Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@Jed, Sorry to have taken so long to respond to your comment.
RE: “Technically FATCA will mean that im meant to tell my bank im “American” plus since i now live in Europe the authorities know i am a dual since this is a question that must be answered upon immigration to Europe – and hence they may tell the banks, etc.”
Why do you have to tell your banks? Why do you think immigration authorities will tell your banks….this seems like a stretch to me?
Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that you do not have a US birthplace, but you have US citizenship, and other citizenship as well. Going on these presumptions, why would your bank find out about your US citizenship unless you voluntarily tell them?
I live in Canada, not Europe, but if I was not born in USA, yet had acquired US citizenship, but also had another citizenship, I would if pressed to prove my non-US status, show the banks my non-US birth certificate and my non-US citizenship card. US citizenship would remain my dirty little secret.
Another point of view (I have no idea, just passing along another link, UK related): http://www.justanswer.com/tax/469tl-us-ira-account-transfer.html
@james leroy
I liquidated my IRA before renouncing for various reasons.
Depending on your US source income and the amount being sold from the IRA, the tax rate may be lower than if you sell later as a non-USP (it was in my case). As a USP, you may be able to take advantage of the standard deduction and deduction for dependents as well, which I think will not be available to you as a non-USP. Depending on your age (below 59 1/2), you may have to pay a 10% penalty for early liquidation, however. (You should have a look on the IRS site for specifics regarding taxation of IRAs and taxation of non-USPs.)
Another reason is that more and more financial institutions in the USA are forcing their customers with a non-US addresss to liquidate their accounts on short notice. See, for example: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/07/22/fidelity-investments-refuses-to-service-to-u-s-persons-abroad/
Finally, I personally wanted to sever all financial ties with the USA as soon as possible, i.e. before renouncing. The USA has already caused me enough damage. I do not want that country to further benefit from my finances at all. Furthermore, I do not trust the USG nor US financial institutions. I wish to have no funds there which may be subject to confiscation in the future, or for which US financial institutions prevent me from accessing or transferring.
@notamused
The most expensive solution (higher US tax rate plus taxed again in current country of residence) but probably the most logical.
@james leroy
As I’ve said, it depends on your situation. For me, it was less expensive to liquidate before renouncing.
Hello Everyone again
As a recap – i plan to *renounce* (not relinquish) my citizenship. Note: these are very different.
Renouncing – requires the US to accept.
Can someone who has also renounced or is very sure confirm the current policy?
What forms will i need to fill out?
Is it these three? or or some?
And when am i no longer a US citizen?
This for definitely:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81607.pdf
Is this form for me or only for those who * relinquish*: ?
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
Note: it asks:
– Do you file US Income or other tax returns?
– What passport do you use to travel to the US?
And then I believe i need to file this form:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8854.pdf
Anything else?
Is it only after they have accepted the above forms that I am no longer a US citizen or is it at the time i renounce?
Many thanks
Jed
@ Jed, most importantly you need this form:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81606.pdf
You also need the Statement of Understanding form. You will also need to take your US passport with you so you can turn that in. It will be returned to you with the statement “Lost US citizenship under the provision of Section 349(a)(5) INA on … (your renunciation date) in it and it will be signed by the Consul or Vice Consul. The cancelled passport will also have holes punched in it. Keep it as a souvenir of your freedom.
You DON’T need the other form as there is no doubt that you are an American. It is only used to determine American status if there is some uncertainty, which there isn’t in your case.
You also don’t need to file the 8854 form yet, although you can if you want. You have up to a year from the date of your renunciation to file. Note that if you file the 8854 and yet still haven’t dealt with any outstanding US issues it doesn’t absolve you from being subject to any fines/penalties, etc, that may accrue from non-compliance.
The date of your renunciation is the day you stop being an American. Obviously the State Department has to make the final approval, but I’ve never heard of them refusing approval once an Embassy/Consulate has taken your Oath. So the effective date will be your renunciation date.
Page 7 of the Consulate Report Directory http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Consulate-Report-Directory-2013.10.10b.pdf explains the forms required for relinquishment and renunciation. Going through and answering questions on all forms is a useful exercise for what you *may* be asked in your renunciation appointment. Also read the experiences reported for others’ renunciation appointments. DS Form 4079 is for relinquishment. There may be a few US consulates that still ask for it, which (I think) is not right, but there it is, the DOS does not have a common standard of procedure from consulate to consulate for US expatriations.
The Form 8854 is the last form you are asked to file, with your last 1040NR, to certify that you are in compliance with your IRS requirements and do or do not meet the definition to be deemed a ‘covered expatriate.’ Not filing the 8854 can also deem you a ‘covered expatriate.’ Do you plan on every again going to the US? This might be a consideration.
There will be others who can give further opinions on this.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/comment-page-15/#comment-591751.
There is a DRAFT 8854 form for 2013. I ‘don’t think’ that you can file the 8854 form until this is final. The form has to be for the correct year, ‘I think.’
In form 8554, does any one know where you fill-in the amount for an IRA (Individual Retirement acount)?
@calgary411, right. Renounce this year (or last, or any year after 2008) and you file your 8854 with your final year (or part year) tax return around april or so of the calendar year after renouncing. As ever with IRS forms they get updated every single year and you need to use the current year version. No filing early, then.
@jgl51, for asset test purposes for so-called covered status? If that, then almost certainly part V, schedule A, line 6. Otherwise, not quite sure what you are asking.
@watcher: Yes. Thanks. I just cannot understand IRS English!!!
And, again, important to point out so done properly,
and, from usxcanada comment some time ago, another thing to know about the filing of 8854:
One other heads-up on Form 8854. From the instructions it appears that you are expected to file two separate copies in two separate directions: original attached to 1040/1040NR, copy to Philadelphia. Could they trick you into being covered for only filing the original with the return? A pretty reasonable “mistake” if you only looked at the Attachment sequence no. of 112 … Gotchas to the right, gotchas to the left, into the maw of the IRS leviathan sailed the hundreds who thought they were escaping!
Your other question, Jed: Is it only after they have accepted the above forms that I am no longer a US citizen or is it at the time i renounce?
You will no longer be a US citizen as of the day of your renunciation — and that date will be reflected on your Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN).
@Jed, I believe your situation is:
1. birthplace other than USA
2. additional citizenship of a country other than USA,
3. no SSN (IRS doesn’t know about you)
4. your bank doesn’t know about your US citizenship
Where is KalC?
KalC is tired of singing the same old song. People like Jed aren’t listening. They’re too intimidated.
Thank you again everyone.
@ Medea and all
It appears i also need to fill in this:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
(according to http://web.archive.org/web/20120818184849/http://www.renunciationguide.com/Resources.html
)
This forms scares me because it asks things like
– Do you file US Income or other tax returns?
– What passport do you use to travel to the US?
Amongst a LOT of other questions.
Can you confirm if this is still valid or not?
Thanks all
Jed
PS for others. This looks to be my list
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81606.pdf
and
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81607.pdf
and “Questionaire”
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
and then within one year:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8854.pdf
@ KalC
Sorry it’s not im not listening, it’s just that seriously every other website/link says something different.
For example.
Some people (here) say we dont need to fill in either of these “Questionaires”
Other sites say this needs filling in AS WELL
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81607.pdf
And others say this one (Instead)
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81609.pdf
It’s just seriously freaking unclear. In reality the govt should have this clearly explained, it’s anything but.
The problem is getting it wrong has big consequences..
Really appreciate everyones patience – i’m almost there 🙂
Jed. WhiteKat and I are saying that you need not bother doing anything.
KaiC and WhiteKat – the problem doing nothing – i fear the “inevitable”, eventually ill be “found” and have even more paper work to do. Every year I’ve another income tax return i’m meant to do, plus face fines, etc. I’ve a family and a life (as a non US citizen) i hate this hanging over my head. 🙁
Jed. Fair enough. Good luck.
Shrug. Good luck Jed!
@Kalc…. Repetition, repetition, repetition. It is how politicians sell a talking point. Your continued repeated input is valued. 🙂
@Jed, no you don’t need the Questionnaire unless the Embassy/Consulate specifically asks for it. It’s not necessary for a renunciation, but a very few places still insist on you filling it out. You only need the Oath and Statement of Understanding.
Book your appointment and the embassy/consulate will send you the necessary paperwork for filling in the forms. Send this back to them a few days before your appointment so they can put all the info on the forms. When you arrive they’ll go over the forms with you to make sure there are no mistakes, mis-spelled names, etc. If it’s all okay you’ll pay the fee, wait a while and then be called up to take the Oath in front of the Consul/Vice Consul. Then you’ll both sign the Oath and Statement and that’s it, over and done.
Jed,
Yours is an OK decision for you and for your family. I pretty much feel the same. We all have to make our own choices based on our level of risk and our need to move on in life without having to fear ‘what next?’. I hope that some regular normal other-country citizens will be able to escape recognition with this awful FATCA and CBT. In my family, I have a husband who was born in Canada and has renounced; he easily leaves it all. I have a daughter, born in Canada, but lived in the US for seven years, having claimed her US citizenship (which was not an easy thing to do with all the paperwork required). She moved back to Canada after a bad car accident, having used up all of her employee benefit health insurance and was running up her VISA with recurring US medical bills. She moved back to Canada and worked as an database contractor for oil & gas companies before deciding that the corporate world was no longer for her (with lingering effects from her accident). She went back to school for two years and now has her own registered massage therapist practice — she’s happy and that is working for her. She has renounced and knows she will never be able to go back to the US as she had her own “corporation” here in Canada before knowing the consequences — that comes with outrageous penalties. She’s paying back her loan for school, growing her business and will eventually be back on her feet. My son, also born in Canada and never registered with the US, never lived in the US, never had any benefit from the US is also a ‘supposed’ US citizen by virtue of being born to me and his father (now deceased), both US citizens who became Canadian citizens in 1975. The US Department of State says he cannot renounce because of his ‘mental incapacity’ and tells me that a Parent, Guardian or Trustee of him or anyone like him cannot renounce on their family member’s behalf, even with a court order. He and those like him are entrapped into US citizenship. Will Canada somehow protect these, our most vulnerable? I don’t know. I have also renounced, but I have the worry of what will happen for my son, as I am his trustee for financial matters.
We all have different stories; we all have to make our own decisions — and they cannot be the same for all. As long as our decisions are based on very thorough research of all of our options, that is OK. No one should rush into anything before thoroughly researching this site and others, then being comfortable with what they have chosen to do.
Isaac Brock has many excellent literate people here to share ideas and provide education, giving support along the way. We can’t provide legal advice, but hopefully what you learn will save unnecessary outrageous expenses in some cases.
I hope we can all stick together and all fight and be here for support to those yet to know of their ‘US indicia’ and all that can mean.
Good luck to you and your family, Jed.