Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@pukekonz On the heels of the blog post you listed above, I just listened to this tonight from On The Media….
MY DETAINMENT STORY OR: HOW I LEARNED TO STOP FEELING SAFE IN MY OWN COUNTRY AND HATE BORDER AGENTS
@pukekonz, My experience (just mine) is that banks are surprisingly lousy at coming up with past info. I think the others are right on the money and it won’t be an issue at all under FATCA. But when I was getting FBAR compliant I had to ask my bank for information about past balances and so on. Now I bank at one of France’s biggest banks and it still took them 2 weeks and 1 person working steadily for them to provide me with the data I needed. Yes, they had computer systems but they weren’t set up in a way to make such a search easy. Most of it was manual. When I saw how much trouble it was for them I was all the more grateful to them that they waived their fees for such things.
On the other hand (and this is a rumor I have heard but the source is pretty reliable) Americans in France are getting audited right now. So might need that info. Never used to happen in the past. The person I spoke with said that this year seems to be particularly bad with what he calls a “rash” of IRS audits.” Oh joy.
@Victoria, thanks for the info. Are you still a US citizen or are you talking from the perspective of someone who is still a citizen and maintaining compliance? I wonder if ex-americans are likely to be audited after they have a CLN. Can anyone comment on such a possibility? Does the IRS think auditing a small fish like me with a CLN, maybe fining me for my incompetence and then expecting to get that money? I would simply not have it and never return to the US, and I am pretty sure I’m no where near worth extraditing over said fines. I’m also wondering if filing FBARs is dangerous in itself? I can’t recall going over 10k in any account so should I just ignore FBARs? Once I have my CLN I’ll hold no foreign bank accounts so can’t see the IRS getting old account info anyways..
Hi pukekonz, Just call me a pin-up girl for Comply and Complain. 🙂
Yes, I’m still a US citizen and I am compliant (just cut my tax service a check for this year’s sacrifice).
The US IRS does have an international presence. The Paris Embassy has an IRS branch which probably explains why we are getting it. It’s a proximity thing.
This is just my .02 on it but I really doubt they would bother auditing someone who has renounced, especially gophers like you and me. I’d feel pretty safe if I had a CLN.
But I don’t have a CLN. However, I am not really worried about getting audited. My filing is up to date, I paid for help and did the best I could. If it happens count on there being a series on my blog with a blow by blow account of the entire business. Hell, I might even be able to get it run in some expat mag. 🙂
@pukekonz, the figure for the FBAR’s is an aggregate one so it’s not just any account, it could be two, three or more that add up to $10,000 together.
I think it’s likely that anyone with a CLN could be audited, why would the State Department bother to pass the info on to the IRS otherwise. After all, you’re supposed to be tax compliant within a certain time after renouncing/relinquishing. Whether they will actually do so for small fry is anyone’s guess. It may depend on how you do it: via the Streamlined program or simply as a quiet disclosure. I’ve used the Streamlined with the help of a tax preparer, mainly because I’ve never filled in a US tax form in my life and would have had no idea where to start. Likely I’ve no income so only needed to back file the FBAR’s. Assuming they match up the CLN info with my Streamlined filing I doubt I’ll be audited.
@Just Me
I wrote to Mark Manson after stumbling across his article on Facebook and dropped him a line suggesting another point to add to the things Americans don’t know about America:
#11 The IRS owns you and will chase you to the corners of the earth for the rest of your life.
I’m hoping I’ll hear back from him as he promises to be an interesting character who could reach a large audience.
@Bubblebustin…
That number 11 would be a good addition, but as you know, people like lists in 10s. 🙂
Ok guys, I am booked in to formalize my relinquishment! Mid Nov. was the earliest they could take me. I have a mix of feelings to say the least, mostly anger based… feeling forced into this like many others. Also angry at the expense it will take me to make all this happen (I must fly to Auckland, stay a night, meet at consulate, fly back etc). With the revenues they bring in you would think skype and digital signatures would be part of the infrastructure. Then there is the back filing I will probably need much assistance with = more money down the drain I don’t have. Anyway, I am eager to get this over with. At least the booking gives me a month to properly fill out the ds-4079 forms. Some of the questions I don’t understand, so I might ask for help in a few days when I start working on it again. I feel a huge level of support just knowing you all are around, not sure I could get through this alone and maintain sanity. Even when all this is done I plan to continue visiting here and do what I can to help. Thanks again 🙂
“Even when all this is done I plan to continue visiting here and do what I can to help.”
@ pukekonz
That’s we like to hear. Good luck as you start down the path to freedom.
@ pukekonz
I have a friend who used to live in the Dunedin area who once raised some pooks from eggs. That was quite awhile ago but I think about my e-mail exchanges with her at that time whenever I see your pen name.
@Medea and @Watcher
Thanks so much for your comments – thank you everyone, like pukekonz it is a relief to get help here.
I’ve not yet made up my mind what Ill do but ive now got more information to make an informed decision.
Much appreciated.
Jed
@ pukekonz
Will you also be filling in a 8854 form? and past tax returns?
Thanks
@jed, I am relinquishing so at this point I am only instructed to bring the ds-4079 and DS-4081 they will be signed on site and I guess after that I must begin the painful journey of tax compliance..
@Jed, you’re very welcome. The main thing is to take your time, get over the initial feelings of panic/fear and work out the best way forward for your particular circumstances. Research thoroughly before making any decisions. If you have more questions then ask away and we’ll do our best to guide you.
@ pukekonz
One more question if i may.
How were you able to relinquish it? (vs renounce)? I thought you were a dual citizen since birth?
Thank you
Jed
@Jed,
Lucky you! Not born in USA, and no SSN. Please explain why you think you have to do anything at all?
Did you tell your bank you were American? If so, find a new bank and show them your Australian passport with Australian birthplace, and keep mum about the US connection.
@ Jed, not pukekonz isn’t a dual citizen. He gained NZ citizenship back in 2008 which is when he committed his relinquishing act.
Forget about relinquishing. It’s not possible for you and wouldn’t affect any outstanding tax issues either.
FATCA has been cited as a reason for Americans renouncing their citizenship; but is it even legal?
http://legal.blurgroup.com/blog/is-fatca-illegal-us-treasury-changes-expat-taxation/
Not only is the paperwork involved brain-meltingly complex and causing expats to spend a small fortune on accountancy fees (often to find that they don’t actually owe any taxes anyway), but there are some questions as to how much it steps on the toes of individual country’s taxation laws.
This may not be that relevant to most people here (been a long while since I went to the States!), but I thought it worth mentioning. I got it from the English Forum website where someone had posted it so I checked on the ESTA form. The application form now includes the required to answer question “country of birth” as part of the application process so even if your passport doesn’t show your US birthplace you’ll have to tell the US if you need to apply. Apparently it’s only been on the form for around a year or so. So even more reason to get your hands on that CLN!
I like that photo of the coin eating machine (parking meter) with Obama’s picture on it, Just Me.
@ WhiteKat
Like so many people have said it’s just a matter of time before i get hit with having to fill in tones of paperwork (every year for the rest of my life) plus deal with FATCA.
I’ve nothing to hide but the cost of complaince is a huge pain. Living “overseas” (as i have my whole life) i.e. not in the US now im faced with difficulties in getting loans/etc.
Technically FATCA will mean that im meant to tell my bank im “American” plus since i now live in Europe the authorities know i am a dual since this is a question that must be answered upon immigration to Europe – and hence they may tell the banks, etc.
So at least renouncing now means i wont have to worry about this stuff going forward.
Curious to any feedback you have.
Thank you
Aaron doesn’t think any of you should renounce, but rather just pay your “Fair Share” I take that to mean he is a BIG believer in Citizenship taxation.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/retired-abroad-get-ready-for-fatca-2013-10-18?pagenumber=1
what happens after renunciation if that person (living outside the USA) still has an IRA (retirement account) in the USA. Any issue drawing on it and how is it taxed?
(I assume that this person does not qualify as a covered expat and does not need to pay an exit tax).
Any one know how to find an answer to this question
Here is some information on moving it to an RRSP in Canada — and other options, some more costly in tax than others.
http://pacificapartners.com/blog/2012/09/06/transferring-your-401k-to-an-rrsp/
Interesting link, thank you. That person is not Candian so only the first options are valid. But I am still interested to find out how high is the witholding tax (I have heard 30%) compared to cashing out before renunciation.