Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@pukekonz
There is some wisdom in greyowl’s and KalC comments. If you have no assets in the States, are they really going to do anything about a minnow like you if you fail to file your back tax forms and the 8854? Reason would say, probably not. You might pose that question to Phil Hodgens on one of his blog posts and he might render an opinion that wouldn’t cost you anything.
http://hodgen.com/tax-law-is-considered-dangerous/
The IRS has so many homeland Whales now, they are overly burdened just processing the ones with the most blubber. You are truly throw back material now.
As a service to the other slumbering kiwis, I think you need to be contacting your politicians about what the IRD is about to do to some 60,000 (guestimate) kiwis with U.S connections. They need to channel their anger and sorrow about the loss of the America’s cup more appropriately at the losses coming from FATCA.
http://www.ird.govt.nz/taxagents/tax-technical-info/ta-fatca/
I know another Kiwi who is now writing finance Minister McClay. He has given up with IRD as they aren’t going to change their FATCA compliance view no matter what is written. Also write to Winston Peters (NZ First) , David Cunliffe (Labour) and Russel Norman (Greens). Maybe if they get several letters from different people they will start to take notice..
Point out the plight of the Kiwis about to be sacrificed on the alter of FATCA.
Has anybody come up with a tick sheet to relinquish:
1) read newspaper & find out that I should have been filing US tax returns & FBAR’s check
2) Freak Out! check
3) Big fight with Canadian born husband because US wife didn’t do her due diligence check
4) Get on the phone to try to find out proper process / get conflicting answers/ if any check
5) See #2 check
6) Apply for Canadian Citizenship check
7) Find an accountant familiar with US returns, file 10 years + FBARS check
8) Have big fight with Canadian husband about providing jt banking info to foreign govt check
9) Wait, nothing back from IRS-How do you know if returns received & correct? check
10) 27 months later receive Notice To Appear-To Write a Citizenship Test check
11) Pass test & interview check
12) Wait for Invitation to Citizenship Ceremony
What’s next? How do I find out if tax returns are correct? Relinquish or Renounce? Help!
@grayowl, et al
No foreign government can collect taxes or penalties directly from Canadian residents within Canada. Only the government of Canada can collect taxes here. Canadian courts historically do not enforce foreign tax revenue claims, especially against Canadian residents in Canada.
Under Canada – US Tax Treaty, the Canadian government will NOT assist in collecting US taxes or penalties from any Canadian citizen, unless the tax debt arose before they became a Canadian citizen. This was reported by Don Cayo in Vancouver Sun and stated repeatedly by Finance Minister Jim Flaherty in letters to Canadians.
For more information see article titled: “US Tax Collection in Canada” in Canadian Tax Highlights, the newsletter of Canadian Tax Foundation September 2011. This is subscription only, but libraries and tax professionals have a copy.
Article documented the difficulty of enforcing US tax claims in Canada:
– Canadian courts have not enforced US tax revenue claims in Canada
– Under the Canada-US tax treaty, Canada Revenue Agency cannot collect US taxes from Canadian citizens, unless the tax claim proceeded their date of citizenship.
Final summary paragraph:
“In summary, a Canadian citizen need have little concern about the collection of US tax, interest, and ancillary penalties. However, a US taxpayer who is a Canadian resident and not a Canadian citizen and who owes US tax, interest, and penalties may face collection thereof by the CRA pursuant to treaty article XXVI A. It is extremely unlikely that Canadian citizens or residents will have to face collection of FBAR penalties, except in the very unlikely event that those penalties may be characterized as registrable civil judgments.”
– “US Tax Collection in Canada”, published in “Canadian Tax Highlights” Vol. 19, Number 9, Sept 2011-10-14, Canadian Tax Foundation.
Authors: Erin L. Frew and S. Natasha of Reid Thorsteinssons LLP, Vancouver.
Atticus in Canada, congratulations on wending your way through all the US Unnecessary paperwork. I do not think anybody there keeps track of that. I paid $450 plus change to renounce this month but you got a better deal. I am a bit behind, in China, the city of Xian. The terracotta army would govern the USA better than the current government.
Pukekonz Listen to yourself! Extradition! Involve the UN! Fined 10X your net worth! fatca has no ‘deep powers’ to turn over info from non US cits.
Listen to Just Me. You have relinquished. You are no longer a US cit. You don’t HAVE to do anything more. You could go fishing or sea kayaking or golfing instead.
WhiteKat. IRS audits are expensive and bothersome for the IRS. They don’t have the resources or time to audit minnows living out of country. At worst someone might get a computer generated letter asking for info. As a very wise man (I think it was Dan) once posted on IBS ‘only tell them what they already know’
Congrats, Atticus! Do your shoulders feel about a tonne lighter now?
@PO’d Yankee,
Unlike CRA, IRS does not send out an acknowledgement that your return is accepted as filed. I don’t know if you can look up your file on-line or not– someone else here would know, though.
Note. You do not need to be tax compliant at the time of relinquishment or renunciation of citizenship – and the consulate won’t even ask if you are (they don’t care). IRS requires one to be in tax compliance and to file the exit tax form by June 15th of the year following their expatriation.
Relinquish. Immigration and Nationalities Act, s 349(a)(1). This is where you choose to terminate your US citizenship upon acquiring Canadian citizenship. Sounds like what you want to do. To have the US recognise this, though, you have to notify them of it, which requires filling out some forms and going to a consulate. You will get a certificate of loss of nationality ( a few months later), indicating citizenship terminated date you acquired Canadian citizenship. No fee.
Renounce. Immigration and Nationalities Act, s. 349(a)(5). A person is a dual citizen but no longer wants to remain a US citizen. They make an oath of renunciation at a US consulate. Also requires filling out some forms. They will get a certificate of loss of nationality (a few months later), indicating citizenship terminated date of the oath of renunciation. Fee is $450.
Here’s a couple of links on the site with some information about this.
The Consulate Report Directory is currently 138 pages. It’s mainly people’s reports of their experiences expatriating and is arranged by consulate location. It also includes some general info and links to the Dept of State forms.
Also this thread, Renunciation and Reqlinuishment: What are the Differences? Is there a Difference?
Congratulations, Atticus!
Thanks for your report, too! That good to hear more confirmation that use of a US passport is not necessarily fatal and to read your other observations as well. Super that you spoke with others waiting, such as the lady who was given completely erroneous information by H&R Block, and were able to point them towards Brock.
Glad all went well (not surprised, though 🙂 A great relief, I’m sure, to have finally and officially cut the chains after these past two years!
@pacifica777, with the following link, one can check if a return is accepted. If one files online, then it will be accepted in a week. Mine says: “Your tax return is still being processed”, since I snail mailed the papers this time:
https://sa1.www4.irs.gov/irfof/lang/en/irfofgetstatus.jsp
@atticus BELATED CONGRATULATIONS!!! We’ve been connecting via various website and email chains now for two years, and I’m so glad you’ve got some closure. Also delighted that your experience with the Toronto consulate was as good as everyone else’s has been. The folks in that building really do “get it” and have since Day One, the famous one-off group interview they had in October 2011 for about 25 people all of whom wanted to renounce or relinquish.
And yes, if Toronto says your relinquishment is a Go, the CLN will be back-dated to the day your became a Canadian. Toronto has been very consistent on that in every case I know, and the State Department and US Embassy here in Ottawa was consistent on that in my own case when in late 1976 they dated my CLN for my 1975 citizenship date. There is a mound of precedents here, and I can’t imagine DOS would try to violate that. I know that Toronto hasn’t, in the several relinquishment CLN cases I know of from that consulate in the past two years (including my wife’s and hers was backdated to the 1970s as were two others I know of here in Ottawa, who went through Toronto) I can’t see them having a problem with a back-dating to a more recent citizenship date.
@ pukekonz — Same applies to you re dating of the CLN, I hope … basically the draft CLN is prepared in your local consulate, I hope they “get it” and it might not hurt to nudge them a bit, gently of course, at the end of your interview, on this point. Re taxes: as noted above, Canada has made it VERY clear that they aren’t about to collect late- or non-filing penalties, never mind actual tax liabilities, on behalf of the IRS, against anyone who was a Canadian citizen during the years in question, or for any years at all if the person became a Canadian citizen before November 1998 (that was in an amendment to the joint tax treaty in 2007). I urge you to look into whether New Zealand has a joint tax treaty with the US, and see what if anything it says about collections against citizens of the country of residence. Be prepared however to have to slog through verbiage that almost makes the IRS instruction manuals and tax code look like models of clear concise English prose (NOT!).
@ various Kiwis above:
Does your country have some counterpart to Canada’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Section 15 of which prohibits discrimination against residents (never mind citizens) on the basis of national or ethnic origin? If so, you might get some mileage both in the press and with politicians by pointing out that any FATCA agreement by your government that hands over private banking information to the tax agency of a foreign country, but only for US-origin Kiwis and not others, sets a precedent for second-class citizenship which could affect ALL immigrants to New Zealand, not just US immigrants. (And, as with Canada, if you go back far enough in New Zealand, everyone except aboriginal/first-nations persons is a descendant of an immigrant.) Do they really want that demographic hiding in the weeds waiting to massacre them in the next election over something like that, especially in marginal ridings?
@schubert1975 and “various Kiwi’s above”
The relevant legislation in New Zealand is the Human Rights Act 1993 which prohibits discrimination on the grounds of “ethnic or national origins, which includes nationality or citizenship’. ”
When NZ banks made initial comments regarding FATCA, they cited this law AS A VERY SERIOUS BARRIER to FATCA compliance!
Is the NZ government somehow exempt from it? Has it been changed or suspended?
Atticus,
I’m adding my congratulations to your Toronto success in relinquishment of US citizenship. My best wishes and thanks for all of your good work.
@schubert1975 @Wondering @kiwis
The NZ Human Rights Act that you refer to has not been changed and and yes, it is equivalent to the Canadian Charter. I have written to the NZ Treasury department to highlight this on several occasions and they are well aware of the issues. Their latest response to me was as follows:
“Inland Revenue has sought legal advice on the status of any intergovernmental agreement (IGA) and its interaction with various aspects of New Zealand law. Advice received is subject to legal privilege and is being withheld under section 9(2)(h) of the OIA”
It is disgusting that they are consulting lawyers on how to circumvent well established New Zealand Privacy and Human Rights laws, but that is what is happening. I think the direction they are going is to require the banks to request information on the tax status of everyone, not just USP. So, they can ask the question “Are you tax resident in any other countries?” or something like that.
However, we know that they (the government) will still have to break these laws somehow to pass the data to the USG.
As Just Me says, I encourage any Kiwi reading this to write to the Minister of Revenue, Todd McClay (todd.mcclay@national.org.nz). Copy the IRD (fatca@ird.govt.nz) for good measure.
@OsGood Thanks for the info. It is pretty scary to see countries bowing to such pressures and essentially giving up their sovereignty in the process. Recently the FBI used NZ officials to raid Kim Dotcom. The FBI said jump and NZ gov said how high? Luckily this blew up in their faces and the injustice is being handled in the courts -in favour of dotcom. Let’s hope this sets some sort of precedence that the NZ gov will now think twice before being commanded by a foreign nation and acting on it. I’m glad I’ll be doing my relinquishment asap because I can see expats soon to begin renouncing and relinquishing by the 10,000’s. The back log will be immense when this happens, who knows how long it will then take to get the CLN issued.
The situation is indeed different if you never have any reason to go to the U.S. If you do as I do, then you will want to decide if you are going to be fully filing all those forms. As for me I do have to go there to see my family from time to time. I want to file whatever I’m required to but, not file what is not absolutely necessary to be free and clear and be treated as law abiding Canadian when crossing the border. All indications are right now that this will be the case. I do worry however with those renunciation numbers climbing what the future response is going to be from the U.S. I do not think they are going to say “Oh, we’ve caused a serious problem here, we’d better fix this.” They will just get more and more punitive to hide what they’ve done and to silence people. However, the more immoral their actions in this matter the more likely that history will show what they have done as truly horrible.
@pukekonz
From your interactions with the consulate, did you get any impression of the volume of requests to renounce in New Zealand? I would think it is still relatively few, but sure to be rising.
@osgood & @pukekonz I’ve been warning everyone I know who is a U.S. person here in New Zealand most just want to bury their head in the sand and wait for their execution date I guess, when the IRD recently put out the FATCA webpage I sent it to them and most replied that their accountants say it doesn’t apply to them or the U.S. is out for different group of people and not them.
If the U.S. doesn’t goes bust before FATCA is implemented the millions of non compliant U.S. citizens living outside the country will be cannon fodder to fill the U.S. treasury coffers, its pathetic to see the way the U.S. has gone and other countries assisting them, would they do this for any other country, have we simply become property of the state, why doesn’t the IRD have a notice for North Koreans living in New Zealand that they have a duty to return to North Korea to stand trial for escaping.
@statelessman
It;s good to know there is at least one other kindred soul out there in this country. The most amazing thing is that the NZ treasury says “FATCA does not impose new taxing rights”. They just don’t understand that FATCA has exposed the immorality of CBT and that this will be a future drain on the Treasury of New Zealand and all other countries that go along with this. Now it is out of the closet, deemed USP in New Zealand will be on the hook for self employment tax (no relief for NZ citizens), phantom capital gains, PFICs etc. Not to mention fines for prior non-compliance and FBAR penalties.
Why do the governments not appreciate this?
Have you written or emailed Treasury and/or the Revenue Minister? If so, I’m interested in their response?
@osgood I haven’t wrote them directly, but I’ve had counsel make several inquiries and it seems the NZ government is just looking for a way to sign the IGA at this point and it’s basically a done deal.
I’ve been advising through various channels that they should carve out a six month period after the IGA is signed where any dual citizen can renounce U.S. citizenship without penalty for past actions but they must do it within that period.
In the end I’m sure Canada and New Zealand will give in and just hand over these people with full knowledge of the cost without a care for them in the world, as long as USD is the worlds reserve currency the U.S. call pull all sort of crap.
Government is the problem, the problem can not be fixed by Government decree.
Just to contribute – renounced in Paris this summer: one appointment, everyone was friendly and polite, and I got my CLN in less than 3 weeks although I was told the wait was 4 months.
@Atticus, I too am so pleased that your relinquishment went so smoothly for you and that they were really pleasant. I also remember you from the other forum too. You’ve come a long way Baby!! 😀
@atticusincanada
Congratulations and thank you for posting the details. Especially the explaination about the waiting time for the CLN.That reassures me as I am waiitng for my CLN, now close to 2 months while the consulate told me 4-6 weeks.
My reasons for renouncing were that I was naturalised US as a child, but never really felt “american” and as soon as I could (at 18) I reclaimed my original citizenship. Actually I wondered if this could be considered a “relinquishing act” but since it was so long ago, and I continued to hold a US passport, as a dual, I decided the best course was to pay the fee and renounce. Before renouncing I filed 6 years of tax papers and fbars – I had been ignorant of these obligations, and like so many others I owe no US tax, since I pay high taxes where I live and am just an “average wage- earner”. I also went through the confusion of trying to decide the best way to do this, and ended up doing it myself, as I could see that what the online tax services did was the same as what I could do, since my financial life was fairly uncomplicated and I luckily have somewhat of a talent for reading complicated forms. It did take me a long time and I still haven’t heard from the IRS and hope matters stay that way!
What a wake-up call it has been. I was so lucky I came across IBS, and wish “US persons, present and ex” good luck with the challenges!
@Osgood, Stateless, et al
If the NZ government is lawyering up, then NZ citizens affected by FATCA must lawyer up as well. Just because the government of NZ has consulted lawyers does not make their actions lawful. Only a court can decide that. And if 1,000 Kiwis chipped in $100 each to plaintiffs’ group action, you can buy a lot of legal advice. Surely there must an activist law firm in NZ that specializes in high profile constitutional or conflict-of-laws or human rights causes. This is a landmark decision case for the right lawyer.
The argument of so-called “tax residency” is weak. It is specious and remote to claim that a citizen of NZ (or Canada) who was born in the US decades ago, and subsequently has no actual tie of residence or economic activity there, is still somehow a “tax resident”. The concept of “tax residency” put forth by FATCA apologists is build on a foundation of sand: national origin discrimination. That is because the definition is based primarily upon place of birth, and only US law defines tax residency based upon place of birth. So a remote and extra jurisdictional foreign law defines certain Kiwis (or Canadians) as “tax residents” of foreign state because they were born there, regardless of thei NZ citizenship, residency and economic activity. Laws defining US citizenship have no standing outside of the US; only a government can define who is a citizen of that state.
This can be argued: it is a feudal concept, and it is certainly unusual, because only two states in the world assert such a claim, and the penalties asserted by the foreign state for violations of its “birthplace” concept of tax residency are unusual, disproportionate and cruel by any measure.
Further, it can be argued that the right to assert and enforce revenue claims is fundamental to the individual sovereignty of the state, and that the assertion of tax residency upon certain NZ citizens by an external foreign state, based solely upon their birthplace there, is a violation of NZ’s sovereignty.
In Canada, landmark issues such as legal abortion, gay rights, the definition of hate speech, and safe injection sites for heroin addicts were all decided in high Court, not by politicians.
Another BBC reporter has contacted me about a story to be run on Monday.
He is looking for people who have already renounced and are willing to talk about it on the radio. (Swisspinoy? Pukekonz?)
Send me a note ASAP at v_ferauge@yahoo.com.