Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2
US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.
(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.) Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”
This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).
This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation. They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.
Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database. Your input will definitely help others.
@ andie
I would just add that you make appointments in Calgary via e-mail not online booking. They give you all the information you need, including a questionnaire, prior to your appointment date.
Calgary-ACS@state.gov
Shubert, thank you for your reply. I got no confirmation of my appointment but, won’t worry about it and just go. I have the free version of software that would allow me to fill in forms. I’ve done it with other forms but, when I tried with the versions on the state dept. web site it didn’t work. I don’t see any reason why I won’t be allowed to relinquish. Since taking Canadian citizenship I did not vote, pay tax, but, I did travel on a U.S. passport because I was forced to. I traveled to the U.S. at Christmas and attempted to cross on my Canadian passport. I was told I could not do this and to hand over my U.S. passport. I explained that I was Canadian and was told no matter that, I had to give over my U.S. passport. I did not use it because I wished to continue my citizenship after taking Canadian citizenship.
AtticusinCanada, When did you email? I have emailed with Calgary and had to wait a day or so for a reply but have always gotten one. I did have to follow up once but generally, they get back to you.
Atticus and YogaGirl,
I don’t think the good and effective email communication / pre-questionnaire we’ve seen with the US Consulate in Calgary is the same as any other, including Toronto. Toronto has proven to be on of the better consulates to deal with though. Head and shoulders over the Vancouver US Consulate.
Successful resolution of U.S. citizenship issue
This is a more complete statement about our successful resolution of the question of our U.S. citizenship. I have posted information about our taxation issues and the citizenship issue on the “About Isaac Brock Society” forum.
We are now retired senior citizens. We are Canadian citizens, having arrived in Canada in 1968. We obtained Canadian citizenship in 1974. We were eager to become Canadians.
At that time we were warned that if we became Canadians we would lose our U.S. citizenship. Despite that understanding, we became Canadians and relinquished our U.S. citizenship. We were no longer U.S. citizens. (Years later we have discovered that that position of the U.S. had changed and we were considered dual citizens.)
We followed the advice of our Isaac Brock Society friends Pacifica777, KalC and Blaze and had an interview with the U.S. consulate.
We submitted a letter applying for a Certificate of Loss of Nationality back dated to 1974 in which we provided documentation to show that we had relinquished our U.S. citizenship in 1974 and included the text of the oath to Queen Elizabeth II we took in 1974. They wanted our birth certificates, marriage certificate, Certificate of Canadian Citizenship, Canadian Passport (we asserted that we never had a U.S. passport), Forms DS-4079 and DS-4081.
The consulate official agreed. We were not required to swear an oath and not required to pay the renunciation fee. We are expecting a Certificate of Loss of Nationality back dated to 1974 to be mailed to us in 3 to 4 months.
@ Kingston,
I’m glad to hear that everything has worked out for you! I was glad that IRS saw the light and refunded your money, which you wrote about on the “About the Isaac Brock Society” thread. Today, it’s great to read that all went well at the consulate and that you’ll be getting your CLNs showing your citizenship ended when it did in 1974. Must have been a pretty horrible two years til this got straightened out. Now, you can get on with — back to — your lives! Thanks for sharing your story and the news of your consulate visit!
@pacifica
Can you please tell more about the situation with the person who was called a week after the relinquishment meeting.
I got a call today, will be calling back tomorrow. I new there would be questions but I thought we cleared them up when I was there.
@Nomad,
I’m sorry, I don’t remember the details. Best wishes for your phone call – hopefully it’s some minor thing that you’ll straighten out right away.
Well, I’m a bit annoyed as I was hoping to relinquish next week at the auckland NZ consulate. I booked in for notarization services to have the appropriate forms witnessed primarily the ds-4079 etc. I had to be in Auckland to visit family and were going to try to kill 2 birds with one stone. On confirming I wanted to relinquish at my appointment they sent this back to me:
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“As the appointment you have made is to renounce your citizenship, we will not be able to see you for this on Friday. Notarial appointments are not for signing renounciation documents. Renouncing your citizenship is a more involved process that requires a separate appointment with an officer, as time permits. I will pass your request to our officers here, and in due course you will be contacted, and the ramifications of renouncing your citizenship explained to you. After this conversation, and if you still wish to renounce your citizenship, you need to contact us again to make an appointment. I will cancel the appointment you have made for Friday.”
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Once again my embassy refuses to acknowledge the relinquishment process. They say I have to “renounce”, bring in my $450 and do the oath.
I have responded with:
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“It looks like it will be somewhat difficult to arrange all this as I live in Dunedin and will need to make a special trip to do this (not much in the way of finances). I don’t suppose these things can be done by Skype or by some other legal methods of liaising from Dunedin? In any case, I have been told by many who have undergone this process there are clear differences between renunciation and relinquishment. I know several who have “relinquished” at the Toronto and Melbourne consulates. Are you able to confirm that I would be able to relinquish at the NZ consulate? These are the main differences between renunciation and relinquishment:
renunciation:
appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
sign an oath of renunciation
relinquishment:
You have committed acts that result in the loss of your citizenship. This revolves primarily around completing the DS-4079: Questionnaire – Information for Determining Possible Loss of U.S. Citizenship. In my case obtaining NZ citizenship, and pledging an oath to NZ are 2 acts that result in my loss of US citizenship. I am also told this does not require a fee like renunciation does.
If the NZ consulate is unable to accommodate a relinquishment I suppose I will have to book in with the Melbourne consulate (where I know several Americans have relinquished and obtained the CLN’s). The flights are not much more for me to go to Melbourne, but it would be less of a journey to do this in Auckland. I just want to ensure that if I pay the expense for a special trip to Auckland to do this, that I am booked in for a relinquishment process via the ds-4079. Anything you can provide me to clarify this process will help me decide when and which embassy to book in with.”
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I am not sure what to do if they continue to refuse to acknowledge I want to relinquish and not renounce? I’ll see if they respond to my above email but I’m not very hopeful. If they still ignore my wish to relinquish I will phone the Melbourne embassy and suppose I will be forced to fly to Melbourne to get this done. Sigh x1000
pukekonz,
You must relay to them that you, in fact, have relinquished and you are now making the claim of that relinquishment so you can get your Certificate of Loss of Nationality.
calgary411 this makes total sense. I have relayed that to them and will await their response. Failing them willing to work with me I’ll take it up with Melbourne. I’ll let you guys know what happens either way. It’s nice not to be alone in this struggle.. It should not be this way. IMO if you obtain citizenship in another country, by default you immediately lose your US citizenship, unless you formally declare that you still want it.
@PukekoNZ,
This is ridiculous. It looks like a clerk is sending you out boiler-plate — unless there’s something really nefarious going on at Auckland. Have you received any communication from an officer insisting on renunciation?
Obviously you need to be sure they will do an s.1 relinquishment before you make a long, expensive trip.
I can’t tell if it’s a clueless clerk that isn’t routing your correspondence to an appropriate person, or if they’re clueless at officer level, or trying to prevent relinquishment.
Another possibility (besides going to Melbourne), if you don’t get a sensible reply from Auckland but prefer to go to Auckland, you could try contacting DoS in Washington, Brett Pomainville, Division Chief for American Citizen Services,East Asia and Pacific Zone, at 202-485-6261. This is the office that handles CLNs from your area. Sorry I don’t have an e-mail address. He or someone in his office could contact Auckland. So far the few times a Brocker has had to contact DC with a problem, they were very helpful very quickly.
Thanks Pacifica777, hugely helpful info. I will see if I hear back from them with something other than boiler plate responses. So this procedure is called an “s.1 relinquishment”. I suppose talking to “Tim Ponce” he could ultimately contact them in Auckland and simply say “this guy need an s.1 reliquishment done, please accommodate him” and it will be sorted via a single appt. I’ll update when I know something more.
The latest response:
“I am getting an opinion from the State Department for you, and will let you know when I receive a reply.”
I am thinking the NZ consulate here has never done a relinquishment, so maybe when they get the proper details from the state dept. things will go more smoothly.
@ pukekonz
Good luck and I’m so happy to see Brockers jumping in to help. My best ever e-pal used to live in Dunedin (now in Wanaka).
@ all
In case you are wondering, a “pukeko” is a beautiful NZ bird described as the “rising star in the Kiwi animal kingdom”.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10823220
@PukekoNZ,
Okay. It’s starting to sound better. Like finally someone at the consulate really read what you’ve written and is doing something about it. A shame they are not familiar with the matter — or at least didn’t really read your earlier e-mails and act then — but at least it should work out fine when they hear back from State as it is a standard procedure.
Here’s some information regarding s.(1) relinquishment.
The full text of s. 349(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act is here. There’s 7 ways to lose citizenship, but I’ll just paste (1) and (5) here:
These are two of the procedure manuals used by the consulates for CLN cases, which deal with s. (1)’s:
7 FAM 1200 Loss and Restoration of US Citizenship
7 FAM 1220 Developing a Loss-of-Nationality Case
There’s links to other DoS manuals in the Consulate Report Directory.
@pukekonz
I would laugh every time I read your name, thinking you made it up one morning when you had a hangover. I’ve been educated now to what it really is, but I’ll still laugh anyway.
@pukekonz
Here in Melbourne we got asked at the consulate whether we got our Oz citizenship “with the intent to lose US citizenship”. Declaring that specific intent might be an important element if you’re relinquishing. We were renouncing ourselves rather than relinquishing, but the helpful aide at the consulate explained about relinquishing to us anyway; they appear to do a fair number of relinquishments here.
Someone on this site will be hearing from the Melbourne consulate soon and finding out if they require two visits there to relinquish like they insist on for everyone renouncing. The two visits are definitely an inconvenience; we were required to do that ourselves, two visits one month apart.
A shame you have to make the long trip up to Auckland; it’s unfortunate there isn’t any consulate on the South Island since that would be heaps more convenient for you. If you were stuck coming across the ditch it would probably cost as much or more as paying the fee to renounce; definitely it’d cost more if two visits were a mandatory requirement here. First you’d have to verify whether Melbourne will process non-Australians of course. They likely would, but in other countries that often is not the case. Probably have to wait a month or so for an appointment here too; this consulate only processes loss of citizenship stuff on Fridays when it’s otherwise closed to the general public. Yet they were helpful, friendly, and seemed very competent.
With any luck you’ll get a good response from Auckland though so none of that hassle and expense would even be worth considering. Very best of luck with that and thanks for keeping people posted about what’s happening.
For what it’s worth, just found out now from someone that Melbourne will do relinquishments in just one appointment (rather than the two that they required for renouncing).
@ozteddies and all;
It sometimes makes me tear up and get a bit choked up when I see how much people are helping each other here.
Strange the amount of effort this demands.
It continues to be a shameful mess that reflects so badly on the US.
@badger
It does have that underground railroad feel to it, doesn’t it? I suspect that our efforts could be seen as subversive by some, heroic to others.
Ok good news guys, I seem to be making progress with the NZ embassy. The latest reply:
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I have received a reply from the State Department. You will need to appear in person at the consulate in Auckland, and submit Forms DS4079 and DS4081. You need to sign these forms before the Consular Officer. An officer from the Consulate will call you to discuss the ramifications of relinquishment, and if you still wish to proceed, you will need to contact us again so appointment can be made.
The email I received stated the following:
We can accept your evidence that you committed the potentially expatriating act of naturalizing in New Zealand and that you did so voluntarily with the intention of losing your U.S. citizenship. However, only Washington can approve loss of nationality cases and your evidence will have to be sent to Washington, DC for approval. Please bring proof that you naturalized in New Zealand and complete but do not sign Form DS 4079. Please look at this link: http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html.
Mr. xxxxxx needs to complete the Statement of Understanding, DS 4081.
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Unfortunately it looks like I will have to take a special trip to Auckland to make all this happen. I suppose I will just fly up, taxi to the embassy, sign the docs, taxi back to airport and fly home. You would think in this day and age tools like Skype and online document signing tools could be used. Oh well, I’m not going to push my luck. The expense to get it over with will be worth it. Thanks to all and I will post updates as I have them. I might need some help filling out certain parts of the ds-4079 so will post back then.. Thanks again to all!
Ok, I’ve had the “repercussions of losing US citizenship” chat with them on the phone. It was more a barrage of fear and terror hurled at me, I guess in an attempt to frighten the hell out of me and change my mind. Everything from “you’ll be on your own when a major earthquake hits or civil unrest” to “The IRS will place you under extreme scrutiny” and “You may never be able to enter the US again as a foreigner should something terrible happen to a family member or friend in the US”. It really irks me the way they go about this because it really is a fear tactic. It surely does not to be in such a context! How about “Ok Mr. X, these are the rights afforded to US citizens living abroad… x… x…. and x… do you understand that will will give up these rights? I say “yes” and we’re done. Instead it’s more like “Mr. X, you’re gonna die if you do this!!!! Are you INSANE!!!???”. Well, I am not scared and looking forward to my true freedome once this is all over with.
@pukekonz, I can’t believe they talked to you that way. From what I’m hearing from everyone here in Ontario, no one has had such an experience! “Extreme scrutiny.” What? “On your own major earthquake, civil unrest.” That’s a bit over the top to say the least since “Never be able to enter the U.S.” I think someone needs to inform them that many of the things they are saying to you is not the way relinquishments are being done elsewhere. There’s nothing to say you are going to be under “extreme scrutiny” anywhere that I have read. There is nothing to say you cannot enter the U.S. if you are not a covered expat. I think the way you were treated is shameful. You were fully within your rights to relinquish without all this fear mongering being necessary at all.
My relinquishment date fast approaching. I feel very lucky to be going to a consulate in Ontario.
What you hoped they would say is what they in fact said to me in London. I’m sure some of us in Canada have had neutral responses too. After all, we are adults and don’t need to be treated like children. Too bad about the fear tactics. I’m sorry for you that it happened. I haven’t been under any extreme scrutiny from the IRS, or at least if I have, I don’t know about it. I hope the rest of the process goes well.