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Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2

US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2

Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress.

(We are starting Part 2 as Part 1 has now over 1,000 comments.)  Link to “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1”

This Relinquishment and Renunciation database corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory, which tracks individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.

Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.

Please submit information in the comments below (or someone can contact you privately if you leave a message).

This database and the Consulate Report Directory have proven valuable resources for those new to the subject of relinquishment and renunciation.  They can see numbers for and read others’ experiences of relinquishment or renunciation at various US consulates throughout the world — as reported by participants of the Isaac Brock site.

Thanks for your addition to the Relinquishment and Renunciation database.  Your input will definitely help others.

1,470 thoughts on “Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 2”

  1. Montreal Consulate confirms my appointment…for “renunciation”.

    They confirmed in these words, and below there message were my original messages stressing relinquishment, not renunciation :

    We have a tracing on all of your email exchanges. I see that you have the information required. We’ll see you on the 28th to open your file.

    Couldn’t help answering with a polite rebuke :

    Thank for the confirmation. I will be there.

  2. (continuation of the above carry-over from part 1 thread)
    As to the information you sent, it was about renunciation, and I asked about relinquishment. I will assume that the personnel I will meet understand the difference.
    Thanks again.

    I know it’s probably just some ignorant clerk, but before my retirement I was a manager in a situation where it was very important that the clerks give accurate info and refer questions to the proper professionals. I would given an official disciplinary notice to someone answering like that.

  3. Data.gov, a US government web site devoted to publication of government datasets, has approved consideration of a suggestion that it publish “a monthly or quarterly report of the numbers of Certificates of Loss of Nationality of the United States issued by the Department of State.” The suggestion is open for comments at
    https://explore.data.gov/nominate/2412
    Positive support for the suggestion would be welcome.

  4. Found this in 7 FAM 1220 while preparing for my relinquisment visit to tne Montreal consulate.

    Has anyone noticed this before? It says the presumption of intent to maintain American citizenship by a person committing certain expatriating acts ( like acquiring a foreign nationality is under revision. Could this mean they intend to reverse the presumption?

    7 FAM 1222 ADMINISTRATIVE PRESUMPTION
    (CT:CON-407; 06-29-2012)
    a. In light of the U.S. Supreme Court decisions in Vance v. Terrazas (1980) and Afroyim v. Rusk (1967) (summarized in 7 FAM 1200 Appendix B), in order to expedite the resolution of cases, in 1990 the Department adopted the administrative presumption found in 22 CFR 50.40 that a U.S. citizen/noncitizen national intends to retain U.S. nationality when he or she commits certain expatriating acts. That administrative presumption is in the process of being revised in 22 CFR Part 50, and includes when a U.S. citizen:
    (1) Is naturalized in a foreign state (INA 349(a)(1); or
    (2) Takes an oath of allegiance to a foreign state (INA 349(a)(2)); or
    (3) Serves in the armed services of a foreign state as a commissioned or noncommissioned officer of a foreign state, not engaged in hostilities against the United States (INA 349(a)(3)); or
    (4) Accepts nonpolicy-level employment with a foreign government and is either a dual national of the state of employment or has taken an oath or affirmation in connection with the position (INA 349(a)(4)).

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  6. When the forms ask for your last US address, I accidentally put down my mother’s current address instead my parents’ address 25 years ago. She’s been at her current address for almost twenty years anyway, plus years ago was only using my parents’ address as a base for official documents because was renting rooms in boarding houses so can’t even remember those. My last driving licence listed my mother’s current address too.

    Does anyone think this could pose a problem? Should I even mention this or just leave it as it is?

  7. I am so lucky to have an appt in just two days in Vancouver. That place is booked up forever. I have my CAD citizenship card, original statementof birth in USA, both USA and Canadian passports (the CAD passport is totally dogeared, the USA passport is never used but I have to bring it when I travel USA), plus forms DS 4079, 4080, 4081, 4082, 4083 filled out to the right amounts. I wish they could do a one pass renounce. I have an academic colleague at McGill University who is doing the same thing (in between first and second interviews). He, plus you Brockers, make me very firm about this.

  8. I’m afraid I’m going to be stuck as far as renouncing is concerned because I had no final official address when I spent my last six months in the states….may have to have an official former address search done, etc…. So may may have to put off my immediate plans to renounce since I have no documentation proving my last U.S. address; I suppose I could use my mother’s current address or my parent’s address at that time, especially as I have had official bank statements sent there; but would imagine they’ll do a background check of some sort before agreeing to issue a CLN. I can hopefully clarify this during my initial interview.

    I have a tepee interview.

    check and could realise that it doesn’t fully tally…How frustrating!!

  9. @monalisa1776, it seems to me you’re just looking for excuses not to go through with it. You haven’t lived in the US for decades, so what sort of check do you think the US embassy in London could usefully run here? And if they did, to what end? Your “real” last US address might by now be a Starbucks or a car park. My bet is that embassies collect this sort of pedantry from renunciants because the law says they have to collect it, nothing more.

  10. @ Monalisa1776

    You do not need an “official” former address. Just provide them with the most meaningful address that you can.

    I had several to choose from, choose my parents’ last address, had no problems with the process
    renounced 1 Mar 2012, received CLN in July and my name was in the Nov 2012 edition of the federal register.

    good luck with your interview

  11. Thanks, @Patricia. @Watcher, It’s true It’s emotionally tough but am determined all the same!! I just don’t know if they check the final address closely. It might be easier just to stick with using my mother’s current address since some of my bank statements and state ballots get sent there, plus It’s where I’m based when I do visit.

  12. @monalisa,

    I think you are blowing this out of proportion. The town and the state you last lived in should suffice. I spent countless time trying to find out my 1969 US address — to no avail (why would I ever need it?). DOS does not have the time or the resources for such.

  13. You are indeed correct, @Calgary!! They’ve just finished ringing me and it was surprisingly easy. They just did a quick rehash of the informal renunciation questionnaire and confirmed about my appointment next week. They even reassured me that using my most recent address of my mother would be fine, as it’s where I still receive mail.

    So it’s finally really going to happen, guys; you have all been such a wonderfu source of emotional and practical support. I strongly suspect that they already realise why there are so many leaving now…they didn’t even ask me for a reason.

    The guy sounded very polite and pleasant; not confrontational. At all. I am crying right now though: both huge tears of relief but also dismayed that they’re going to let me go so easily….part of me will always be heartbroken to give up my birthright and this part of me wants them to at least try to dissuade me from going (even though I’ve definitely made up my mind)…but why has it had to come to this, I’ll always keep asking. I will issue an anonymous report after everything has been completed, hopefully before the end of the summer.

  14. @monalisa

    Re:

    part of me will always be heartbroken to give up my birthright and this part of me wants them to at least try to dissuade me from going (even though I’ve definitely made up my mind)…but why has it had to come to this, I’ll always keep asking.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1875950/

    Battered wife USP syndrome is a symptom complex of physical and psychologic abuse of a woman USP by her husband former country. Although it may occur in up to 10% of Canadian women UPS’s, it largely goes unrecognized. Such women USP’s often present with vague somatic complaints, such as headache, insomnia and abdominal pain. Thus, the diagnosis can usually only be made by asking nonthreatening open-ended questions. Most women Some USPs remain with their husbands former country because they are afraid of them the former country, USA, and what it might do in retaliation. Hence, successful treatment usually depends on the USP’s leaving her husband former country and obtaining help in the development of a new self-concept.

    I am, though, delighted that you have tears of relief that this is going to be an easier process than you antipated — that you are “dismayed they are going to let you go so easily” — NO. I sincerely hope you can leave that behind and move on with pride that you have stood up for yourself from a very abusive former country.

  16. @ Mona Lisa,

    Great to hear of your phone interview!

    Re: “… part of me will always be heartbroken to give up my birthright …”

    The way I see it you are ending a legal contract, which you have determined is the best thing to do for your life in your present and future — but that doesn’t change your past, your heritage, or who you are. I know it’s a decision you never wanted to have to make and it was difficult, but I think that you will go forward in life with more and more peace of mind as you will have control of your life and be able to live like a normal person.

  17. @ Calgary,

    That’s an interesting and appropriate comparison. I think with USPs, it’s like the type of battered spouse situation where the other spouse was just fine at the beginning (not abusive then) but changed over time – sort of became not the same person you married.

    Your substituting USP in that quotation is downright eerie – it so describes what so many USPs are going through.

  18. Well said Pacifica and well done Monalisa
    I too felt a twinge and it was only my adopted country (of 35 years) and my children are still there.
    BUT you haven’t left its people behind, only it’s abusive government, and you are free to visit like any other ‘person of the ‘free’ world. Go well…

  19. MonaLisa, wonderful news for you! I use my mom’s address in the States all the time too. Good luck with the final steps.

  20. monalisa and others,

    Nostalgia and regrets about giving up one’s birthright brings to my mind the title of Thomas Wolfe’s novel “You Can’t Go Home Again.” See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Can%27t_Go_Home_Again

    Having lived about 60% of my life in Canada, I have observed for a long time on brief visits back to the US that it is no longer the country that I remember from growing up there in the 1940s through 1960s. In some ways — notably civil rights — it has gotten better, but in other ways it has gotten much worse. “Nice place to visit (Is it?), but I wouldn’t want to live there.”

  23. Thanks, Just Me.

    Here are mis-statements that jumped out at me:

    You will give up your rights to Social Security and Medicare benefits.

    You do not lose Social Security benefits when you renounce US citizenship (per treaties with many countries).

    Not That Prevalent
    Despite the media hype and initial appeal, very few actually give up their U.S. citizenship (only 932 people did so in 2012).

    and

    After running the numbers, most people will probably determine that renouncing U.S. citizenship doesn’t make sense. Still, if you have decided that this is the right course for you, be sure to enlist professional support.

  24. US citizens considering renouncing citizenship need help in determining first whether their total assets on tricky IRS 8854 push them into dreaded covered expatriate territory.

    Blog forums are nice, but if Isaac Brock is really serious it will advise (with disclaimers) readers with names of accountants/attorneys who have a good track record (e.g., worked in 10 of 10 clients) in successfully filling out 8854 and final tax forms for departing citizens–and charge not unreasonable fees.

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