FATCA Discussion Thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Please ask your questions here about FATCA.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See FATCA Discussion Thread (Ask your questions) for earlier discussion.
@MedeaF:
The HR dept at the company suggests that new employees go to area regional banks, rather than UBS and CS, due to high fees if account balances fall below about CHF 10’000. Apparently UBS and CS forced out smaller account holders in the late 1990s, although possibly that was more indirect than direct through increased fees. That’s the basis for my comment.
@Innocente, it’s more difficult because most of the cantonal banks have thrown their American clients out already and won’t take on any more. As far as I know only Zurich and Basel cantonal banks will still accept American clients, the rest say no thank you.
Well, I don’t call CHF7 a month for a personal account particularly high. PostFinance charge CHF5 a month, but have a lower balance limit of CHF7,500 before it’s free. We have a Pay & Save Basic Offering for Families and Couples UBS account and that would cost CHF30 a month, but we get CHF15 off because of having our mortgage with them too. That figure also includes a couple of credit cards as well. They are higher than Credit Suisse and PostFinance though so probably the cantonal banks are cheaper.
@Badger, MarkTwain
re: “US Citizens living abroad may also be deemed “US Persons” under certain rules.”
I don’t know, this seems a sort of “elastic phrasing” meaning that depending on the level of enforcement the bank may have some discretion concerning who they deem US person. There are a lot of duals and other categories whom the US considers US persons. Most of them probably have no idea of FATCA or filing requirements. Many may still be more or less “uncounted” having a non US birthplace and considering themselves as nativeborn Swedes, Danes, Norweigians etc with a vague US connection. The strictest enforcement of US person will create a lot of upheaval in many lives – mortgages, investments etc having to be cancelled, reassessed. I still believe that most of the general public in Europe is completely unaware of this. The fact that some still marry US persons/citizens without getting legal advice beforehand also indicates lack of knowledge.
“Elastic” phrasing, sounds Orwellian. I like it. Mind if I borrow it? Elasticity could be applied to a lot of things to make them broader and more encompassing.
@allou, yeah, you & I know that the game is to say something without fully saying something. If & when it becomes necessary for them to apply the policies, they can use it to say what they want.
@innocente
Thank you for assessing the quality of the Treasury Department’s latest conquests. You think China’s shaking in their boots knowing Bermuda’s joined FATCA?
@bubblebustin – feel free to use that phrase, it is actually my version/translation of a common phrase used to describe nonspecific wording in official documents in Scandinavia. As MarkT says “they can use it to say what they want” and it can be adapted to the situation on hand. I liked your choice of “the 1st of Never” !
@Allou
My father in law used to say “the paper never refuses ink”. To remind me to be careful what I read and hesr.
@bubblebustin:
Robert Stack joined Treasury on March 11, 2013, replacing Manal Corwin. It appears that Manal Corwin was successful in pulling in real countries while Robert Stack, with his UK-linked islands, appears to favor quantity over quality:
FATCA IGAs attributable to Manal Corwin (2012 through May 2013):
2012:
Denmark
Mexico
UK
2013:
Ireland (1/2013)
Switzerland (2/2013)
Norway (4/2013)
Spain (5/2013)
Germany (5/2013)
FATCA IGAs attributable to Robert Stack (June 2013 and beyond):
Japan
France
Netherlands
Costa Rica
Malta
Cayman Islands
Bermuda
Jersey
Guernsey
Isle of Man
Previously I was using 190 as the number of countries in the world. Since Robert Stack appears intent on including semi-sovereign territories in his count, I will now use 249 to ensure that Bermuda, Caymans, Guernsey, Jersey and the like are included as the goal. With 18 FATCA agreements signed, Robert Stack and his team are now at 7.2% of the countries and territories in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_area
More on Ambassador to China Max Baucus, as well as announcement of confirmation of new IRS Commissioner Koskinen:
Accounting Today: President Obama has nominated Senate Finance Committee chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont., as the next ambassador to China, potentially setting back efforts at comprehensive tax reform.
Accounting Today: The Senate has voted to confirm John Koskinen as the next Internal Revenue Service commissioner, succeeding acting commissioner Daniel Werfel, who was brought in to help reform the beleaguered tax agency.
Thanks badger and Duke,
This seems positive but I would like to have it confirmed from Canada’s Finance Minister. We also need Q121 and Q127 questions answered WHEN Canada’s government gets back down to the business of running this country.
Credit Union announcement does not refer to RDSPs being exempt likely because although they are *mostly* used for retirement purposes for disabled persons in later years, as Finance Minister Flaherty indicated to me, they can be used for other purposes like planning for housing alternatives for the disabled (and dismally including *anticipating earlier than retirement age for likely death*).
http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/disability/savings/rdsp.shtml
and from http://rdspresource.ca/index.php/where-to-open-an-rdsp/
How onerous the transfer from one financial institution to another is not clear, *but may be improving?*.
http://rdsp.com/2010/01/18/can-i-transfer-my-rdsp-from-one-bank-to-another/ (see Comments)
calgary 411 Transferring a RDSP is a straightforward procedure.
http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eforms/forms/hrsdc-emp5499(2011-09-002)e.pdf
As in the case of RRSPs, the bank losing the business may charge a fee for closing an account. For RRSPs, the bank gaining the business will pay this fee.
F.I.s don’t make any money on RESPs and RDSPs. The money they earn is less than the admin costs. They maintain them in the expectation of doing other more lucrative business with their clients.
http://communitarian.ru/publikacii/novyy_mirovoy_poryadok_finansy/fatca_o_chih_interesah_hlopochut_rossiyskie_vlasti_27122013/
Valentin Katasonov
FATCA: whose interests are fussing about the Russian authorities?
Abbreviation FATCA increasingly common in the Russian media. So short is called American law, the full name of which: Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act. In translation: “On the Foreign Account Tax Compliance.” FATCA directly affect the interests of Russia. As the Russian authorities react to this law?
VY Katasonov prof., Ph.D., chairman of the Russian Economic Society them. SF Sharapova.
FATCA as a tool for the construction of Pax Americana
The law was signed by U.S. President more March 18, 2010. Then began its gradual enactment. The next year, he should enter into force in its entirety. It belongs to a new generation of American laws, which can be called extraterritorial. These are the laws that apply to a number of other countries, and sometimes even the whole world. These are laws that help build Washington Pax Americana.
FATCA law was passed under the pretext that the U.S. Treasury regularly loses a large amount of taxes to withhold individuals and legal entities the U.S., bringing their income and assets outside of U.S. jurisdiction. The American tax system is set up so that individuals and legal entities must pay U.S. taxes regardless of where the income and asset allocation. Only on departure of U.S. citizens and companies in the offshore, according to some estimates, the U.S. federal budget annually loses about 100 billion dollars And how much he loses by U.S. citizens and companies in other jurisdictions, no one believed. For many years, even decades, Washington tried to fight tax deviators located outside the country, but the effect was short.
Act FATCA, according to its initiators, should put an end to such deviators once and for all. How? – Making the banks and some other financial institutions all over the world by the American Tax Service (IRS – Internal Revenue Service). Financial and banking organizations must transmit to IRS information about their customers with U.S. origin or having a business (commercial) due to natural and legal persons U.S.. In the list of customers, among others, and included persons who are holders of U.S. green card. If necessary, such agents should engage even the recovery of taxes from such customers in favor of the United States.
We are witnessing a unique alignment of the global system, “head” which is the U.S. agency, and all financial and banking organizations formally sovereign states coming under the administrative control of this department. Those who refuse to Uncle Sam’s invitation to become part of this system, are automatically “outcasts.” Against such financial and banking institutions, Washington will impose sanctions in the form of withholding 30% of the funds that such organizations will conduct through the U.S. banking system. And since the modern world financial and banking system is based on the dollar, it’s hard to imagine a bank that would not exercised dollar transaction. All such transactions pass through the correspondent accounts of non-US banks in U.S. banks. One gets the impression that the fight against tax deviators Washington – just an excuse to enactment. Home is not advertised purpose of FATCA – build a global financial system, the individual “cells” which is not only economically, but also administratively subordinated to official Washington and that the financial oligarchy, whose service is formal authority USA.
World reaction to the FATCA
So, in the next year, all non-US banks have to start practical work to assess and customers falling under the definition of “American taxpayers” and at the end of the year (according to other sources – in March 2015) to submit their first reports to the IRS. Accordingly Washington sanctions against non-US banks, evading honorable duty “U.S. tax agent” can be used to start a year and a bit.
It is not hard to imagine what the reaction around the world called the law. Foremost among U.S. citizens. Began renting U.S. passports, U.S. citizens do not want to be under the “hood» IRS. Several million Americans live permanently outside the United States, they will first give up U.S. citizenship.
It is not necessary to speak about the reaction of non-US banks and financial institutions. Statesmen and politicians in several countries grumbled, grumbled, calling the law a manifestation of the “American colonialism”, but were built by a team of Uncle Sam.
Especially because Washington has made some concessions. He invited other countries to a two-tier system: non-US banks provide information on U.S. taxpayers not directly the IRS, and their national tax authorities. And those, in turn, has sent her to Washington. To do this, Washington was asked to sign the relevant bilateral intergovernmental agreements between the United States and other countries on the implementation of FATCA. About 50 states have expressed willingness to sign such agreements. Hastened to conclude agreements, countries such as the UK, Denmark, Germany, Hungary, Ireland, Japan, Mexico, Norway, Spain, Switzerland. A few days ago the media reported that signed six agreements – with Malta, Bermuda and three dependent territories of the United Kingdom (Islands of Jersey, Guernsey, Maine). Thus, at the end of this year, the number of bilateral intergovernmental agreements on FATCA to 18. Banks of those countries that do not sign the intergovernmental agreement, must go into the “direct subordination” of American Tax Service.
Russia’s reaction to FATCA
And as Russia reacted to the law FATCA? Start (2-3 years ago), the reaction was sharply negative. In particular, the Russian Foreign Ministry described the law as an attempt by Washington to impose its diktat to other countries of the world. Then in 2012 came the band complete silence. Our government would not acknowledge the law FATCA, no measures were taken. Only occasionally by our officials made comments that if Russia started to fulfill the conditions FATCA, it would enter into conflict with the Russian legislation. In particular, FATCA provisions contradict the Russian banking secrecy and the Civil Code as regards contractual relations gap (if the Russian bank closes the account of American draft dodgers tax). Some Russian banks are nervous, knowing what position they would be if Russia does not sign a bilateral agreement with the United States. Then, without much from posting, departments “top” command was given to prepare their proposals for amendments to the Russian legislation to bring it into line with the new conditions generated by FATCA.
Only in 2013 occurred as a “perturbation”, which is periodically backed up by Finance Minister A. Siluanova that Russia is preparing a bilateral agreement on FATCA. About our angry statements two or three years ago, no one remembers.
Siluanov spring promised that, say, to the end, an agreement will be signed. Is the end of the year, it has not yet been signed. What do the banks? The new chairman of the Bank of Russia Nabiullina said recently that banks before 2016 will not be able to prepare for compliance with FATCA. But Washington is relentless, states that any delays is not going to give. Incidentally, it is not only the time but also money. Back in the 2012 Non-Profit Partnership “The National Payments Council” conducted a survey of 36 Russian commercial banks in order to find out how they are preparing for the implementation of FATCA and what are their capital and operating costs associated with implementation. Only the initial cost of buying the software, training, creation of methodical base must be at least $ 1 million per bank. Ie across our banking system is about $ 1 billion. This sensitive issue is bypassed. According to the “default” is the cost of Russian banks. And good it would have to be the cost of the one who all this “mess” brewed. Ie costs would have to be covered by the U.S. Internal Revenue Service. But, however, all this stuff on the background of the problems that may arise from Russian banks after that will come into full effect to the law IRS. After all, even a bilateral agreement with Washington is not a guarantee against possible sanctions. May become subject to sanctions and our state (if the IRS deems that the Tax Service is not enough zealously fulfill the requirements of the law and the agreement). Subject to sanctions can be taken separately and the Russian bank. Recall how in the middle of the last decade, Washington instructed to close many Russian banks correspondent accounts in U.S. banks only on “suspicion” of money laundering and terrorist financing. I do not exclude that if U.S. lawmakers had the idea to legalize the “Magnitsky list”, then eventually in America may appear as a “black list” of Russian banks that violate FATCA.
About Russia, FATCA and our “elite”
However, from any adversity there is an exit. A way out of the situation called «FATCA» was from the beginning and from Russia. I recall that Washington within the scheme of bilateral intergovernmental agreement offers two basic variants. Conventionally, they can be called “asymmetric” and “symmetric” version of the Agreement. The first assumes that the foreign country takes unilateral commitments to implement the conditions dictated by U.S. law FATCA. The second option assumes that the two contracting parties undertake to provide the necessary information to the other side of the tax that may apply to legal entities and individuals of its State. In the second embodiment, the foreign country and keeps his face and solve its fiscal problems by identifying their tax evaders in the United States.
Preparation of agreement with the U.S. Treasury to our over several months was conducted in complete secrecy. Unofficial sources claim that both options were discussed. Finally, in October, our media have reported that the Russian Ministry of Finance is preparing a very radical agreement, which even differs from the “symmetrical options offered by Washington. Document called an intergovernmental agreement on the exchange of information of a fiscal nature. It is not at all mention of American law FATCA, the agreement looks like a mutually beneficial agreement between two sovereign and equal states. This can be only be pleased.
But that’s about a month ago (28 November) at the Prime Minister DA Medvedev listened to the preparation of the agreement. Prime Minister instructed the Ministry of Finance and the Central Bank “accelerate” and prepare an agreement to January 20, 2014 It’s okay. Troubling more. Many media disseminated by the following information: “Medvedev is the first publicly supported the agreement and even mentioned FATCA, he instructed to prepare a draft agreement” to implement the provisions of U.S. law. ‘” Some commentators have not noticed anything. According to them, they say, is a game of words, the essence of the agreement does not change. I’m afraid that’s not true. It is because the “top” can not agree which option to choose (“symmetric” or “asymmetric”), so long in preparation of the agreement. Translated into plain language Medvedev’s words can be interpreted as follows: prepare an “asymmetric” option.
Who benefits from this, I think that’s obvious. America for many of our kleptomaniacs (oligarchs and officials) has been a long time, “promised land.” There hiding untold riches, the stolen over the years of so-called “reforms”. Naturally, they are not declared and never accounted for. However, some estimates are available. The most famous of them belongs to “friend” Russia Zbigniew Brzezinski. This is an American politician, communicating with our scientists on the issue of missile defense, said that “he did not see a single case in which Russia could resort to its nuclear capability while in U.S. banks is $ 500 billion, belonging to the Russian elite. – And then he added: you will still be examined, whose elite is – yours or ours already. This elite did not link their fate with that of Russia. They money is already there, kids are already there …. “.
D. Medvedev said before finalizing the agreement period remained about three weeks. So soon we will learn how Russia intends to build its relations with Uncle Sam under FATCA. This agreement will be very accurate indicator showing, whose same elite are senior officials of our government.
Scientists discover new #FATCA #FBAR tracking method for US persons! http://dailym.ai/Kalp6e
@Mark Twain…
Beats tattoos.. 🙂
Mideast banks face challenges as FATCA looms
http://www.zawya.com/story/Will_US_FATCA_hit_Arab_banks-ZAWYA20131229054640/
18 days left to provide tax reform ideas to Senate.
Easy ways to make a difference are to
—resend last years submissions
—refer to the ACA proposal
http://www.americansabroad.org/files/7913/7467/5734/July_2013_ACA_submission_to_taxreform_website_-_July_2013_copy.pdf
—refer to the Pinto proposal at the Ways and Means site
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/uploadedfiles/pinto_wg_submission.pdf
http://www.americansabroad.org/issues/taxation/your-suggestions-tax-reform/
ACT NOW: Senate Finance wants to hear your suggestions for tax reform.
The Senate Finance Committee has issued its proposal for International Business Tax Reform: http://www.finance.senate.gov
The Senate Finance proposal does not address international tax reform for individuals, however Senate Finance is considering options for individual reform, “The Chairman’s staff is considering reforms to simplify the rules in this area (international tax for individuals) while appropriately taxing such individuals.”
The Senate Finance Committee requests that comments and suggestions regarding the scope and mechanics for individual tax reform be submitted by January 17, 2014. Submissions should be made to: Tax_Reform@Finance.Senate.gov
ACA supports a move towards Residency-based Taxation
ACA encourages members and supporters to submit their comments. Let your voice be heard!
The RNC Resolution to Repeal FATCA will be voted out of its Resolutions Committee on Jan. 23 with a do pass recommendation to all 168 RNC members. It is unprecedented for all nine members of the committee to be co-sponsors of this resolution:
1) Carolyn McLarty, Chairman of the RNC Resolution Committee,
2) Linda Ackerman, National Committeewoman for California,
3) Debbie Joslin, National Committee…woman for Alaska,
4) Steve Scheffler, National Committeeman for Iowa,
5) Melody Potter, National Committeewoman for West Virginia
6) Paul Reynolds, National Committeeman for Alabama
7) Pat Longo, National Committeewoman for Connecticut
John Frey, National Committeeman for Connecticut
9) Tamara Scott, National Committeewoman for Iowa
The probability of the RNC passing this resolution next day is 99%. Now the resolution has also attracted a total of 25 co-sponsors.
https://www.facebook.com/republicansoverseas
Monday, 30 December 2013 16:49
New U.S. Tax Regime is “Devastating,” Experts Say
Read more here..
http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/congress/item/17273-new-u-s-tax-regime-is-devastating-experts-say
Thanks, Just Me.
That was an excellent read!! Glad Roger’s wisdom was included.
@Calgary411…
Remember the movie… Roger and me? We have both been talking with Alex the author, and Roger had lunch with him in Florida, so there you go! Little break throughs here and there, and all comes from emailing the author on previous stories. I got a response back from Alex which led to a productive exchange, and I encouraged Roger to contact him too. Roger has cred and a background that puts him in the expert category. I am just a complainer and “moaner” as one of my FATCA apologist twitter trolls calls me. LOL
You have little idea the good you do, Just Me. Your persistence and logic and telling it clearly ring true with many — so keep up what the trolls might call complaining and moaning! Thanks to both you and Roger and for Alex Newman, the author! Yes, I do remember “Roger and Me”. Many here likely do.
The fact that your words irritate a FATCA supporter is a very good sign of your effectiveness, Just Me!
http://www.currentconcerns.ch/index.php?id=2594
Current Concerns > 2013 > No 39, 27 December 2013 > FATCA: “The real victims will be national sovereignty and citizens’ and consumers’ rights”
FATCA: “The real victims will be national sovereignty and citizens’ and consumers’ rights”
Interview with James George Jatras*, J.D., Washington D.C.
Worth reading as a current review/refresher of important FATCA talking points – boiled down to essence. References specific to Canada (and to Switzerland). I’ve also placed elsewhere under FATCA and Canada link thread, and to the equivalent one for Switzerland.
Nothing really new or illuminating in this article, but the headline does highlight an issue that Treasury does NOT want to acknowledge and says is only ‘anecdotal’ and a ‘myth’.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/01/01/americans-are-unwanted-worldwide-at-least-by-banks/
1/01/2014
‘Americans Are Unwanted Worldwide (At Least By Banks)’ by Robert Wood, Forbes
….”As 2014 dawns, it’s a different world for Americans. Although America is still admired, for banks around the globe, Americans bring a new taint.”….
@Badger
the currents article is awesome. I have sent it to all the Cdn Political parties. I would just love it if someone could ask Obama what is FATCA. I never thought in my dying day that I would be grateful that a Republican , Rand Paul, would be trying to get FATCA