FATCA Discussion Thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Please ask your questions here about FATCA.
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@just me . A video with actors acting out you “You know your american” examples.
Maybe a traveling stage act presenting these scenarios. People like being entertained.
http://youtu.be/R0Q-K4P7jQo
Here NorthernStar, you need to get Rick Mercer to act out a bunch of them… 🙂
http://youtu.be/ConFWM-Pbfc
@JUST ME
I wish. He just got the order of Canada this week. He did do, a, great skit there.
Does this series of resignations at the IRS potentially affect FATCA and extraterritorial US tax initiatives?
http://www.taxanalysts.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-9LNGM7?OpenDocument
Interesting – thanks, badger. The last sentence of the article…
Boycott the FATCA!
Every Canadian can and should defend Canadian sovereignty and banking privacy by refusing to disclose personal details that determine whether or not the account-holder is a ‘US-connected’ person in the view of the USA.
Canadian banks will soon start requesting personal information from large account-holders, under the terms of legislation that the USA recently forced the Canadian government to implement. It would be a bad mistake for any Canadian account-holder to disclose this information, as such disclosures will weaken the Canadian banking sector, dilute Canadian privacy laws, and transfer yet more Canadian sovereignty to US state powers.
EVERY Canadian should take this free opportunity to poke a stick in the eye of Uncle Sam.
This is a free opportunity, because there can be no consequences stemming from the refusal to disclose information on the part of a Canadian account holder who is not ‘US-connected’ as defined by the USA. The IRS assumes that those who refuse to disclose are US taxpayers wishing to avoid paying legitimate taxes; and they plan to follow up by making their own inquiries, as they are systematically forbidden from using Canadian institutions to collect US taxes. But if the IRS receives a massive number of refusals to disclose, and most of these were from persons who absolutely could not be taxed, then they will have received no advantage from this disclosure requirement, and their costs of tax collection will be excessively high.
This is what I propose to reply to my bank when it makes this inquiry, and I suggest that others do the same. Perhaps there can be an agreed-upon common response, either this one or a better one.
“I am not a US taxpayer. I forbid you to disclose any of my personal information to any US government agency. Under the fundamental law of Canada, I am not required to disclose to you or any other party my national origin, my ethnic or religious identity, or my personal or political commitments, and you are not permitted to discriminate against me for this. I do not accept the weakening of Canadian sovereignty that the US government has recently forced upon the government of Canada.”
This formula of non-response can also be used by Canadian residents who used to be US taxpayers but have stopped being US taxpayers (in their view) in virtue of their permanent settlement in Canada. These fellow Canadians are very vulnerable to retaliation and intimidation by the US government, but they will be safe from it as long as they shelter within the borders of Canada.
Any suggestions for improvement in the wording?
Is there anybody who wishes to propagate and publicize this initiative more generally?
D. S. Hutchinson
Professor of Philosophy,
University of Toronto
Fellow of Trinity College,
6 Hoskin Avenue,
Toronto, ON, M5S 1H8, Canada
416-978-8259
fax: 978-2797
@Doug…
In Canada, it sounds like a good idea. Not sure it would be applicable in other countries, but why not?!
Thanks for your comment on what should be the response of Canadians who care about their country to the banks that ask them whether they would be viewed as, by the USA, a *US Person*. Canadians need to see and think about and determine if they agree on how they are affected by FATCA, a sell-out of their Canada to the US.
With your permission, your words will be added to whatever I next discuss with any banker, MP or journalist.
@Doug
Thank you, a fabulous idea. I will pass this along to all of my non-branded friends.
Calgary411 and others: please feel free to use these words and ideas of mine, with or without attribution. – DSH
Thanks, Doug Hutchinson!!!
@Doug Hutchinson
Fantastic idea. Tweeting it now. We can try to engage sympathetic groups to promote the idea. Some may lack your courage/be afraid of getting entangled with the IRS but hopefully some would not.
One suggestion with regard to this section of the statement: ““I am not a US taxpayer. I forbid you to disclose any of my personal information to any US government agency.” The banks will disclose to the CRA so would need re-wording, something like “I forbid you to disclose any of my personal information to the CRA with the knowledge that they will then pass it on to the IRS.”
Prof Cockfield, in his testimony to FINA on May 13, mentioned that (at least previously), banks were not allowed to report to CRA, the type of information the Americans were requesting (balances, deposits, withdrawals). I am not clear if C-31 allows this now to be done for all Canadians, or only those with “US Personhood.”
Generally, US “Persons” still seem unaware of this what to say of those not affected. Mass civil disobedience in Canada…now that would gather some attention, eh?
@Doug, if you want to risk having your Canadian accounts partially or fully frozen, go ahead. It’s happened here in Switzerland over a request for FBAR copies from someone who isn’t being “wilfull”. Do you think it won’t in Canada when you are?
Medea Fleecestealer, thanks for alerting me to this danger: “@Doug, if you want to risk having your Canadian accounts partially or fully frozen, go ahead. It’s happened here in Switzerland over a request for FBAR copies from someone who isn’t being “wilfull”. Do you think it won’t in Canada when you are?”
Could you please inform me and others here in Canada more fully about how this awful scenario might play out? Correct me if my understanding is wrong, but this is how I imagine this playing out for me: I would receive a request to disclose my finances under FBAR, or my bank would receive this request and pass it on to me; and then in response I would make a true and complete disclosure that all my assets are and have always been Canadian and that I am not a US-connected person, not in any sense at all. This would be annoying to me, but I am willing to put up with it. I don’t see what basis there could be for further financial action against a non-US person; but this is perhaps where your experience and your imagination could be useful to us all.
Am I really at risk? I was born in Canada of two Canadian parents, went to school in Montréal, went to college in Kingston, went to graduate school in Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar (BC and Balliol 1976), and returned to Toronto as a professor of philosophy in 1983, where I have continuously resided. Until I was 50 years old I had not spent more than 10 days total in the USA, each time on short visits. I do not have and have never had a US TIN. I have never had US bank account. There are no financial or biographical records in existence that connect me to the USA. This is what makes me the proper sort of spearhead of this action, I think, as my personal interests are not in any way involved.
Of course it would be ruinously dangerous for any Canadian who does have US connections to lead this charge of civil obedience (to our Charter). It is those Canadians who agree to disclose information for the benefit of a foreign power who should be regarded as engaging in civil disobedience (this is in response to a previous comment). But I have no US connections, truly I don’t.
To commit this act of civil obedience, all it would take is 13 words written to your banker, with one deft use of a semi-colon: “I am not a US taxpayer; this all you need to know.” This is the short executive version of the longer statement I offered earlier.
But first let’s hear from Medea Fleecestealer, that barbarian princess of Colchis, to tell us what wicked schemes are swirling in those twisted IRS minds. – Doug H
@Doug Hutchinson – you are correct that as a non US person you would have ‘less’ to fear and could possibly sue a bank for freezing or shutting your bank account for refusing to respond. Obviously, actual connected US persons who are ‘legally’ being discriminated against would have more to fear. I would hope that ALL Canadians, both tainted and untainted would refuse to answer, in solidarity, but the problem is that most folks don’t even know they should not answer the question, as they have not even heard of their ‘second class citizenshiphood’ foisted upon them by their own Canadian government. Most people will answer the question and walk into the trap (or not if they are Canadian or other country besides the US born). Our problem is the fact that this has been hidden from 90% of all people not just the ones affected. This is why our message has to keep being disseminated by EVERYONE before too much harm has been done!!
@Doug-The problem with resisting the banks attempts to determine if you are a U.S. person is that they will just assume you are a U.S. person and then send your account information to the CRA who will then forward it to the IRS. Nobody is going to inform you that this has taken place. They will do it behind your back. It is a big risk for a non U.S. tainted person to undertake.
Rob et al. We are getting ahead of ourselves. If the bank has no so called indicia on file, there is no reason for them to contact you. If your account is “high value” (> 1 million) and the account mgr. has no reason to believe you are a ‘US Person” there is no reason to contact you. The issue is with new accounts where some F.I.s (TD for example) are apparently asking place of birth. They are not obliged to under the terms of the IGA. Whether or not they are allowed to do so has not yet been determined.
According to the IGA, there are only minimums on what they need to search for. There is no limit upon what they CAN ask for, according to US demands.
In most countries, they can ask you anything, it is just a limit upon what one might be required to answer.
@Doug, of course if you’re absolutely nothing but Canadian you have nothing to fear because the banks won’t be contacting you in the first place. Only those with a definite or suspected US connection will be tracked down.
As rob says the banks will just assume you’re a US person and pass your info on, probably with some sort of marker to identify that you didn’t co-operate. Which is exactly what the IRS will be looking for.
As for the freezing of accounts, read here:
http://www.englishforum.ch/finance-banking-taxation/200706-postfinace-demands-past-fbars.html
http://www.englishforum.ch/finance-banking-taxation/203243-my-kantonal-bank-asking-me-do-ovdp.html
http://www.englishforum.ch/finance-banking-taxation/189183-credit-suisse-postfinance-w9-form-waiver-forms.html
Okay, the Swiss banks are running scared due to the various fines they’re incurred via the US justice system, but that doesn’t mean that once the ball gets rolling that Canadian banks won’t follow suit and ask for FBAR’s and recent US tax filings to prove your compliancy.
It would be ultimate to just state that you are in Canada and meeting the obligations of a Canadian. Any discussion of any other country or country’s laws ought not be necessary.
Why wouldn’t any *real* and *only-Canadian* Canadian with the capacity of critical thinking, as well as Canadians with a national origin of anything other than the US, be appalled at the audacity of their Canadian banks or credit unions or insurance companies asking them any form of the question: “What is your national origin?”?
Just why are or should these “pure” Canadian citizens and residents be affected by the Haper government allowing foreign law to come into a formerly sovereign Canada? Why could they not sue their financial institution for that question? Oh, sure — if you have nothing to hide, why does it matter that they ask you? Really?
@Doug
If I remember correctly, the Canada IGA (actually all IGAs) removes the threat of account closures. But, they are still supposed to notify the IRS about the the recalcitrant account holder.
You should probably have a close reading of it again…
The bill to make FATCA law in France just got introduced in parliament:
En Francais dans le texte:
Dépôt à l’Assemblée nationale d’un projet de loi autorisant l’approbation de l’accord entre la France et les Etats-Unis d’Amérique pour la mise en œuvre de la loi relative au respect des obligations fiscales concernant les comptes étrangers (dite “loi FATCA”).
http://lemondedudroit.fr/affaires-internationales-international/192623-accord-france-usa-pour-le-respect-des-obligations-fiscales-concernant-les-comptes-etrangers-loi-fatca-projet-de-loi.html
Here comes the DC conventional wisdom propaganda.
IT had the backing of President Barack Obama, who proposed similar changes in his budget that year and had, as a senator, co-sponsored an anti-tax cheat bill with Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.). Last week, Levin, a major proponent of hardball tactics combating tax dodging, called FATCA’s start “a big win for hardworking, honest Americans who are sick and tired of picking up the tab for tax dodgers hiding money offshore.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/07/tax-evasion-foreign-account-tax-compliance-act-108740.html#ixzz377vBXg8X