Many offshore experts and tax advisers nowadays advise foreigners to invest in USA based banks and companies as they don’t pay a dime to US taxes and get better exposure and virtually tax free in USA with no reporting whatsoever to their respective govts. There are no exchanges of treaties that Obama signed? Why? Think why. Everyone in the world is laughing at double standards by US govt yet our government does not blink twice at this but making the lives of US citizens impossible overseas. Still pursuing US citizens who are dual nationals in Canada or anywhere in the world while not taxing or reporting anyone investing there.
Many offshore experts and tax advisers nowadays advise foreigners to invest in USA based banks and companies as they don’t pay a dime to US taxes and get better exposure and virtually tax free in USA with no reporting whatsoever to their respective govts. There are no exchanges of treaties that Obama signed? Why? Think why. Everyone in the world is laughing at double standards by US govt yet our government does not blink twice at this but making the lives of US citizens impossible overseas. Still pursuing US citizens who are dual nationals in Canada or anywhere in the world while not taxing or reporting anyone investing there.
@Tom
What exactly are you on about? There is no pursuit of dual nationals in Canada. A dual citizen opening a bank account in Canada would be invited to voluntarily disclose their US citizenship. Presuming they know enough to answer “no”, they will not be subject to FATCA reporting. Furthermore, there is no active pursuit of dual citizens failing to file US tax returns. It actually takes a bit of effort to get in trouble with the IRS.
“It actually takes a bit of effort to get in trouble with the IRS.”
Ironically, the filing of US tax returns is the most likely way for people to get in trouble with the IRS. Those who attempt to comply are the ones with the problems. Those who don’t file don’t have IRS problems.
Heck, even if you are dumb enough to admit to your bank that you are a US person and the CRA sends your data to the IRS, nothing bad happens. You really do have to try pretty hard to wind up with IRS problems.
@Ron Henderson
Correct. US citizenship-based taxation and FATCA apply only to people in Canada and therefore the only issue is what is happening in Canada – right?
Since Tom is clearly not in Canada and these issues apply only in Canada then there is no reason for him to be concerned.
Everyone, that is my point exactly. Problem is in filing. Non filers are doing okay. The best thing for a dual national is to not to tell the bank or brokerages as their reps even tell you not to check off that US citizen box or their compliance dept will flag it or deny you. Stay off the radar. Best piece of advice. Don’t listen to those compliancy vultures.
@USCA
Tom sayeth: “Still pursuing US citizens who are dual nationals in Canada or anywhere in the world while not taxing or reporting anyone investing there.”
I respondeth: Not really true for Canada.
(On the tax front there’s no pursuit anywhere in the world, as far as I can tell, but we all know that FATCA is a problem in some countries.)
Americans abroad have no guts to fight. Americans make great slaves.
@Randy
How would you describe the 90+ percent of Americans abroad who file nothing with the IRS and have no problems with the US government?
Question: How would you describe the 90+ percent of Americans abroad who file nothing with the IRS and have no problems with the US government?
Answer: People who are disengaged and not fighting.
Ron, I think it’s pretty clear that Suzanne’s original comment (and this post) was based on an acknowledgement that Laura is acknowledging that she is a US citizen, presumable files US taxes and is publicly advocating for change. It’s also pretty clear that Laura is one of a small number of people who are actively fighting for change. Even the noncompliant will/would benefit from Laura’s advocacy.
Obviously people who have not been in compliance will not come into compliance. But, it would be a mistake to pass this off as being clever. In most cases it’s the result of never having known about US tax laws and learning about them at a time when sufficient online resources existed to educate people before coming into compliance. Many of the noncompliant are simply lucky and they realize it. On the other hand, there are a few who were (to use an analogy):
“Born in third base and believe they hit a triple.”
The constant preaching of noncompliance may be a personal solution but but is not a contribution to working toward the change that is necessary.
@Randy
Only Americans abroad who volunteer to comply with the dimwitted rules (or are sucked in by the compliance industry) are slaves. As R.H. says, more than 90 percent of them totally ignore those rules with no problems.
As for not having the guts to fight this injustice, why bother? Most just want to live their lives free of interference, not make it their life’s mission to fight the US government. The US system is unenforceable and will crumble by itself anyway, a process that is well underway.
” As for not having the guts to fight this injustice, why bother?”
Win,loss,or draw, the point is that if you are not fighting this case,this current or some future government will assume that you are dead and toss your carcass under the bus in due course.
What you are saying is true and only for now. Bear that in mind please.
” Safety and comfort come with complacency. This is not a good position to work from “
“Win,loss,or draw, the point is that if you are not fighting this case,this current or some future government will assume that you are dead and toss your carcass under the bus in due course.”
There’s no point worrying about that because its already happened. We were tossed under the bus the moment the IGA was signed. And after two adverse court rulings, the government, via its judges, has made it abundantly clear they are quite willing to use all available government resources to make sure we stay under the bus. They have the power to fight us in court forever, so there’s no winning the battle by that means. So we are left to fend for ourselves with guerilla tactics.
The only fight I have left in me is to flatly refuse to comply, refuse to let a bank collect information they will use to FATCA me, and continue to tell anyone who will listen how they can be a refusnik too.
I’m just a guy who wants to be like other Canadians who spend a couple of hours a year figuring out their taxes, pay what I owe, and resume my regularly scheduled life. I left the US decades ago because I wanted them out of my life; I want to keep it that way.
Agree with your approach wholeheartedly but just not that one should toss in the towel regarding the ongoing lawsuit ,a just cause.
One way to accelerate economic balance in the world today is Trump. He is the silver bullet . He has helped create unlikely alliances, eg, Russia-Iran and helped turn a meek giant into raging bull callled China. He may even wake up Europe,if only given more time. Yes, we need another four years though eight years woud be infinitely better( unfortunately not doable) of Trumpism. He may even solve the cbt,fatca problem. Hail Caesar,,hail Trump.
A senior in Canada that I know got US$1200 from the IRS. He wanted to donate it but I told him to think of it as partial recompense for the iniquitous US$2450 fee he has to pay to the State Department for renunciation of his US citizenship
There should be another cheque if and when they settle on the stimulus bill, which will then cover the full cost of renunciation, should this person choose to renounce.
@N Bladon
Which lawsuit did you discourage the “senior in Canada” from contributing to? The Canadian one? The UK one? Any opposition?
@Ron Henderson
As an alternative to contributing to organizations attempting to oppose FATCA and CBT, would you support contributing the stimulus checks to a “Renunciation Fund” – which would provide “Renunciation Assistance” to those in need? Surely you don’t feel personally entitled to the stimulus checks …
Provided there’s a second cheque of course, a renunciation fund for the needy isn’t really required this year because anyone who wants to renounce but can’t afford to can cover the full cost with stimulus benefits. All they need to obtain the money is a Social Security Number.
I’ve only once or maybe twice seen someone raising money online to renounce US citizenship. Generally young, and in the case I remember clearly it wasn’t particularly necessary, as they were born outside the US.
“ it wasn’t particularly necessary, as they were born outside the US.”
Incorrect. My banks in Japan disagree. Depends where born and/or where they reside. Where you are born, if you are a US person living in Japan, including Japanese citizens, your FI send all its info on you to the IRS regardless of the balance. The possible exception being if you happen to some how have an account you opened years ago with out them copying your passport information.
In this particular case it was unnecessary. He was Dutch, born and raised, but with one American parent. FATCA-free banking would not be difficult for him.
I did contact him privately to explain how the obligations of US citizenship could easily be ignored. Probably a good thing because it didn’t look like he was raising much money.
@ JapanT,
Agree. It depends on where you live. So, those of us in countries where ignoring FATCA is viable should bear that in mind when commenting.
Also, even if one lives in a country where FATCA is not such a big problem, depending on a person’s individual fact set, it could be very necessary to renounce. And when a person seeks advice on-line — and especially if a lurker is only reading a comment — we generally do not know a person’s enitre fact set.
I’d say that FATCA is not a problem for some people in at least one country, but it remains a big problem — everywhere.
I never made a general claim, I said that in this particular case it wasn’t necessary.
He was a young man born in the Netherlands with one US parent who thought that he needed to renounce to avoid a lifetime of US tax filings, which is not the case. That said, it’s an understandable first reaction when one answers the FATCA question truthfully and is told to get an SSN. After I set the record straight, he replied with “I wish I had gotten this advice a bit sooner.”
@Ron,
Yes, you did say “in this particular case.” Sorry if I came across as dumping on you. I meant it as we all should be careful to remember not to generalise.
I think it’s great that you took the time to get in touch with that guy privately — and I think I recall some others, too — so you could discuss and inform them about FATCA/renunciation in relation to their personal fact sets, it not always being practical or wise in a public setting.
I thought it would be rather awkward to say “you really don’t need to do this” in the public comments after a few hundred euro had already been pledged, hence the private message. No idea what ultimately happened there, but he did reply and promised to dig a bit deeper.
“In this particular case it was unnecessary. He was Dutch, born and raised, but with one American parent. FATCA-free banking would not be difficult for him.”. If he moved to Japan it could be a problem. If status as a USC was known, his FIs in Japan would report his accounts to the US. So, as long as he limits his wonderings to his homeland and those countries that will not report him and he is happy with those restrictions or the consequences of being employed in Japan and others, no problem.
Seems to me like arguing to a person of color in the US. during the 50’s that all they need to do to avoid trouble is to restrict themselves to institutions that serve “Black Only” and be happy about it.
Many offshore experts and tax advisers nowadays advise foreigners to invest in USA based banks and companies as they don’t pay a dime to US taxes and get better exposure and virtually tax free in USA with no reporting whatsoever to their respective govts. There are no exchanges of treaties that Obama signed? Why? Think why. Everyone in the world is laughing at double standards by US govt yet our government does not blink twice at this but making the lives of US citizens impossible overseas. Still pursuing US citizens who are dual nationals in Canada or anywhere in the world while not taxing or reporting anyone investing there.
Many offshore experts and tax advisers nowadays advise foreigners to invest in USA based banks and companies as they don’t pay a dime to US taxes and get better exposure and virtually tax free in USA with no reporting whatsoever to their respective govts. There are no exchanges of treaties that Obama signed? Why? Think why. Everyone in the world is laughing at double standards by US govt yet our government does not blink twice at this but making the lives of US citizens impossible overseas. Still pursuing US citizens who are dual nationals in Canada or anywhere in the world while not taxing or reporting anyone investing there.
@Tom
What exactly are you on about? There is no pursuit of dual nationals in Canada. A dual citizen opening a bank account in Canada would be invited to voluntarily disclose their US citizenship. Presuming they know enough to answer “no”, they will not be subject to FATCA reporting. Furthermore, there is no active pursuit of dual citizens failing to file US tax returns. It actually takes a bit of effort to get in trouble with the IRS.
“It actually takes a bit of effort to get in trouble with the IRS.”
Ironically, the filing of US tax returns is the most likely way for people to get in trouble with the IRS. Those who attempt to comply are the ones with the problems. Those who don’t file don’t have IRS problems.
Heck, even if you are dumb enough to admit to your bank that you are a US person and the CRA sends your data to the IRS, nothing bad happens. You really do have to try pretty hard to wind up with IRS problems.
@Ron Henderson
Correct. US citizenship-based taxation and FATCA apply only to people in Canada and therefore the only issue is what is happening in Canada – right?
Since Tom is clearly not in Canada and these issues apply only in Canada then there is no reason for him to be concerned.
Everyone, that is my point exactly. Problem is in filing. Non filers are doing okay. The best thing for a dual national is to not to tell the bank or brokerages as their reps even tell you not to check off that US citizen box or their compliance dept will flag it or deny you. Stay off the radar. Best piece of advice. Don’t listen to those compliancy vultures.
@USCA
Tom sayeth: “Still pursuing US citizens who are dual nationals in Canada or anywhere in the world while not taxing or reporting anyone investing there.”
I respondeth: Not really true for Canada.
(On the tax front there’s no pursuit anywhere in the world, as far as I can tell, but we all know that FATCA is a problem in some countries.)
Americans abroad have no guts to fight. Americans make great slaves.
@Randy
How would you describe the 90+ percent of Americans abroad who file nothing with the IRS and have no problems with the US government?
Answer: People who are disengaged and not fighting.
________________________________________________________________________
Ron, I think it’s pretty clear that Suzanne’s original comment (and this post) was based on an acknowledgement that Laura is acknowledging that she is a US citizen, presumable files US taxes and is publicly advocating for change. It’s also pretty clear that Laura is one of a small number of people who are actively fighting for change. Even the noncompliant will/would benefit from Laura’s advocacy.
Obviously people who have not been in compliance will not come into compliance. But, it would be a mistake to pass this off as being clever. In most cases it’s the result of never having known about US tax laws and learning about them at a time when sufficient online resources existed to educate people before coming into compliance. Many of the noncompliant are simply lucky and they realize it. On the other hand, there are a few who were (to use an analogy):
The constant preaching of noncompliance may be a personal solution but but is not a contribution to working toward the change that is necessary.
@Randy
Only Americans abroad who volunteer to comply with the dimwitted rules (or are sucked in by the compliance industry) are slaves. As R.H. says, more than 90 percent of them totally ignore those rules with no problems.
As for not having the guts to fight this injustice, why bother? Most just want to live their lives free of interference, not make it their life’s mission to fight the US government. The US system is unenforceable and will crumble by itself anyway, a process that is well underway.
” As for not having the guts to fight this injustice, why bother?”
Win,loss,or draw, the point is that if you are not fighting this case,this current or some future government will assume that you are dead and toss your carcass under the bus in due course.
What you are saying is true and only for now. Bear that in mind please.
” Safety and comfort come with complacency. This is not a good position to work from “
“Win,loss,or draw, the point is that if you are not fighting this case,this current or some future government will assume that you are dead and toss your carcass under the bus in due course.”
There’s no point worrying about that because its already happened. We were tossed under the bus the moment the IGA was signed. And after two adverse court rulings, the government, via its judges, has made it abundantly clear they are quite willing to use all available government resources to make sure we stay under the bus. They have the power to fight us in court forever, so there’s no winning the battle by that means. So we are left to fend for ourselves with guerilla tactics.
The only fight I have left in me is to flatly refuse to comply, refuse to let a bank collect information they will use to FATCA me, and continue to tell anyone who will listen how they can be a refusnik too.
I’m just a guy who wants to be like other Canadians who spend a couple of hours a year figuring out their taxes, pay what I owe, and resume my regularly scheduled life. I left the US decades ago because I wanted them out of my life; I want to keep it that way.
Agree with your approach wholeheartedly but just not that one should toss in the towel regarding the ongoing lawsuit ,a just cause.
One way to accelerate economic balance in the world today is Trump. He is the silver bullet . He has helped create unlikely alliances, eg, Russia-Iran and helped turn a meek giant into raging bull callled China. He may even wake up Europe,if only given more time. Yes, we need another four years though eight years woud be infinitely better( unfortunately not doable) of Trumpism. He may even solve the cbt,fatca problem. Hail Caesar,,hail Trump.
A senior in Canada that I know got US$1200 from the IRS. He wanted to donate it but I told him to think of it as partial recompense for the iniquitous US$2450 fee he has to pay to the State Department for renunciation of his US citizenship
There should be another cheque if and when they settle on the stimulus bill, which will then cover the full cost of renunciation, should this person choose to renounce.
@N Bladon
Which lawsuit did you discourage the “senior in Canada” from contributing to? The Canadian one? The UK one? Any opposition?
@Ron Henderson
As an alternative to contributing to organizations attempting to oppose FATCA and CBT, would you support contributing the stimulus checks to a “Renunciation Fund” – which would provide “Renunciation Assistance” to those in need? Surely you don’t feel personally entitled to the stimulus checks …
Provided there’s a second cheque of course, a renunciation fund for the needy isn’t really required this year because anyone who wants to renounce but can’t afford to can cover the full cost with stimulus benefits. All they need to obtain the money is a Social Security Number.
I’ve only once or maybe twice seen someone raising money online to renounce US citizenship. Generally young, and in the case I remember clearly it wasn’t particularly necessary, as they were born outside the US.
“ it wasn’t particularly necessary, as they were born outside the US.”
Incorrect. My banks in Japan disagree. Depends where born and/or where they reside. Where you are born, if you are a US person living in Japan, including Japanese citizens, your FI send all its info on you to the IRS regardless of the balance. The possible exception being if you happen to some how have an account you opened years ago with out them copying your passport information.
In this particular case it was unnecessary. He was Dutch, born and raised, but with one American parent. FATCA-free banking would not be difficult for him.
I did contact him privately to explain how the obligations of US citizenship could easily be ignored. Probably a good thing because it didn’t look like he was raising much money.
@ JapanT,
Agree. It depends on where you live. So, those of us in countries where ignoring FATCA is viable should bear that in mind when commenting.
Also, even if one lives in a country where FATCA is not such a big problem, depending on a person’s individual fact set, it could be very necessary to renounce. And when a person seeks advice on-line — and especially if a lurker is only reading a comment — we generally do not know a person’s enitre fact set.
I’d say that FATCA is not a problem for some people in at least one country, but it remains a big problem — everywhere.
I never made a general claim, I said that in this particular case it wasn’t necessary.
He was a young man born in the Netherlands with one US parent who thought that he needed to renounce to avoid a lifetime of US tax filings, which is not the case. That said, it’s an understandable first reaction when one answers the FATCA question truthfully and is told to get an SSN. After I set the record straight, he replied with “I wish I had gotten this advice a bit sooner.”
@Ron,
Yes, you did say “in this particular case.” Sorry if I came across as dumping on you. I meant it as we all should be careful to remember not to generalise.
I think it’s great that you took the time to get in touch with that guy privately — and I think I recall some others, too — so you could discuss and inform them about FATCA/renunciation in relation to their personal fact sets, it not always being practical or wise in a public setting.
I thought it would be rather awkward to say “you really don’t need to do this” in the public comments after a few hundred euro had already been pledged, hence the private message. No idea what ultimately happened there, but he did reply and promised to dig a bit deeper.
“In this particular case it was unnecessary. He was Dutch, born and raised, but with one American parent. FATCA-free banking would not be difficult for him.”. If he moved to Japan it could be a problem. If status as a USC was known, his FIs in Japan would report his accounts to the US. So, as long as he limits his wonderings to his homeland and those countries that will not report him and he is happy with those restrictions or the consequences of being employed in Japan and others, no problem.
Seems to me like arguing to a person of color in the US. during the 50’s that all they need to do to avoid trouble is to restrict themselves to institutions that serve “Black Only” and be happy about it.
Ignoring this is not the solution.