US expat tax and FBAR: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became to large for our software to handle well. See US expat tax and FBAR: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One.
@bubblebustin, yes, I was interested that for our purposes, nothing about being born and living abroad, or not knowing you were a citizen, etc. was on the list. Although some of the other circumstances might assist people (ex. health concerns, death of loved one, depression, job loss, etc.). Would have been good if the article provide more details as to how to effectively make those arguments or document them, but perhaps there is something useful there as a lead.
@Chris…
I just got around to reading Phil’s latest blog of “shameless pimping”: he would say, and I make that comment affectionately…
http://hodgen.com/webinar-for-nonfiler-americans-abroad/
It is worth noting, that this has a lot of good advice in it, and even I learned something I did not know… Like this…
If you are one of many lost still and wondering or worrying about what to do, this is worth a read…even if you don’t sign up for his seminars. Hey, a guy has to make a buck to pay the light bills.
Not be able to go to USA is no penalty for me. I just want to know about 2016 & 2017 FACTA penalty talked about in there website.
For anyone interested, the Ways and Means Committee published a list of letters it received on recommendations for tax reform. It’s nice to see so many references to ACA’s proposal for RBT.
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/taxreform/workinggroups.htm
http://www.thelocal.ch/20130708/shakiras-ex-pal-fails-to-gain-her-swiss-cash
I wonder if she’s included it on her FBAR’s. Assuming she lives in the States now of course, given that the ex has filed a lawsuit in the courts.
@money,
I can’t find the web page that you referred to (some FATCA penalty in 2016 & 2017)?
Question re Canadian mutual funds: how is it that NAFTA does not prevent Canadian mutual funds from being designated as PFICs? Shouldn’t NAFTA require that Canadian mutual funds have to be afforded the same treatment by the US as US mutual funds? Or is there some sort of exemption for financial instruments? Or does the IRS just not give a flying fig about NAFTA?
@tdott, the latter of course. They don’t give a flying fig for anyone or anything else. You should know that by now. The IRS makes up its own rules as it goes along.
This list of links might be useful
http://taxtopics.net/foreign.htm
Goldstein on Gelt: Why US Tax Laws Are Unfair to Expats
Interview with James Jatras:
http://www.jewishpress.com/blogs/goldstein-on-gelt/why-us-tax-laws-are-unfair-to-expats/2013/08/05/
The IRS want me to supply them with a TIN this one is a first letter and it just for the withholding certificate. for that damm Florida survivor rights condo. The unit had a negative capital gain but they did the 10% withholding. I had a green card threw it out 30 years ago ( I did not cross border between 1988 and 2008)and when I went over the border in 2008. I received an I-407. I have misplaced it
Because I had to signed a notarized copy of my sale document the closing company has my address and driver license. I also stupidly enough deposited my money to my major bank. The closing company used my name for taxpayer ID. They never indicated I had to fill out a W-7. They made me sign a notarized letter with the various civil and criminal warning. What a dummy I was I just wanted to stop paying condo fees on a place iwas not going to use.
First the old social security card was for a L-1 visa. I was back in Canada when the Green card sent to old address. Is that social security number still up. If I apply for a temporary TIN will it get rejected because there is the old social security number that will match name, birth date, place of birth?
If apply to get a copy of social security number which is a pain and send that in as my tax payer ID will that cause more problem?
I dealt with lawyers and all the want to do is cover their asses. Even though I do not have a great deal of income I will be destroyed because of large amount of unrealized capital gains.
I will send in freedom of infrmation about my immigration status will that cause me problems?
Do they have I-407 info. I never filled for 6 year.
I am Canadian born citizen.
Is there anyway the bank could try and freeze my money I only have a small US checking account which I will shortly close out. No real USA investments.
Anybody can recommend a lawyer in Alberta?
I do not want to use moody as they are Americans.
I am willing to give all the money I received from condo sale and not be permitted in USA if they drop things on condo sale.
Money DONT DO ANYTHING. You don’t have to. You are perfectly safe. Believe me.
My Canadian taxes are extra clean, I have been a substantial amount of $ into my CRA intallment account. I may even buy Canadian saving bond which pay nothing but the American can not touch.I consider that is money the USA can never touch will pays bills for a couple of years.
I just wish I can stop bringing up worse scenario. I do own a bunch of provincial bond through brokerage accounts. I would imagine that there would be a massive lawsuit if they tried to freeze that. The rest is Canadian equity or Canadian index funds. I may even ask for registered certificate for certain Canadian stock. Does anybody know if transfer agents are considered FFI?
I just wish I can stop bringing up worse case scenario.
The only thing i may do is ask for my immigration file from freedom of information. Does anybody know if the same rules apply to green cards as they do to expatriate. If you got rid of the card 30 years ago you did not normally need to file.
I live in a basement suite and I know I will get nasty letter which I will ignore just hope my landlord will not raise an issue.
He is a naturalized
The 10% withholding is officially discussed here: http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Withholding-of-Tax-on-Dispositions-of-U.S.-Real-Property-Interests
Publication 519 explains how you get your 10% refunded (you have to get a TIN and you have to file a NRA tax return). In my personal opinion you should apply for a new TIN and not worry about being persecuted because of your prior US status.:
“Credit for tax withheld. The buyer must re-port and pay over the withheld tax within 20 days after the transfer using Form 8288, U.S. Withholding Tax Return for Dispositions by Foreign Persons of U.S. Real Property Interests. This form is filed with the IRS with copies A and B of Form 8288-A, Statement of Withholding on Dispositions by Foreign Persons of U.S. Real Property Interests. Copy B of this statement will be stamped received by the IRS and returned to you (the seller) if the statement is complete and includes your taxpayer identification number (TIN). You must file Copy B with your tax return to take credit for the tax withheld.
“A stamped copy of Form 8288-A will not be provided to you if your TIN is not included on that form. The IRS will send you a letter re-questing the TIN and providing instructions for how to get a TIN. When you provide the IRS with a TIN, the IRS will provide you with a stamped Copy B of Form 8288-A.”
@KalC, I believe that Money’s problem is that s/he has sold a condo and the real estate agent withheld 10% of the proceeds (note proceeds, not gains) under FIRPTA.
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/FIRPTA-Withholding
The problem, then, is how to get this 10% back and/or otherwise straighten out the mess. 10% of even a (metaphorically!) underwater condo’s value is still a considerable amount, and because there was no gain a full refund is due. Doing nothing would be horrifically expensive.
If this were me, I would file a 1040-nr and use my old SSN (request it from the US if forgotten). An I-407 from 2008, even if you lose your copy, is still a valid surrender of a green card, so the IRS has no reason to look for returns for the past six years. You should not need to enquire about your immigration status with State, but just behave always as an NRA (which you are!). The IRS could, I suppose, start looking for returns from the previous 24 years — left the US a long time before ditching the green card — but these are now past the SOL so it would not be at all straightforward for them. And if they do that for any reason, then you can just tell them to pound sand.
In other words, play the game their way and see if they cough up the refund. They should, so the chances are good that they will, and remote that anything else gets dredged up from the past. Of course, this assume no other skeletons in the closet beyond the ones already revealed.
A lawyer I was talking to mentioned there is matching of id between TIN and social security numbers. Also filling out W-7 means, I have to file a 1040 NR which requires Facta info. I do not want the 10% withholding back. Rather not file no extraditable crime there. Just do not want to do something that be considered perjury.
@ Money
I don’t know if this will help but when I made inquiries at USCIS regarding the status of my I-407 application I received this reply …
FROM: USCIS.CANADA@DHS.GOV
If you surrendered your green card, then the system should now reflect you formally abandoned the status. However, if you would like a copy of the I-407, you need to request this information through Form G-639, Freedom of Information Act request at:
USCIS Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) and Privacy Act (PA) Contact:
U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services
National Records Center, FOIA/PA Office
P. O. Box 648010
Lee’s Summit, MO 64064-8010
Fax: 816-350-5785
uscis.foia@dhs.gov
Or contact the
USCIS
Texas Service Center
PO Box 851892
Mesquite, TX 75185-1892
However, I have written several times to the Mesquite office and never received a reply. I have made inquiries at USCIS (Canada) and the US Consulate in Calgary to try to get an e-mail address or a phone number for the Mesquite office but no luck with that either.
When I downloaded the G-639 form I decided this was not a good route to take to try to find out what happened to my I-407 application but it may be appropriate for you because you did actually get an I-407 approval.
FROM FOIA G-639 pdf
Special Instructions :
DO NOT use this form:
* To determine the status of pending applications. (For status inquires, write to the USCIS office where the application was filed or call our National Customer Service Center at 1-800-375-5283.)
* For consular notification of a visa petition approval, (use Form I-824 Application for action on an Approved Application or Petition).
* For the return of original documents, (use Form G-884, Request for Return of Original Documents).
* For records of naturalization prior to September 27, 1906, (contact the clerk of court where naturalization occurred.)
* For information on USCIS manifest arrivals prior to December 1982, (contact the National Archives.)
* To obtain proof of status (i.e., Social Security benefit, Selective Service requirement).
The phone number above might be worth trying (it works from Canada) but I haven’t bothered with it yet. I’ve pretty much decided to let sleeping dogs lie at this point … until further panic attacks strike. 😉
@money:
Perhaps I am missing something. I was, briefly, a US vice consul which doesn’t credit me with a lot of knowledge, but my PhD happens to be in immigration law.
An L visa, once it expires (for change of employer or departure, usually) affords no rights. US-Personhood and continuing tax liability or expatriation tax is new. I’m not going to read this thread from the beginning, but what’s on this page suggests that your worries are overblown.
Lots of people, Amcits (or former Amcits) in fact, who were naturalised abroad before the current draconian expat taxes and penalties came about, are asserting that they were denaturalised in the USA as the State Dept. Web site says they could have been, and without a CLN are remaining abroad, for the avoidance of confrontation and the maintenance of doubt never returning to the USA, and essentially counting on the IRS having no standing to declare that they are still American citizens.
@Money, I don’t think you can get a new ITIN because you already have an SSN from your green card days. But… just use that. You ditched the green card informally about 30 years ago, and formally in 2008, so the IRS has no further hold on you, and hasn’t for a long time now.
And on “Also filling out W-7 means, I have to file a 1040 NR which requires Facta info”, I really don’t know what you mean here. I fill out a 1040 NR each year and never have to, nor am asked to include, form 8938. This and its equally invasive and nasty cousin, the FBAR, are not required from NRAs, and form no part of a completed 1040 NR return.
I applied for the Green card after I was in USA with L-1. I received green card at my old USA address I was already back in Canada. That year there was delay in sending them out.
I do not want the withholding back, I just do not want to file a W-7 or 1040 NR. It sound they make certain that a person with a social security number does not get a TIN. They match name, date of birth, place of birth and if a match occurs tin will not be issued There is an affidavit I signed that my correct TIN was my name. I did not know about W-7. I would have walked away from the condo, if I knew that I had to send in a W-7.
Does anybody have a detailed report about TIN trying not matching person ID to SIN?
Can You jut ask for the I-407 or final status from freedom of information file or do you need the whole file?
If I do not submit a TIN besides nasty letter what will happen.
Watcher. and Money The fees and worry for Money to deal with the southerners are far worse than doing nothing. Read what he has repeatedly said. ” I do not want the withholding back” He is very stressed out when he doesn’t need to be. The southerners have no time for him. They have no interest in him. They will ignore him so long as he ignores them. I’ve been there-done that.
@KalC, I just see no point in walking away from 10% of a property’s value. If that happens then the IRS has come out ahead purely through intimidation and aggressive (and unjustified) withholding. That’s immoral. Why not file the stupid paperwork and see if you can get it back? Worst case you give up later.
And yes, I realise that the costs involved with accountants and their ilk often outweigh the amounts being argued over. That’s just another facet of an already bad situation, and yet one more way that the IRS steals from taxpayers, both US persons and non-citizens alike.
Comments like “I have to file a 1040 NR which requires Facta info” indicate an erroneous understanding of the situation. Fix that and the fear starts to subside. Been there, done that.
My step mother son will file on her behalf and probably show a loss. They may get back to me.
Other the G-639 i plan to nothing. On the G-639 I will click I am no long a permanent resident hopefully the I-407 was filled. I went over the border 3 more times no hassle (Canadian passport stamped past 2 times) so I think it was submitted.
I even tried to get the Canadian government to check with American that I was no longer a non resident they can not do nothing. Which is amazing considering the US government is requesting private bank info on Canadian resident and citizens. I am requesting government info from another government No, They demand private info on Canadian private finances. yes. Does not seem right.
The other thing that is going to occur with FACTA is that a lot of snowbird stay for more than 120 days a year. A lot of them do not file closer connection paperwork. They do have bank and financial info sent to snow bird address. This will be considered a USA indices and they will be ticketed by Financial institutions.
Some of them also rent out there houses in winter, in that case it would not be considered a permanent home for closer connection. Some of them may have American parent or American birth place.
Watcher
This is what I think is FACTA related
Form 1040NR (2012)
Page
4
Schedule NEC—Tax on Income Not Effectively Connected With a U.S. Trade or Business
(see instructions)
Form 1040NR (2012)
Page
4
Schedule NEC—Tax on Income Not Effectively Connected With a U.S. Trade or Business
(see instructions)
Nature of income
Enter
amount of income
under the appropriate rate of tax (see instructions)
(a)
10%
(b)
15%
(c)
30%
(d)
Other (specify)
%
%
1
Dividends paid by:
a
U.S. corporations
1a
b
Foreign corporations
1b
2
Interest:
a
Mortgage
Paid by foreign corporations
The other things that got to me was the Social Security disability fraud in USA, plus the nonsense of mortgage interest deduction, people do not save or invest down there. They live pay check to pay check without trying to economize. Now they want some Canadian to pay their government bills.