Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
If clicking on a link brought you to the wrong page on the comment thread, click here to go to the current page.
Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
If clicking on a link brought you to the wrong page on the comment thread, click here to go to the current page.
Recently I visited the US person section of a US consulate in Canada and, while waiting, had a nice chat with my nearby seat-mates who happened to have appointments to leave the system.
I discovered that some US persons just prior to meeting the consular official, have no idea that “relinquishment” is even a possibility or any understanding of the difference between relinquishment vs. renunciation.
Not a random sample, but it demonstrates first to me personally that some US persons are (as we all know) trying to leave the system in Canada. However, lack of awareness of the existence of different options, even after paying for advice, is depressing.
From what I could gather during the wait, all were treated with good courtesy at the consulate.
Thanks, IRSCompliantForever,
It is certainly important to know the difference. My story would be much different if I had had information on claiming relinquishment before I made many mistakes that trapped me into renunciation of my US citizenship (and the cost and compliance of such) instead.
First, Thanks to all those who posted on this site with their observations and tips. Without this site I do not know if we would have been sucessful in our request to relinquish, let alone with such FAST results.
I was able to obtain via this site and the consular report copies of all the forms and the State Department proceedures for relinquishment and renouncement. Using all of this information I was fully prepared for any contignecy in filling out the forms and the embassy experience.
We are a special case in Israel, where it has been the State Departments policy in the past at least to consider anyone who makes Aliyah to Israel as a Jew to have automatically obtained citizenship by right of birth to a Jewish family. Therefore they have ruled that a Jew to makes alyiah can’t relinquish American citizenship (obtained by birth) by relinquishment due to taking citizenship as a Jew. We had some different circumstances that permitted our family to prove that we did have to make an applicaiton for citizenship and which was approved prior to Aliyah. Making ours a willful act, not automatic and thus covered by the rules.
I have seen via this site where one other person in Israel challenged the assumption of automatic citizenship in Israel in the District court of Washington DC and also prevailed in the Appeal to win his right for a relinquishment. It would seem from our process that this case has not yet (at least) affected the presumptions of automatic citizenship in Israel for Jews.
One other unusal factor in our case was that our DS4079s were sent to Washington for prior approval (three days turnaround) prior to our appointments being confirmed in Tel Aviv. When we arrived for our appointment all we had to do was confirm the accuracy of the documents and take the Oath for relinquishment.
Three of our family were processed and approved in this fashion, a fourth member was decliend the right to relinquish due to the fact that when she traveled to South Africa to see family the South African customs requied her to add pages to her US Passport. This was deemed by State to be an excersise of US citizenship. So she has to renounce.
It took 2 weeks to the day from our email request to get an appointment for relinquishment. Two more weeks to get our CLNs back. Three family members were processed one after the other in 45 minutes time at the Tel Aviv Embassy. It could not have been more relaxed or pleasant.
We were told by the very kind Embassy Officer on May 6th 2013 it would take two weeks to get our CLNs back from Washington. Today May 20th, 2012 I was emailed the following:
— From the Embassy today 5/20/2013 ——
The requests for relinquish your citizenship was approved. (S…, D…. and K…..)
Could I send the certificates via courier services. Courier services will call you and ask your credit card number to pay NIS40. They will schedule An appointment to bring it to your house.
Please advise the address where to send and tel. numbers.
Thank you.
Sincerely
M…. S….. /American citizen services unit
@Yitzi,
What a wonderful outcome for your family. Thanks for adding a new “chapter” for the Consulate Report Directory.
All here are very pleased that this site helped in your education about ‘relinquishment vs renunciation’ and being able to show that yours was a different circumstance than, in Israel, where it has been State Departments policy to consider anyone who makes Aliyah to Israel as a Jew to have automatically obtained citizenship by right of birth to a Jewish family and ruled that a Jew to makes alyiah can’t relinquish American citizenship (obtained by birth) by relinquishment due to taking citizenship as a Jew. Yours is the way the process should be everywhere — efficient and fast. Excellent information for others!
You have also pointed out the travel of your other family member’s use of US passport for travel being the reason he/she could not claim relinquishment but instead had to renounce.
Congratulations to you all — and thanks so much for reporting it here!
@calgary411
Thank you! I hope we can help others in some small way. I forgot to mention that in Relinquishment our CLN (loss of US citizenship certificate) was back dated to Dec, 28, 2005 the day we became citizens in our new home.
Yitzi
@Yitzi: Thanks for the update.
As I mentioned earlier, I tried to relinquish my citizenship based on my aliyah in 2002, but since the state department’s policy before the lawsuit was that “aliyah” is automatic acquisition I was basically compelled to renew my u.s. passport in 2006 since they [after an informal inquiry–never got to speak to a consular officer–even trying to go to the tel-aviv embassy in 2002 (before they had appointments)–couldn’t really speak to anyone about it then] said I would have to formally renounce (having basically they said “you can’t lose citizenship making Aliyah” back then).
Since I was in a hurry to get to the states on a last minute trip and didn’t have time to argue the facts formally to a consular officer and therefore was ineligible to travel to the states on a visa without formally renouncing (and they wouldn’t have recognized section 1 requirements anyway in 2006), so I let the issue slide. On Feb 5, I submitted DS-4079 to Kirk G. Smith, consular officer at Jerusalem and he submitted the facts to D.C. and the DS determined and Kirk sent me a formal letter in the last week of April confirming that my request for a CLN relinquishment under section 1 was denied in that I “desired to retain my citizenship because I renewed a passport” even though I had little choice in the matter because of the circumstances of not recognizing section 1 via aliyah. (back then). I immediately replied on that I want to renounce then. Then I made an appointment on May 6.
I went back for my third visit on May 6 in the afternoon and brought my wife along since she wanted to ask him about the kids “what is there status if I never register them?…I don’t want them to have US citizenship–they already have UK and Israeli citizenship, etc.” In any event he explained it to her. I paid the $450 and went back to the window. Kirk had a woman who seemed like he was training in Consular work. She filled out the DS-4080, then I signed the DS-4081 in front of Kirk. He stamped it. Then he said “raise your right hand”, and I read the paragraph on the DS-4080 for renunciation. Then he said “Are you sure you want me to sign this? I can still refund your money…” I told him to sign, it. He retained my passport. He also commented “not that many people do these”…maybe he should read the statistics posted here on the real number…maybe not a lot in Israel…but lots in other parts of the American Diaspora.
That was basically it and he said it will take about a month for the DS to approve it. My wife asked him why it took so long to get a s.1 relinquishment rejected (feb 5 to late april) and he said “it took a long time because they were considering whether you can relinquish via aliyah under s.1″…but I guess they have changed their policy now, because the rejection letter for my reason was because of the US passport renewal.
I’ll try to let you know when I receive my CLN in the mail.
@ BenPloni
Hatzlacha (Success) with your application! Renouncement or Relinquishment is a subject very rarely brought up in the US expatriate community here. I think part of it is culturally unique to the Jewish diaspora mentality. For my family it was a natural progression of our love and commitment to our homeland. As you point out there are many possible obstacles to relinquishment, things like voting in the US, paying taxes to the US, travel on / renewal of a US passport, property ownership in the US, maintaining a professional license in the US, all of which can / or make the bar for relinquishment pretty high.
BenPloni, it appears your claim of relinquishment in Jerusalem, which was eventually denied by reason of US passport renewal, was a significant part of Mr. Kirk’s and Israel’s education on “relinquishment”. It is so encouraging to see that Yitzi and others in her family were able to find a way to prove relinquishment in Tel Aviv. I wish that could have been your result as well. We will wait to see what happens in the Joseph Zernik case. Thanks to all of you for contributing to the very important story here.
@Yitzi
Todah! Actually, the letter said “Because you made no effort to obtain a CLN before now…”…that was the killer. Actually I made an informal effort to ask the staff, but I didn’t mention it to Kirk because he didn’t even think you could relinquish under section 1 or 2 (as if they never existed)..he only mentioned army, political office or treason (s. 3,4 and 7)…so at the time it seemed kind of pointless to argue with staff who disagreed with the concept of s.1 relinquishment existed at all…which killed my request since they may have recognized it retroactively if they were at least aware I tried to ask the staff before about it. But I wanted DC to look at it since the local ACS staff (then and now) seemed clueless (and he didn’t even think you could lose citizenship at all via s.1..so what was the point in arguing with him)…
We appreciate the additional information, Yitzi, that your CLN’s were back dated to the date of your Israeli citizenship. Also, I learned a new word and hope we can use it for more who will report here from your new country! Hatzlacha for your family and to BenPloni. Thanks once again!
FYI: The AACI page needs to be upadted in light of the lawsuit…it currently says:
http://www.aaci.org.il/articlenav.php?id=34
“The U.S. State Department does not regard automatic acquisition of Israeli citizenship (Par. 2 or the Nationality Law of Israel) as an expatriatory act so the issue of intent does not even arise. However, if someone acquires Israeli citizenship by naturalization, his application (Par. 5 of the Nationality Law) can be regarded as a potential expatriating act. However, if the State Department cannot prove that the person intended thereby to give up his U.S. citizenship, the citizenship is not lost. Please consult an AACI counselor before doing this.”
Is “Todah” thank you? If so, Todah for your significant efforts to “educate” the uneducated there. May all after you expatriating in Israel benefit from your unfortunate experience with the unknowing DOS officials.
@BenPloni
Yes, it’s sad you fell victim to the presumptions of someone who informally handled your case.
Since I was able to find very little information about the process with the embassy here in Israel, I decided to use this site to research everything to the nth degree before my first contact with the DOS. In fact my first email resulted in a return email with instructions on how to Renounce. The staff at the embassy were very polite and professional in conduct but seemed to know little about the process of relinquishment. I very carefully via several emails laid out my goal of relinquishment and enclosed all the required DOS paperwork obtained via this site, all carefully filled out with the benefit of the information I got here and after having studied the State Department Procedures for the consular staff also found via this site. In a sense, I gently walked them through the process of my family’s relinquishment.
@BenPloni.
Thanks for indicating that important change. Revision will be done by pacifica777 as soon as she is able to read of this significant change. My regards and best wishes to all of you.
@Calgary:
That site is AACI (Association of Americans and Canadians in Israel)….it’s not something on IB, but it’s the only source confirming the old policy of the state department I’ve seen besides Kenneth Fox’s lawsuit.
Thanks so much, BenPloni. Perhaps we can correspond the important information you’ve pointed out. I’ll doing some checking. (…and we also must highlight this in our information.)
@calgary411, @BenPloni, @pacifica777
Here is the a link to the pdf version of the court decision relating to Aliyah and US Citizenship.
US Court of Appeals, District of Columbia Circuit, Decided June 12, 2012 NO. 11-5010 Kenneth R. Fox vs. Hillary Rodham Clinton, Secretary of State.
http://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/0E0B84A6A298A92385257A1B004EF146/$file/11-5010-1378147.pdf
@Calgary: No problem. I told Pacifica about this several weeks ago, but if you want we can discuss. She has my e-mail
@Yitzi:
Thanks. I actually e-mailed the lawyer who represented Kenneth Fox. He said we could administratively appeal my case and it would cost at least (he figured 10 hours x $300 an hour min.)– $3,000 and we’d probably lose…then we could sue the DS in court and we’d probably win, but it would cost at least $10,000 for that. Seemed like renouncing under s.5 for $450 and was a better deal, so I just did that.
@BenPloni
What a shame! It costs so much to fight for what is really yours in the first place. I was blessed by G-d to have found this site and the good fortune to be able to use it to navigate the process successfully.
I also forgot to mention, Kirk said the whole relinquishment/renunciation thing was a “steep learning curve” for him.
Yes it is a steep learning curve. I estimate that I spent over 200 hours over the last few months researching and learning to prepare before my first contact with the embassy. I knew their procedures better than they did, I got them from this site. I had seen an earlier post by BenPloni and others which tipped me off to the uphill battle here in Israel. After reviewing the consular reports and seeing only bad news there for Israelis, I was going to be as fully prepared as possible. I estimated that I was going to get only one shot at relinquishment and that I could not afford a court battle to contest for it if was not successful in making my case on the first try. I would have renounced if I had been forced to, I had the money in my pocket if it came to that.
@Yitzi, BenPloni, pacifica,
In the interim, I sent an email to AACI (Association of Americans and Canadians in Israel) asking them if they can update their statement and gave a link to our discussions here. I also forwarded what I sent to pacifica. If you have been discussing this, I may have overstepped my bounds.
BenPloni, that is very interesting and positive that Mr. Kirk said the whole relinquishment/renunciation thing was a “steep learning curve” for him!
Thanks once again to both you and Yitzi for this informative discussion.
@Yitzi,
Congratulations! And thank you very much for sharing your experience! There is so much in your report, both the general detail and specifically regarding an s. (1) in conjunction with making aliyah.
We haven’t heard much from Israel and until today everything I’ve heard has sounded like it’s difficult and/or staff wasn’t much up to speed on expatriation matters.
Interesting. A excellent move on the consulate’s part if they weren’t sure what to do, rather than just steering a person away from s.(1). [My feeling is that nobody (or no office) is perfect, so I cut them a bit of slack if they don’t know everything and find out about it – it’s when they assume they know stuff they’re clueless about that I find completely unacceptable.] And it’s great that you know having completed your application, that there is absolutely no uncertainty.
A consulate here in Canada (which has since cleaned up its act) tried to prevent me from applying for an s.(1) in early 2012, despite the fact I was a slam-dunk (no ties to the US for almost 40 years). They were quite nasty about it. Had I not done advance research on the topic, I would have had the wool pulled over my eyes (and my life rewritten) by them, as happened to two others there.
So, I know first-hand how important research can be! I’m glad the Brock community was here to provide information for you. And thank you for providing information for others!
@BenPloni,
Congratulations, finally, that your CLN is in process!
I was really disappointed that they didn’t let you go for an s.(1), because your life is what it is, and the US really dropped the ball when you approached the consulate back in 2002. Since it was pre-Fox, I guess that makes 2002 a bit murky, but still it sounds like they were inaccurate and uniformed then, and it sounds like they weren’t on the ball in 2012 either. It’s obvious from reading your posts this winter that you put a lot of work into this.
I really appreciate your having kept us apprised of your case throughout. I think, too, that as well educating the Brock community, you’ve actually played a big role in educating the Jerusalem Consulate.
I’m really happy that you’ve finished with the US once and for all. And thanks again!