Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart            Part 2

1,560 thoughts on “Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart            Part 2”

1. I completely agree, and it really was this site, and Keith Redmond, who saved me! My husband, friends, and family didn’t know what to do to help me. Some friends didn’t have a clue why I had suddenly become so different, as I didn’t like to tell everyone about the situation. I wasn’t sleeping, couldn’t concentrate on anything, and couldn’t see a way out. As you know, I even got completely paranoid about posts I’d made on this site! Your description is perfect Pacifica, you really feel like you are having an out of body experience. I don’t think anyone who hasn’t been through the experience could truly understand the trauma it causes. I really feel so much better, and just hope others find this group before making their decisions. I very nearly made the wrong one!

2. I contacted the US Embassy in late September 2019 and was given an appointment at the US Embassy in London on 06th November. My COLN came through really quickly. Not sure the exact date but when I came home from a holiday on December 01st, it was waiting for me to collect at my local Post Office. From start to finish, it took about 2 months.

3. @ Michael Marian
   Congratulations! That’s a very good turnaround. What a nice early Christmas present.

4. @Michael,
   Congratulations and thanks for sharing the news. I”ll add it to the Consulate Report Directory.

5. I am the young person referenced in the Isaac Brock thread from March 2019 located here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2019/03/07/young-adult-person-subjected-to-intense-grilling-at-u-s-consulate-in-canada-during-request-to-renounce-united-states-citizenship/

   I have finally gotten around the writing up my experience during my renunciation at that time, and I wanted to share it with the wider world and I would appreciate it very much if the moderator of this section could include it in the Consulate Report Directory PDF.

   The full account of my experience is given in the next post. I can assure you that I am not “fake news”, as some commenters suggested at the time.

6. In July 2018, I sent an email request for a renunciation appointment to be scheduled for after my 18th birthday, since I was not yet 18 years old at the time. I needed to wait until my birthday because according to U.S. law, they can deny an application from minors, but they cannot deny an application from a legal adult unless they suspect that said adult is being coerced. In January 2019 I finally received a reply, scheduling an appointment at the Halifax consulate for March 2019.

   On the day of the appointment, I arrived a few minutes early and had to wait for the consulate to open (I think I was the first item on their schedule for that day). The building where the consulate is located is very nice and modern, full of business suites for law firms and the like. The consulate occupies its own floor accessible only by elevator, and when I got there, I had to buzz in using what looked like a doorbell camera from an apartment building. Once inside the consulate proper, there was only a single guard, who was quite friendly until I informed him that I was carrying an Epi-Pen because of my severe food allergy. He seemed worried about this as if it was some sort of threat and confiscated it, saying that I could have it back when I left. I asked him what would happen if I needed it, and he obfuscated for a few seconds before telling me to continue into the waiting area, never answering my question. The consulate itself is very small – a single room with about 20 chairs in the middle, three bank teller-style windows in one wall, and the guard’s desk and metal detector by the entrance. At this point the guard and I were the only people in the room.

   I waited for probably 15 minutes before a clerk appeared in one of the windows and called my name. She took my documentation and I sat back down and waited for probably another 10 minutes before my name was called again. I went up to the next window and paid the $2,350 USD in cash, which the clerk seemed irritated by. She gave me a receipt and told me to wait again. While I was waiting a family came into the consulate for what I think was U.S. travel visas, based on snippets of conversation I accidentally overheard. After maybe 20 more minutes of waiting I was called to the third window, which had a chair set out in front. I sat down, and the woman behind the window introduced herself as the vice-consul. We had to speak through microphones that didn’t work very well and kept cutting out, and there was a slot at the bottom of the window for passing documents through.

   The vice-consul started by asking me to confirm my identity and my intent to renounce my citizenship. I raised my right hand and swore to tell the truth, as directed. The vice-consul then began going through my documents and asked me about the circumstances of my birth. From this point forward I remember clearly what was said but I cannot recall exactly the order of events because the questioning became very intense and intimidating, and I went into autopilot mode. The consulate probably knows exactly how the conversation played out, however, due to the surveillance camera conveniently located right above the interview window.

   I do remember that it began with her incredulity that I was trying to renounce at only 18 years old, because according to her, I didn’t have enough life experience to do so. She asked me why I chose to renounce at this time, and I said it was because I legally could and wanted to, and she seemed irritated by my lack of elaboration. Since I was still in high school, had not travelled extensively outside of North America, had not been to the U.S. much in the past few years, and had yet to vote in any election, she claimed that I clearly didn’t know enough about the world to make such a monumental decision. I told her that I planned to vote and travel later and just had not been able to do so yet because I was not old enough, but she wasn’t satisfied. She asked me to list everywhere I had ever lived, and what jobs my parents held in each location. When I told her that some of my parents’ jobs were with the U.S. government, she seemed very suspicious about it. She also made some strange comments about the fact that we moved quite often during my childhood, as if she suspected that we were involved in something shady.

   Now, the law clearly states that I don’t have to give a reason, but she told me in no uncertain terms that a person as young as me must prove to her that I am of sound enough mind and have a good enough reason to renounce. This is blatantly untrue, and I knew that during the interview, but I felt very intimidated by the vice-consul and I had to appease her in order to get through the interview and not waste the massive amount of money I had just paid. She asked me about my career aspirations, and when I told her that I might go into medicine, she said that I should keep an open mind about medical school and residency in the States. When I told her I would rather stay in Canada for my education, she seemed bewildered and asked me if I had really thought about it, because if I had thought about it properly, I must be at least considering going to the U.S. I said I had considered it plenty, and I preferred Canada. She kept pressing me about it, asking me why I didn’t go to university in the States, or take a gap year and travel there. I said I didn’t want to. Every time I said I didn’t want to go to the U.S. her expression became more and more confused. She then said that I should keep my citizenship because if I ever decide to travel internationally, American diplomats and military can provide more protection if I get kidnapped abroad. She said that a maple leaf on my backpack can only get me so far, that nothing can protect me as well as a U.S. passport, and because of that I need to keep my citizenship for my own safety while travelling. I didn’t know quite how to respond to that, so I just said that I had made my decision and hoped she’d back off. She didn’t.

   Sometime after that she began trying to construct a case that my parents were coercing me into renouncing. She started asking all sorts of leading questions – were my parents still citizens, did we discuss renunciation at home, did I go with them to their renunciation appointments, how long I had been thinking about renouncing, did they suggest that I do it, and did they drive me to my appointment that day. I answered that I did hear about it from them but that the decision to renounce was my own; and furthermore, since I can’t drive and am from out of town, I couldn’t have gotten there without being driven by my parents. She seemed very confused by my answers and muttered under her breath several times that she didn’t understand my reasoning.

   The vice-consul also asked me about my Canadian citizenship. I naturalized when I was a kid, having moved to Canada at a young age. She asked me why I didn’t want to stay as a dual citizen, and I told her it was because I felt Canadian, not American, and I didn’t want to keep a nationality I didn’t identify with. She didn’t take that as an answer, so I said I thought it would be easier to just have one citizenship. She said that having American citizenship had no downsides, and used herself as an example – she explained that she had a very high security clearance and an important job in the U.S. foreign service and her dual Canadian/American citizenship didn’t cause any problems for her. I thought it was rather inappropriate for her to be talking about details of her job, especially her security clearance, in a renunciation interview, but I didn’t say anything about it. She clearly expected me to acquiesce and admit that she was right, but I just said that I wanted to get rid of my American citizenship and that I was determined to go through with it. She was visibly frustrated by my response, and said again that she didn’t understand my reasoning.

   She also had a very low opinion of young people such as myself, which came out on multiple occasions during the interview. She made several comments about young people being impatient, not understanding the world, making uninformed decisions, et cetera. She said at one point that I was being naive, that young people are always so blasé about serious matters, and that I would surely regret this decision once I was older and wiser. I felt insulted by the constant references to my youth, and during the entire interview I felt I was being treated like a child.

   The interview went on for about half an hour of hard grilling before the vice-consul suddenly gave up. I think she was trying to wear me down and intimidate me into cancelling my renunciation, and after I refused to do so, she decided to drop it. After she asked me her last question, she audibly sighed and pushed the papers I would need to sign through the slot in the window. She asked me to read several documents and summarize them for her. I did so, signed both copies, and gave them back in exchange for the the document containing the oath of renunciation. I had expected to raise my hand, swear, or do something officially binding while reciting the oath, but she just asked me to read the oath out loud, which I did. I signed both copies of the oath and gave them back. Meanwhile, it was very clear that the family in the waiting area had heard everything that was said between the vice-consul and myself, and it was unexpectedly very embarrassing to have to defend my decision to renounce my citizenship from a high-ranking diplomat in front of people who were actively trying to get into the U.S.

   The vice-consul went on to explain that Washington would respond in a few months with either a CLN or a letter of denial, and that I would have to be patient. She added another rude comment under her breath about people my age being impatient. She also said that young people who decided to do this often come to regret their decision after a couple months, and if I regret mine before receiving my CLN, I could write the consulate and try to get it stopped. She also gave me a temporary CLN to use if I had to travel abroad before the legitimate one arrived. She returned my documents to me and very brusquely asked me to leave. I reclaimed my Epi-Pen from the guard and left the consulate without incident. The appointment took around an hour and 15 minutes in total, about half of which constituted the interview. After I left, I was externally calm but internally very shaken, since I felt that my rights had been violated. The vice-consul abused her position of authority over me during the interview in order to intimidate me into keeping my citizenship, and I was very afraid that my application would be rejected. It felt like I was trying to a leave a cult.

   My CLN arrived in April 2019, just over a month after my renunciation appointment. I was surprised that it arrived so quickly, but I was also very relieved that I had been approved after all. I was glad to have it over and done with. Forever.

7. Sorry you got a grilling – though not particularly surprised given your age – and glad to hear that the CLN came through. Even after hearing the story first-hand, I think this comment made at the time still stands:

   Leaving aside the question of whether the official in question crossed a line into obstruction or rattled off a string of BS excuses – and that may be slightly hard to know in a second-hand retelling of one side of the story – I would say that I don’t find it at all unusual or inappropriate for a consul to spend more time examining a potential renunciant of such tender years. Particularly since parents will have been involved in the decision and almost certainly provided the funds.

   There are obvious cases where it makes sense for someone to renounce at 18, such as in Switzerland where FATCA rules would make it impossible for a dual citizen to take up a financial industry apprenticeship, or even to start a proper pension when they begin working. But that can be clearly stated in the interview, since it’s not exactly tax avoidance.

   Otherwise I think it’s a big decision to take at such an early stage in life, when compliance is either painless or easily avoided, and particularly in countries where there are no issues with bank access. This is not a judgement of a person’s maturity at age 18, but simply pointing out that they are potentially giving up useful opportunities if their future plans include advanced study and travel. No sane person should pay for an undergraduate degree at inflated US prices, but graduate school is another matter – there can be generous funding at excellent universities. (Yes, most of that is still available to non-citizens, but life is much easier when you can skip the visa line and have unrestricted permission to work.)

   That’s gone on long enough. My own recently adult child, who is dual but fortunately not born in the US, has agreed with my recommendation to keep her US citizenship secret but not renounce until such time as her plans have crystallized, which I’d guess is probably around age 30.

   Otherwise, we discussed it to death at the time, no need to repeat.

8. @Inconthievable,

   Sorry you had such a bad experience renouncing. It was bad reading Stephen’s mention of it in his post last Spring and it seems even worse reading your detailed description of the event. I find it one of the most disturbing I’ve read and I’ve been tracking the consulates for eight years now.

   Attempting to ascertain that a person, especially a young one, is sure of what they’re doing by asking a few respectful questions is reasonable. Browbeating definitely is not.

   You mention, “The appointment took around an hour and 15 minutes in total, about half of which constituted the interview.”

   So, about 30-45 minutes with the vice consul, the purpose of which was . . . entertainment for the vice consul, IMO. From what you’ve written, you’re clearly very articulate and had well thought things out before renouncing, so, despite your age it should not have taken much longer than with an older person — not to mention the time she was wasting with inaccurate/inappropriate comments/questions.

   I am glad you got your CLN quickly (especially glad since you had such a bad experience) and I appreciate your sharing your report, which I’ll add to the Consulate Report Directory. Congratulations on getting your CLN and Big Congratulations on standing your ground!

9. @ inconthievable
   Congratulations on receiving your CLN with thankfully no DOS objections ( a one month turnaround is swift and very satisfactory). Contrary to what may be some people’s opinion I feel the vice-consul’s intense grilling of you was inappropriate. Anyone not blinded by American exceptionalism whould have, within a very few minutes, been able to determine that you are a thoughtful, articulate and determined person who made a well-reasoned decision to renounce your US citizenship. The demeaning and condescending attitude of this vice-consul was unprofessional (some of those questions were beyond the pale) and, in my opinion, this type of intimidation should be nipped in the bud. Now that you have your CLN safely in hand have you considered filing a complaint with the DOS?

   I join Pacifica in thanking you for sharing the details of your appointment with us. I see you as a bright, young-in-years-only, person with great prospects for success in whatever future you choose for yourself.

10. @incontheivable

    You are an extremely articulate and rational young person and I have no doubt that you will not regret your decision. If the US allows people to renounce at 18, they should not treat people as though they don’t know what they are doing at 18. I’m glad it bothered her though – she may come to realize that the US us losing a lot of great people with their stupid laws.

    @all, @incontheivable wrote, “and if I regret mine before receiving my CLN, I could write the consulate and try to get it stopped.”

    I’ve lately wondered if Andrew Scheer has put the brakes on his renunciation now that he has resigned as Conservative Party leader. I also wonder if he used campaign finances to pay the renunciation fee…

11. @ BB
    I wondered the same thing about Andrew Scheer over at Café Moi. Maybe the name & shame list will confirm or maybe not, since it is so lacking in accuracy. I can’t remember who said it where, quite recently, that they only put wealthy people on the list. LOL my husband is on the list and he certainly isn’t in that category.
    https://cafemoi.wordpress.com/2019/10/12/andy-scheer-leader-of-the-conservative-party-of-canada-irs-tax-target/#comments

12. A different comment from the past on the subject of a young person making the choice to end U.S. citizenship is also worth repeating. One size does not fit all.

    On Sept. 22, 2014, YogaGirl wrote:
    “Someone pointed out to me that I was doing my child a disservice in allowing her to try to relinquish b/c she isn’t mature enough to understand what she is giving up.

    As I see it – and explained to her – she is giving up only the right to live and work in the USA, but in doing so, she is gaining the right to live ANYWHERE else in the world with access to jobs and education and a financial future that every other kid she knows has.

    Why should she be limited to just the mid-section of North America because she was born there? That’s not freedom. But it is, apparently, the American version of it.”
    http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/09/22/the-widening-gap-for-the-cost-of-freedom-from-us-citizenship-and-us-tax-compliance/comment-page-1/#comment-3100835

13. YogaGirl: I believe one can make a reasoned decision about a serious matter at 18. However, I would like to respond to your reason given to the person who suggested you were doing your child a disservice: “but in doing so (renunciating), she is gaining the right to live ANYWHERE else in the world with access to jobs and education and a financial future that every other kid she knows has.”

    She does not have this “right” to a job and education “anywhere in the world” unless she becomes a citizen there. She will be accepted according to criteria set by that country, a number of whom have quotas or restrictions on length of stay. Unless she speaks other languages or plans to learn, she will be able to work or attend school primarily in English-speaking countries, so that’s another consideration.

    I’d consider what is the primary reason the 18-year-old wants to renounce. If it is attached to compliance (FATCA, etc) I’d say wait; between 18 and around 30 is a time to keep doors open. (Yes, the fees could go up, but is that a paramount reason?)

    This is from a person who renounced US citizenship (but not until much older!), and who, at 21, made a decision to immigrate from the US to Canada, alone and over family objections. And from a person who raised a couple of intelligent, politically-progressive children who at 18 could make good decisions… most of the time.

14. “Maybe the name & shame list will confirm or maybe not, since it is so lacking in accuracy.”

    I know somebody has made a freedom of information request to find out how many CLN’s have been issued. They took two years to respond and say they will have the numbers for him in…two more years.

15. @pacifica777, @EmBee, @BB
    Thank you for your support, and for recognizing that this was a (needlessly) difficult experience for me. I’m just relieved that I have my CLN safely in hand! I’m considering filing a complaint with the DOS but I haven’t made up my mind yet.

    @Ron Henderson,
    Concerning the post you quoted, I disagree with this characterization of me and people my age. It was a big decision – probably one of the biggest I will ever make – and I’m sure I won’t regret it. I don’t care if my career is hindered somewhat by having to give up advanced study opportunities in the United States. If I do end up following a life sciences career path, I refuse to be a part of a medical system that bankrupts people on a daily basis – I’m pretty sure that doing irreparable financial harm violates the Hippocratic Oath. I made this decision partly for ethical reasons, not just personal and financial freedom.

16. Oh I’m not suggesting that you don’t have the right to renounce at 18 – and you were granted your CLN, after all – but rather that, to me at any rate, it’s neither surprising nor particularly troubling that a consular official would pay extra attention in your case, because of both youth in general and the possibility of parental pressure.

    Out of curiosity, did you or your parents finance the renunciation fee? It’s not a small amount of money for a typical recent high school graduate.

    It’s certainly your decision and one that I’m sure you’ve carefully considered. In parental shoes I’d have advised waiting until after university, at least. What’s the rush? There’s certainly no reason for someone in your position to either admit US citizenship to a bank (thus avoiding FATCA) or begin filing US tax returns. You were at no risk from the IRS.

17. Why should giving up US citizenship hinder anyone from taking up advanced study opportunities or work in the US?
    My British nephew has just completed a masters in pharmacology in the US.
    I was not a US citizen when I was offered a one year medical sabbatical in the US after which I was offered a permanent position there… (which unfortunately later morphed into a decision to take US citizenship which I later renounced.)
    As a non US citizen inconthievable will be treated as any other alien who would qualify and chose to work or study in the US.
    Who knows how difficult it will become to renounce in the future the US has a habit of moving the goalposts.

18. @RH
    You are bringing on a spectre of american “special-ity”when you suggest to a young individual to hold onto the american citzenship as a sort of ace card in the future. That is the old salt back in the day when europeans even dreamed the american dream. Please don’t confuse this young man with obsolete notions.

19. @RR
    You are right, America is no longer in the forefront of many areas especially medicine. Time has moved on and better opportunities can be found elsewhere.

20. Having US citizenship made my life moderately easier when going to grad school south of the border. I qualified for certain types of federal aid, and could easily work during a last-minute gap year between programs. Of course I could still have studied as a Canadian, but being dual was very convenient.

    My point is not that US citizenship is particularly special or valuable, but rather that if there’s no risk or cost to having it – which is currently true for any non-compliant Canadian – then why be in such a hurry to get rid of it? In my own case, at a much later stage in life, I simultaneously have no desire to ever set foot in the US again, but also see no reason to spend money renouncing the citizenship.

21. @ Heidi @RR

    As for which path to take regarding US citzenship,ignoring or renouncing,that is purely a matter of the heart. As for advising a young man to hold onto that ace card, US citzenship , seems convenient as it did for RR personally but don’t assume that that convenience translates automatically to success for everyone who enters the US. One can end up just as easily in a low end lifetime job in the US as anywhere else . At least elsewhere ,you have social welfare and health care net.

    Sorry,I can’t put up with the american dream clap trap. I have heard it too many times before.

    Merry Christmas to all.

22. @RR

    If by RR you actually meant RH, i.e. me, in that reply, you are rather missing the point. There neither is nor was any pursuit of the American dream under consideration, no interest in “success” south of the border. It was simply quite convenient to have US citizenship over the course of my education and, even today, there is zero risk to a Canadian citizen/resident keeping it.

23. @RH
    Sorry, it should have been RH . Too much good cheer I guess.
    I understand your point .

    I haven’t filed in over five decades and extortion,I will not pay.

    Having an ever more self indulgent southern neighbor and Canada’s economic dependence on that neighbor and coupled with a very weak Canadian federal government doesn’t inspire me that things will stay the same .

24. I really appreciate the discussion that my experience at the consulate has generated and, as I have said before, I especially appreciate the kind words from many here on this forum. However, I would like to correct an assumption made by @Robert Ross – I am actually a young woman, not a young man. In fact, I wonder if the Vice Consul would have taken me more seriously if I had been a young man? I am speculating, but that may have had something to do with it.

25. Dear Brockers,

    This will be my last post, also I am ending my blog update emails.
    Last year I suffered a severe meningitis after which I apparently went back to work too early and worked too hard earning money that the IRS can never claim a share on (because I wanted to, not because I had to). It turns out it was too much and now I’m mentally damaged and may have suffered a stroke, too. I guess I’ll be ok; the German health and social system are already doing good by me and I feel I can trust them not to let me fall. What those taxes they wanted me to pay would be doing for me now, your guess is as good as mine.
    Anyway, I just wanted to say goodbye and thank you for all your support in my efforts to understand and free myself from US slavery. I’m glad I got out when I did because if I was going through the process now, they might not let me out. Probably punish me for being willfully not able to know or understand (I mean, not knowing is already willful).
    Feel free to answer or discuss this, but don’t be offended if I don’t answer. I won’t be reading. Just too hard for my mind. @mods, please put this in the proper discussion.
    One last thing: please get out while the getting’s good, one cannot foresee what may happen.

    Unforgiven Too