Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
If clicking on a link brought you to the wrong page on the comment thread, click here to go to the current page.
Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
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If clicking on a link brought you to the wrong page on the comment thread, click here to go to the current page.
“If the … [individual] was born outside the US…”
An adult person who wasn’t born in the US and hasn’t taken steps as an adult to claim US citizenship, presumably would have no US indicia and therefore shouldn’t have a FATCA problem.
The bank might not want the person as a customer, if the manager knows of the US parentage, but a rejected US passport application would seem likely to confirm the manager’s anxieties rather than allay them.
“I just don’t see what the problem is? What problem would be fixed by applying for a US passport and getting refused?”
I wonder if Calgary411 would have patience to repeat the story of her son. She could take her son to the US embassy in Santo Domingo, somehow get him to apply for a first US passport as an adult, get his rejection, and he’ll be free.
To speak without reference to specific individuals: you’re suggesting that
a person who has (under duress) been registered by parents as a US citizen,
and cannot under US law renounce because of inability to understand the consequences,
could apply for a US passport at the only known US consulate that might refuse, get refused, and then rely on the refusal letter as proof of non-US-citizenship?
Maybe. I wouldn’t want to try it, if I were the person’s parent or guardian, because in effect I would just be confirming that I, the person’s parent/guardian, believed s/he was a US citizen. Who knows what unintended consequences that could have, in future – especially if the rejection was of dubious validity, as seems to be the case with this imaginary rejection.
Let’s keep it simple:
Not born in US > never file returns, never admit to US personhood > never have any FATCA or IRS problems.
End of issue.
When renouncing or submitting a claim for relinquishment, even if the console who does your interview thinks that your claim is invalid, he must submit it to Washington DC. Only the DOS there can rule on your case.
It seems to me that a rejected passport application in Santa Domingo is only a clerical issue, and not a legal declaration that one is not a US citizen. For all we know, the rejection letter if it’s even put in writing might simply say “due to our limited resources, we are unable to verify your eligibilty for a US passport at this location. Please apply somewhere else.”
“For all we know, the rejection letter if it’s even put in writing might simply say “due to our limited resources, we are unable to verify your eligibilty for a US passport at this location. Please apply somewhere else.”
Or: we’ve sent your application to Washington for processing; that’ll be another 150 dollars please. 🙂
This ploy violates the one rule that I think all Brockers always agree on, namely never to do anything to demonstrate that you believe you are a US citizen and want to exercise some benefit of that right.
People make their choices according to their circumstances and aims, surely. Some definitely do want the passport, right of entry, access to USC tax breaks, etc,
Update, then: “Assuming you want neither the benefits nor obligations of US citizenship, this ploy violates the one rule that I think all Brockers always agree on, namely never to do anything to demonstrate that you believe you are a US citizen and want to exercise some benefit of that right.”
I personally can’t think of anything dumber than trooping off to the Caribbean in the hope that a rejected US a passport application will somehow equal a bargain-price renunciation. If you’re not born in the US, don’t act like a US citizen. Basta. Problem solved.
@WhatAmI
This ploy violates the one rule that I think all Brockers always agree on, namely never to do anything to demonstrate that you believe you are a US citizen and want to exercise some benefit of that right.”
Thank you for confirming to me that I am not just imagining that I’m getting drummed out of Brock.
Nononymous:
“Update, then: “Assuming you want neither the benefits nor obligations of US citizenship, this ploy violates the one rule that I think all Brockers always agree on, namely never to do anything to demonstrate that you believe you are a US citizen and want to exercise some benefit of that right.” ”
Why does there have to be a rule?
Applying for a passport in the hope of not getting it doesn’t seem a practical choice, to me. IMO. If anybody fancies their chances, it’s up to them.
“Rule” wasn’t my wording.
As for the rest of it, one is free to try but it seems a particularly ill-advised scheme.
Yep, I agree.
But goodness knows this US citizenship thing is a tangle. Some cul-de-sacs are bound to pop up as people consider possibilities, I suppose.
The “rule” is only in regards to accidentals or naturalizers who intend or hope to someday claim a backdated relinquishment based on their intent at the time. This “trick” could put such a claim in jeopardy. If I remember correctly, somewhere in the FAM it advises consuls to base their decisions on actions, not words.
Plaxy already improved my wording but the word “rule” would have been better phrased as “piece of advice.”
A follow-up from this post:
“Chicken Assembler says
May 24, 2016 at 11:40 am
I am an accidental American born in the US to Canadian parents who left when he was 3 years old never to return. No passport, no social security number, nada.
I just received a letter from the Consulate in Barcelona – where I submitted my documentation in July 2015 accrediting my relinquishment for having worked at Health and Welfare Canada in the late 1980′s – saying that “the Department was unable to approve my CLN” as I “failed to establish by a preponderance of the evidence, as required by INA Section 349(b), that you have expatriated yourself by the voluntary commission of an expatriating act with the intent to relinquish citizenship.”
I had a certificate from Health and Welfare confirming employment and I swore before the counsel that I had worked there with the intent to lose my American citizenship. What else could I have done/could I now do to provide “evidence of commission of an expatriating act, voluntariness, or intent”? Affadavits? Photos? As a Canadian, I didn’t have to swear an oath to take the job!
How does one appeal such a decision?”
In 2017 I did appeal the decision through the consulate, appending (as many suggested) much more supporting evidence: an extended affidavit of mine; affidavits from friends and family who attested to my declared intentions at the time; copies of many US Immigration stamps on my Canadian passport showing that they had considered me Canadian every time I entered the US; copies of 2 oaths that I declared for my job with the Canadian Government – I was wrong when I thought that I hadn’t and the Canadian government was able to dig them up for me; and a copy of my Certificate of Birth Abroad emitted while I still lived in the US.
It is now a year later and no news from the consulate even though I periodically call to enquire.
Now I have my Spanish bank insisting that I sign a W-9 form (they obstinately reject the W-8 form outright for the US place of birth that they have on their records) or they will block my accounts with them.
Did I read this plot in a Kafka book or what?
@CA
I had my own application for a CLN backdated to 1993 rejected by the London Embassy earlier this month. So I renounced instead.
Backdated CLN would have been wonderful as I firmly believed I had lost US citizenship when I took on UK in 1993.
However, as I’ve decided that I’m not filling in a single form to the IRS, in the end the date is immaterial. I have my CLN, my banking rights are restored (investment accounts, fortunately it’s not that bad here in the UK), and I have an ESTA for my upcoming trip to the USA on my UK passport.
What I’m saying is, why not just go in and renounce and have it over with? If you decide (as I have done) that I’m not US property and therefore not going to do their form filling, then the date of your CLN is immaterial. I realise that this could jeopardise my entry to the USA in the future, but I’m willing to take that risk.
@Chicken Assembler
Some here on Brock have got results by calling the State Dept directly. Here is the link to the State dept Telephone numbers, I expect you should call the Dept of Canadian affairs, rather than the Spanish section but perhaps one of the administrators could direct you to the correct number?
https://www.state.gov/documents/organization/112065.pdf
Failing that you could just bite the bullet pay the fee , renounce and forget about tax filing.
Chicken Assembler says
Sorry for the re-post, but the Recent Comments link seems to be broken and pointing to a non-existent comment from 2016.
September 27, 2018 at 4:58 am
A follow-up from this post:
“Chicken Assembler says
May 24, 2016 at 11:40 am
I am an accidental American born in the US to Canadian parents who left when he was 3 years old never to return. No passport, no social security number, nada.
I just received a letter from the Consulate in Barcelona – where I submitted my documentation in July 2015 accrediting my relinquishment for having worked at Health and Welfare Canada in the late 1980′s – saying that “the Department was unable to approve my CLN” as I “failed to establish by a preponderance of the evidence, as required by INA Section 349(b), that you have expatriated yourself by the voluntary commission of an expatriating act with the intent to relinquish citizenship.”
I had a certificate from Health and Welfare confirming employment and I swore before the counsel that I had worked there with the intent to lose my American citizenship. What else could I have done/could I now do to provide “evidence of commission of an expatriating act, voluntariness, or intent”? Affadavits? Photos? As a Canadian, I didn’t have to swear an oath to take the job!
How does one appeal such a decision?”
In 2017 I did appeal the decision through the consulate, appending (as many suggested) much more supporting evidence: an extended affidavit of mine; affidavits from friends and family who attested to my declared intentions at the time; copies of many US Immigration stamps on my Canadian passport showing that they had considered me Canadian every time I entered the US; copies of 2 oaths that I declared for my job with the Canadian Government – I was wrong when I thought that I hadn’t and the Canadian government was able to dig them up for me; and a copy of my Certificate of Birth Abroad emitted while I still lived in the US.
It is now a year later and no news from the consulate even though I periodically call to enquire.
Now I have my Spanish bank insisting that I sign a W-9 form (they obstinately reject the W-8 form outright for the US place of birth that they have on their records) or they will block my accounts with them.
Did I read this plot in a Kafka book or what?
@BirdPerson Renouncing is a possibility, but really is my last alternative as it does not solve any potential future tax liability. I don’t underestimate the US’s ability to do the wrong thing and extend their extraterritorial reach in the future and have any foreign accounts blocked for perceived tax liabilities.
@Heidi Calling the DOS would be my next step, asking specifically for the enlightened one who signed the denial letter in 2016. I’ll need to get a case number from the consulate or I can imagine the response from the DOS.
Chicken Assembler:
“I don’t underestimate the US’s ability to do the wrong thing and extend their extraterritorial reach in the future and have any foreign accounts blocked for perceived tax liabilities.”
The Spanish bank is complying with local law, not US law. Spain, like the other EU Member States, requires its banks to identify US-born accountholders and get a W-9 or a copy of the CLN.
It seems odd that the bank would be threatening closure; according to the agreement with America, they should just be reporting the accounts as “recalcitrant.” Have you tried contacting your parliamentary representative and your M.E.P.?
@CA
I think you credit them (IRS)with too much power outside the USA.
They cannot collect taxes extraterritorially unless you give them the knowledge and power to do so. Trying for and extradition is expensive and not worth their while except for the very rich.
Please read link
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2016/11/01/dual-citizens-of-sweden-france-netherlands-denmark-canada-take-note-your-country-will-not-collect-for-the-u-s/
Alternatively, you could show the bank the documentation which proves that you have tried to get the CLN and can’t get the US to respond. The bank is supposed to accept a “reasonable explanation” for a customer not having a CLN.
@ Chicken Assembler,
Re:
That’s what I would do. When the consulate doesn’t reply to an enquiry or is blowing it off with useless or no information, definitely contact HQ in DC. DC has generally been very helpful in expediting things that have got lost in the cracks when consulates are blowing it off.
If there’s a phone number or specific sub-department mentioned on the letter you received in 2016, that’s great. If not, try a number from the DoS telephone directory. These are the departments involved with the issuance of CLNs and appeals. DoS Phone Directory, page OD-17.
Office of American Citizens Services (Consular Affairs/Overseas Citizen Services/American CitizensServices/Europe)
EAP Division Chief Brigid Weiller 10th Floor, SA-17202-485-6261
EUR Division Chief Rob Doughten 10th Floor, SA-17
202-485-6239
Office of Legal Affairs (Consular Affairs/OverseasCitizensServices/Legal)
Director Corrin Ferber 10th FL SA-17
202-485-6180
Supervisory Attorney William Fritzlen 10th FL SA-17
202-485-6098
Supervisory Attorney Chandni Kumar 10th FL SA-17
202-485-6041
@CA
Someone in Switzerland had their accounts frozen for the same reason. He challenged it legally and won, the account was unfrozen. As plaxy says your account should be reported as recalcitrant. I believe EU states that private banks can chose to close accounts, but state banks must accept customers for basic accounts.
Just a thought…Children born in the US to foreign diplomats aren’t infected with US citizenship………….
Re:
It’s a problem with the blog software. The link is pointing to page 53. Your comment is on page 43. To get to it, in the url bar at the top of the window, where it says “comment-page-53,” change that to comment-page-43.”
Also when this happens, to get to the most recent comments, delete everything after “consulate2/”.