Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
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@ Woofy
It’s been quite awhile since you dropped by (unless I missed you) … nice to see your smile-evoking name again. Did you notice we’ve all got different coloured icons now? WordPress went wonky one day and everything changed. Like you, we could never have made it through the process of obtaining a relinquishment for my husband if I hadn’t discovered Brock 5 years ago. I’ve given up on any reasonable resolution for myself (and I will NOT accept anything unreasonable) but at least my better half is free.
@maz57
“Divest yourself of any US assets if you still have any and get rid of US citizenship if you haven’t already.”
Getting rid of any US assets is a very good point to add to all this. And I agree, there is always a way forward.
Any advice on cleanly getting rid of my US assets? I have a few years to go (5) before the magic 59 1/2 age of no 10% extra penalty, and both my wife (lost the FATCA birth lottery) and I (GC, not properly disposed of, yet expired 15 years ago) have healthy IRAs with a major well known US financial firm (cannot change mutual fund investments, only convert to cash since we’re non-US resident). We have not lived in the USA since the very early 1990s. I’m not aware of any way to get my money out from under this, although, a deal is a deal, I ethically do feel I do owe the USG some tax upon withdrawal, as that was the deal I made with them and accepted. At least one of us seems to have ethics. They’re the ones going all snaky now.
@PierreD
The only advice I can give you is to study your own situation, investigate thoroughly and evaluate how much risk you can tolerate. My own personal experience in renouncing and leaving the US tax system did not include IRAs. I can tell you that the IRS is relentless in following anyone they can trace as “US citizen for tax purposes”. If they have any paper trail and they can follow you, they will. I brought some funds into Canada when I left the US. There was a paper trail and they claimed I owed the IRS an enormous amount of money. It turned out that I owed the IRS zero. This was after hiring a lawyer and much stress until the matter was settled.
Best wishes for your situation. Everyone’s is different. I hope someone responds with more specific information relevant to what you are going through. In my humble opinion, the best outcome is to be free of any US connection in financial matters.
I’m not sure you can say (except perhaps in a strict sense) that it isn’t illegal to not file form 8854 when there is a $10,000 penalty for not filing it.
See: https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expatriation-tax#significant
It’s not illegal if the IRS aren’t expecting it.
The $10,000 fine doesn’t come into existence until the IRS summon it up. It’s like the tree that falls in the forest and doesn’t make a sound if there’s no one to hear it.
@Stephen,
Thanks very much for your timeline data, which I’ll add to our tracking chart – and thanks again for your consulate report this summer. Glad things went smoothly and quickly for you, sounds like the Reykjavik staff do a good job.
@ OddlyNamed,
Thanks very much for your consulate report, which I’ll add to the directory. Thanks for providing so much detail. Really enjoyed reading it too – at one point, it brought back the sense of freedom and downright joy I had leaving the consulate (also Toronto) and I got a smile envisioning your “’rebellious’ celebratory act” 🙂
@tdott. Right you are; I stand corrected. I didn’t know about that $10,000 penalty threat. Of course, after you have removed yourself and your assets from US soil, the IRS would have one hell of a time collecting anything, taxes or penalties. And as Iota pointed out, if you never file anything, they wouldn’t even know about the Form 8854 “failure”.
In my particular case, expatriation was via relinquishment but I never applied for a CLN. No CLN=no IRS notification=the IRS doesn’t expect Form 8854=not likely to be penalized. I don’t lose sleep over any of this.
My consular experience:
I emailed Auckland NZ consulate last May, heard nothing for 8 days, so rang. I was sent the documents by email, had first phone interview in early June. I asked for a June appointment, but there weren’t any left, I choose August 17 for visit, as I was on holiday in July. A few days before my scheduled appointment, I got an email saying it needed to be rescheduled to Monday 15th. When I checked on changing airfares, it was going to cost an extra NZ$350. I rang and explained the extra cost, and Hayley, who I’d been dealing with said OK to come on 17th after all.
Very quick in and out, locker at security for handbag, handed paperwork over at one window, paid at another. Cashier said, ‘Oh, it’s the big one’. Called to interview room to sign 3 copies, and told it would be 6 to 8 weeks. When I replied, oh that’s quicker than some places, consul officer said they had good processes in place. I then asked if there were many people renouncing? and he said they have efficient processes at NZ consulate. Out in 15 minutes. Waiting room crowded, as I was leaving security area a young couple with a baby were going in. I sure hope not to register the baby. Staff all polite.
So, it’s 2 months on and no CLN yet, but hopefully not long now. I’ll update this thread when it arrives.
Thank you to all who have provided information and advice at Isaac Brock. I am now exploring the Loyalist branch of my family tree who settled in Ontario after the Revolutionary War.☺
@iota
a) There’s a difference between what’s illegal and what you can get away with 🙂
b) The State Department is supposed to send renunciation info to the IRS when a CLN is granted. Whether this happens is anyone’s guess (I suspect it would, because it’s an easy thing to do). Whether the IRS looks at the info if it does get to them is also anyone’s guess. And, finally, whether the IRS acts on the info (doing what????) if it does look at the info is also anyone’s guess. I don’t believe there have been reports of anyone renouncing, not filing 8854, and then being contacted by the IRS; however, like they say in the mutual fund industry “Past performance is not an indicator of future outcomes”.
Whether someone files or doesn’t file 8854 is no skin off my personal apple. I’d just like that they know the legalities and possible ramifications so that they can come to a decision that works for them.
Yes getting rid of US assets is a good point. That’s what I am in the process of doing.now. Not that I have much, just some mutual funds that was invested for me by a relative that is now passed away.
First I changed over my status to non resident alien. The broker wanted to see the state department papers, not just take my word I renounced. He wasn’t used to dealing with people that renounced at all. So once the CLN came, I faxed them over and they changed my status. Now for security reasons, I have to wait a few weeks before I can sell it’s a policy there when an account change takes place. I hope I don’t hear from the IRS after the sale. I am selling as a non resident alien so any reporting should be on the UK side.
Also for the purposes of the directory report, my CLN arrived on September 26th. Wasn’t sure I mentioned the date before.
For the form 8854, as much as I hate having to fill it out. I am going to fill it next year. but do we really need to fill out the last part, the asset break down if one is not a covered expatriate? I think yes they want it anyway.
@ UK Rose
“For the form 8854, as much as I hate having to fill it out. I am going to fill it next year. but do we really need to fill out the last part, the asset break down if one is not a covered expatriate? I think yes they want it anyway.”
I filled out the asset break down, part V on form 8854. As I had expatriated in 2014, the instructions stated that one must fill out part V if one expatriated in 2014. Since I wasn’t in the exit tax category, it was just an annoyance. Just check the form 8854 instructions when it comes time to end it with the IRS.
We have discussed 8854 part V at length. According to the instructions, you are supposed to fill it out. Note that they specifically state that you can use good faith estimates. Formal appraisals not required.
If I were not covered, I would fill in column (a) but not (b) or (c) I would write in “not applicable- non covered expatriate” for columns (b) and (c).
In other words, I would use column (a) as a balance sheet to show I didn’t owe anything or fill in the rest.
@tdott –
“a) There’s a difference between what’s illegal and what you can get away with :-)”
I’m not thinking of “what you can get away with” but “what is least risky.”
The IRS encourages USCs to feel that the only safe thing is to tell them everything. But in many cases, for a person living in a country with no mutual collection agreement (or no collection for citizens, as in Canada), it may be safer to tell them nothing they don’t already know.
It depends on circumstances, as always, but in a case where a person is feeling trapped, feeling they can’t renounce and get free for fear of becoming visible to the IRS and being labelled a “covered expatriate”, the safer course may be to renounce without mentioning it to the IRS.
“b) The State Department is supposed to send renunciation info to the IRS when a CLN is granted. Whether this happens is anyone’s guess (I suspect it would, because it’s an easy thing to do). “
As I understand it, they get copies of the CLNs, and they use these copies to compile the Quarterly List. Manually. Which is presumably why the list is so riddled with errors that you have to read it three times trying to figure out if your own name is on it. 🙂
In any case, there’s a big difference between the IRS knowing only that a person named Xxxxxxxx Xxxxxxx has renounced, and the IRS receiving a list of Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxx’s income and assets, complete with SSN, home address, and penalty-of-perjury jurat.
“Whether someone files or doesn’t file 8854 is no skin off my personal apple. I’d just like that they know the legalities and possible ramifications so that they can come to a decision that works for them.”
Absolutely. The goal is to get out from under, whichever way works.
Brief update. Silent but not absent. Maintaining competence in the weirdnesses and intricacies of expatriation in order to assist others as occasions arise. A few months back I sailed past the old SOL 3 year limit. Tempus fugit. Sauve qui peut and yo ho ho!
@usxcanada
Save that bottle of rum for the 6 yr fbar SOL.
Who knows how long it takes before the longitude 8854 is considered crossed?
@PatCanadian and @DoD
Thank you for the information. and @DoD thanks for the advice to just use column A. I had been getting paperwork for all my cost basis on everything. even posted away for some stuff.. So just to use column A makes things easier. and I suppose it is worth filling out just to prove to them that you aren’t covered. but yes an annoyance for sure.
I guess a good faith estimate and effort with this form should be good enough for them. Just so happy I didn’t have to wait long for my CLN and be in a position of filing the final forms without it.
Yes, I dug out a copy of my old form 8854. Only filled in column A and went by good faith estimate as well. Good luck with all those annoying forms UK Rose. Enjoy your freedom and may we never hear from the IRS.
re 8854 Part V:
I believe Phil Hodgen said to fill it all out even if you’re not covered. However, I have been unable to find where he said that.
FWIW, my tax guy said fill it all out (including columns ‘b’ and ‘c’) even though not covered.
Although it doesn’t particularly make sense to for uncovered folks to fill out ‘b’ and ‘c’, the instructions do not specify any exceptions for the need to fill out these columns.
I personally agree with tdott. I don’t want to give the IRS any excuse to reject my 8854 and will be filling out all three columns.
For 8854, I also took the conservative approach and filled out columns (b) and (c), even though I’m born dual and not covered. All were good faith estimates anyway.
Baffle them with bullshit. Don’t tell them anything they don’t already know or as my Irish friends would say ‘ tell them feckin nothin.’
My CLN and cancelled passport just arrived (31 October). However, the other two family members who renounced with me have not yet received theirs.
Timeline:
16 June 2016: I renounced in Sydney Australia with my husband and adult daughter.
11 Sept 2016: I sent an email to inquire about the CLNs as we had been told it would take only 6-8 weeks.
19 Sept 2016: I received a response saying they had mine and were waiting for the other two so they could mail them all together.
26 Oct 2016: I received an email from the consulate saying they still didn’t have the other two. I replied requesting that they send mine separately.
31 Oct 2016: Received CLN in the mail – it was stamped approved by DoS on 7 September.
I can’t imagine why the three files were separated.
My original consulate report is here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/comment-page-49/#comment-7600903
@Karen, Congratulations! And a fairly quick turnaround too.
No idea why some people in a family get their CLN before others, but it’s something that does seem to happen on a regular basis. Hopefully they’ll hear soon that theirs are at the embassy/consulate.