Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
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Best wishes always @Stephen. And Iceland? Adds a new interesting location for the compilation of consular reports!
Stephen, you are most likely the first here reporting their renunciation in and from Iceland. My congratulations are added to all others here on your innovative, easier-to-get_than-Toronto appointment when your decision was reached to go ahead. Wishing you a good visit there and safe journey back home. As always, thanks for all you do on behalf of all of us!
PS – was the other renunciant you met there from Iceland?
@ Stephen Kish
Congratulations! Renouncing in Iceland must have been quite an experience. Very adventurous way to avoid the long wait times. Thanks for all you have done with ADCS. I was wondering if and when you were going to renounce! Enjoy your new freedom.
Congratulations, Stephen! Wow, Iceland! Happy to hear it went well, with good communication on their part and a pretty short wait time for an appointment (though a sad state of affairs that one has to travel so far to avoid 10 month delays). Enjoy your trip – and the rest of your life as a free person! Thanks for your report – our first from Iceland – and thanks so much for all the time-consuming and important work you do in the fight against FATCA and CBT!
The nationalities of those who comprise a corporation are not relevant to the activities of the organization.Both the non-profits are registered Canadian corporations.
As far as the US is concerned, the corporation’s makeup only affects tax residence. There are no factors that make either corporation a “US person.”
So Stephen’s change of citizenship will have no effect on either organization, nor their activities.
Amazing. Molly goes from Calgary to Quebec City ( I hope she didn’t have to pay twice). And Steven goes from Toronto to Iceland! All because the USA makes it more difficult than anyone else. They are truly exceptional . Congratulations to both of you. My own 6 year journey is approaching the end game.
— Thanks everyone for the kind thoughts, but I’m not sure that the word “congratulations” can be appropriate: I complied with human rights-violating U.S. renunciation rules — and this leaves a bitter taste.
@DoD, may your path to the end run smoothly to your goal – and may you achieve relief.
“— Thanks everyone for the kind thoughts, but I’m not sure that the word “congratulations” can be appropriate: I complied with human rights-violating U.S. renunciation rules — and this leaves a bitter taste.”
Yes, but in my opinion it’s the better alternative is to renounce, if one can. In my case, any bitterness and anger was replaced eventually with a great sense of relief plus the ability to function again as a free agent in the universe.
The USA has made laws which violate our fundamental human rights. This is not our fault but the fault of the USA. The problem lies with them. Unfortunately Canadian and other governments are not standing up to this financial blackmail. We have hopefully removed ourselves from further harm by renouncing.
I don’t know if anybody used my idea of working at the polls on election day as a way of relinquishing, not renouncing, but it still requires a CLN, which is back-dated to the date of the relinquishing act. (Accepting employment with a foreign, i.e. non-USA, government is a relinquishing act, and the USA statute does not say that a one-day poll worker job doesn’t count.)
Please, may we take any further discussion about Stephen’s renunciation here:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2016/08/24/when-its-all-said-and-done-all-roads-lead-to-renunciation/
“The nationalities of those who comprise a corporation are not relevant to the activities of the organization.”
Context is everything, but … but … still …
Ms. Moon, let me introduce you to a blog whose participants have discussed people who have to leave corporations because of their nationality.
Congratulations, Stephen and enjoy your freedom from oppressive U.S. tax law.
@Tom Alciere,
My sister was told by the consul in Calgary that a 2-day job at a polling station didn’t count. Of course, the decisions are ultimately made by the DoS lawyers and the opinion of a consul isn’t the final word.
Hi Brockers,
This is my first post here and I hope this moniker hasn’t been taken, yet; I haven’t seen it before. I’ve been lurking here for a bit over a year, ever since I had my eyes forced open last summer. I was waiting to write anything until I had my CLN in hand, just in case I was not paranoid about how bad those bastards really want to screw over anyone that dares to leave their Homeland and see the real world outside.
Well, I have it. It came this morning per express. I’m happy it’s over (or is it?), because unlike most of the accounts I have read here, I dealt with nothing but aggressiveness and incompetence from the first contact to the letter enclosed with the CLN.
I applied for German citizenship in August 2015. Beginning of October, I received full citizenship without having to renounce first; apparently, the Germans decided that the fee was to high and at that time relinquishment was still free (sadly, not anymore by the time I had my appointment). On the very same day I signed my Einbürgerungsurkunde, I emailed the central address to apply for an appointment. I heard nothing back for 5 weeks, and then only after writing a second email to remind them I was still waiting for an answer. In both mails, I explicitly wrote that I had already relinquished by accepting German citizenship and required the appointment specifically to apply for a CLN to document this.
The email I finally got from the consulate in Frankfurt was a hastily slapped together copy-and-paste collection of text snippets from different sources (you could tell, because each one was in a different font/format). They just more or less listed off a number of documents I needed to scan and send in as PDF; a list of forms I had to fill out and return (in duplicate?) (including DS-4080), with (broken!) links to a server where I could fill them out online and save as PDF; a list of links to web pages about what a bad thing it is to renounce(?); A one-to-one copy of a web page about the “rules” and laws concerning losing U.S. citizenship, with everything specifically dealing with all relinquishment forms that are not renunciation cut out (funny though, one of the links that worked was to the original complete page); a matching name, email, and postal address (no phone). No consistent information on whether they wanted paper form by snail mail, or PDF by email; one paragraph said one thing, the other something else. As there was no number, I emailed back and asked some specific questions. I also tried calling the general number at the consulate, but they refused to put me through and said I should write the central appointment address, even though I had a name. After well over a week of no answer, I just sent the whole 9 yards (I used Google to find the form server) per snail mail (in duplicate!) and per email as PDFs.
About a week later (middle of November), I got an email (this time with a direct telephone number) telling me I needed to sign(?) the DS-4081 (Statement of Understanding). I called. The person (a civilian secretary, I think) was very aggressive and refused to acknowledge that the instructions she sent me said was to fill it out, but to send it unsigned, to be signed at the interview until she finally got my case folder out and looked at what she copied and pasted in the mail she sent. It was then that she saw my Einbürgerungsurkunde and realised I already had German citizenship. Then she got angry and went into a long loud barrage: “How did you get German citizenship without renouncing first? The Germans never do that! The State Department will never accept this! Blah, blah, blah”. I couldn’t get a word in edgewise. During the call, I think I was asked at least five times why I was giving up U.S. citizenship and she kept trying to convince me to keep it, seeing as the Germans already gave me citizenship and didn’t have to. The concepts of “intent to relinquish” and “under the condition” that I at least apply to get rid of my old citizenship were totally foreign to this person.
Anyhow, I managed to get an appointment for middle of January 2016.
Frankfurt is a four hour drive from where I live when the traffic is good, which it never is, so I and my wife set out very early on the day of my appointment and got there just little early (about 2hrs). It was -14°C that day so I didn’t wait around long and went to the gate to see if I could at least go in to get out of the cold. They not only let me in (of course the security check was a bit rougher than the airport, but not too bad), but said they would take me right then. That they let me earlier was the only nice part, but after the “interview” I realized it was a mistake.
From the get-go, the “interview” was more of a cross between a third-degree interrogation, a test of wit, and a high power sales pitch than an interview. All the paperwork was prepared for a renouncement and the consular officer constantly tried to convince that I did not relinquish and must do a renouncement. Then there was the attempt to scare me with “it won’t be accepted and you will have to pay again”. Then there was the constant “why are you doing this?”. She even tried (at least three times) dropping the comment “lots of people are renouncing now for financial reasons” out of the blue to bait a reaction (Reed Amendment?). Because I was early (and the first appointment of the day), the “interviewer” took her precious time grilling me about an hour and a half), questioning every document, including whether the effective date of German citizenship was the date of the approval of the application or the day I signed it and if I knew the difference (an attempt to convince me I didn’t relinquish because “I was already, or wasn’t yet at the exact minute I thought I officially became German”). The entire time, I was in a cubicle that was open to the hallway where my wife and dozens of young American families were waiting with their newborns to register them. I think my wife was crying silently because they were being so hard on me.
It was hard, but somehow I managed to hold my anger in not say too much or anything stupid (short answers and just answer what was actually asked, as asked) or argue with her and it eventually ended (with her complaining that it took so long (don’t look at me, I would have been fine “Hi, where do I sign? goodbye.”). Then they kept all the paperwork and left me with two copies of a letter confirming I had “renounced”, effective that day, according to 349(a)(5), subject to approval (one English, one German) as (only) “proof” I had been there. After having gone through all that discussion, I was not going to let this pass, so I told her the letter was wrong, that should state that I applied for a CLN based on my relinquishment in October according to 349(a)(1). Well that finally got her to accept that I was not backing down and got her helper (the one from the phone call) to modify it real quick, so I “walked” (my wife had to guide me, because I was shell-shocked and shaking) out of that evil place with a letter confirming that I signed an “oath of relinquishment” according to 349(a)(1), effective that day, on approval, (do these people have any idea at all what they are doing?).
At least, the letter was good enough for my bank to leave me alone (did I mention I got my 30 day notice about two days after the phone call for my appointment and was late). I got the impression at my bank (Postbank) would have been happy for any piece of official-looking paper that would get them off the hook and let them keep me as a customer.
They gave me several different estimates on how long it would take to actually get the CLN, starting with 3-6 months in the email confirming the appointment, to 5-7 before the interview, to 7-9 months as I was leaving.
So I waited patiently. If it took two years, I was not going to check up, contact with those “people” was the last thing I wanted after that hell. And now, after just shy of eight months, I got my envelope back.
I opened it and got the next dose of incompetence. The letter stated:
“Enclosed is the Certificate of Loss Nationality of the United States, which was approved by the Department of State on August 1, 2016 under Section 349(a)(5)… The Loss of Nationality was effective January xx, 2016. The date you took the oath of renunciation.”
=> Shock. I never filled out DS-4080 or took an oath of renunciation. However, when I looked at the CLN, it at least was correct and showed I relinquished according to 349(a)(1) in October 2015. Note, however, that it took almost a month and a half AFTER approval to get to me.
Now, if anyone thinks, after all that, I am going to bring myself into contact with the IRS (known for their competence, leniency and over-all good-will character), think again.
This was my Consular experience. I’m not very active in social media or blogging (or whatever), so I may not be posting much, but eventually, I will get around to letting you all know about who I am an how I ended up here from there. I have been reading everything on this site for so long now, I feel I know most of the regulars. I want to thank you all for this site and the good work you all do helping people like me retain their sanity. Just knowing that there is someone else out there who can confirm that this is real and you are not alone or crazy helped me through.
P.S. the angry civil servant on the phone had a first name with a specifically German spelling and spoke English with a German accent and German fluently with a dialect you don’t pick up unless you have actually lived in Germany for a very long time (if not from childhood). For this reason, I would think she is originally a German national. I would assume that to work behind the “glass wall” at the consulate would mean she would have to have U.S. citizenship. Unless she is a dual citizen, she would have had to given up her German citizenship to become American (automatic, the Germans don’t ask, if they find out you’ve taken on a non-EU citizenship they send you a letter saying that they’ve cancel your German citizenship and if you want it back you have naturalize like everyone else. And they actively look for this). So my explanation for her anger is that she is just jealous, because she locked herself up (probably unknowingly at the time) and here I am making myself free.
@UnforgivenToo
Congratulations!
I have heard that Frankfurt is hostile. Supposedly Stockholm, Paris and London too.
Dont assume too much about the employee. Some still see America as their “Befreier” and converts of any color can be particularly intense in their ideology.
@Polly,
You’re probably right, I’ve been here long enough to see how a lot of Germans worship everything American (maybe not so much now as 25 years ago, but it’s still there).
I wanted to add one more thing: before anyone contemplating relinquishing (or renouncing, for that matter) in Frankfurt get scared and starts to thinking twice about it. In the end it was all bark and no bite. I stuck to my guns and held the line that I relinquished and there wasn’t a thing they could do to deny me my human right to end my U.S. citizenship how I wanted to.
Unforgiven,
If you are interested in chatting with me about your Consulate experience, please send me an email at: Stephen.Kish.Chair@adcs-adsc.ca
Your very unpleasant interview in Frankfurt was the opposite of mine in Reykjavik, which was friendly, sympathetic, and service-professional.
Good night! and congratulations on receiving your CLN, UnforgivenToo. I am so glad you found this site, did your research here and that it helped you with knowledge to get through the ordeal of your relinquishment of US citizenship.
Appreciated very much also is your expressing thanks for the help and support you received here. We are a bunch of rag-tag volunteers working in our spare time for exactly that purpose, as you say — helping people like you (and me and others) retain their sanity; letting you and others know that there is someone else out there who can confirm that this is real and we are not alone or crazy. You are now closer to the end of it all (if there shall really be an end) than where you started at the beginning, your own OMG moment. I am so happy for you and your wife (who had to listen to all the ordeal you went through in Frankfurt). Breath deeply and get on with your life together.
We are so grateful for your report — each one helps someone else!
@stephen
Thanks for the offer, if you could use more infomation to possibly pick out a detail or two that could help someone else, then count me in. I like the idea of doing it privately.
@calgary411
Thank you, I am breathing deep and enjoying life, more than ever before. In the mean time I started to stop and smell the flowers and not place as much stress on getting ahead (money-wise). Even changed jobs and finally picked up a hobby (whitewater kayaking: good against stress). For many years now I was torn between whether I belonged here or there as I began noticing that I identified less and less with the place I was born and raised. After the fact, I feel comfortable with the fact that my home is here and there has always scared me (even as I was a child) and I really wish I had done this years ago, pre-OMG. I am finally at home and not just living here.
@ UnforgivenToo
My stomach was in knots reading about your consulate experience but I’m so happy you now have the peace you deserved to have had all along but were denied. My husband loves the hobby you chose. He’s been an enthusiast for nearly 40 years. Anyway, congratulations from both of us. 🙂
Unforgiven Too. Thanks for acknowledging the help from IBS. You are smart to avoid the Infernal Revenue Soc. Let us know how it goes. Cheers.
@Stephen
I sent you a couple emails. One with a little about my background and another with some of the “information” I got from the consulate and the kind of argumentation that went on during the “interview”. Feel free to use or post anything from the second mail that has had my real name taken out.
Excuse the typos: big thumbs, small tablet.
@unfogiventoo
Congratulations on your hard earned freedom.
For others considering release, the Consulates in Bern and Luxembourg are user friendly.