Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
If clicking on a link brought you to the wrong page on the comment thread, click here to go to the current page.
Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
If clicking on a link brought you to the wrong page on the comment thread, click here to go to the current page.
@Schlampazius
Congratulations. I renounced 2012 in Frankfurt and at the time was told it would take 4 weeks to receive my CLN. In the end it took 4 months. 3 to 6 months at the present time sounds realistic.
Sounds like a pain. Is this because Germany is a place where you have to renounce first before getting your German citizenship, and so there is no other passport you could use?
I renounced 9 October 2015 in Amsterdam. Phone, iPad etc not allowed, so I left them in a locker at the Rijksmuseum 5 minutes walk away. Not necessary to buy a ticket to the museum to use the lockers. I went to the Consulate carrying nothing except a cardboard file containing my documents and passports, and a small handbag containing wallet, specs, comb and a packet tissue. The young men at security allowed me to keep hold of the file, the wallet and the glasses but solemnly took into protective custody the comb and the packet of tissues.
DS-4079 was not required, only DS-4080 and DS-4081 (plus both passports)
I did not provide a written reason for renouncing, but did casually comment verbally that I wanted to simplify my life and didn’t really need two citizenships.
I brought the money in cash (USD) lest card transaction might fail anti-fraud auto-detection, as I’ve found this can happen despite giving bank prior warning.
All went smoothly – was told it would be 3 -6 months to get the CLN. Some initial uncertainty whether they would be able to post the CLN to me in the UK, but when I promptly offered to pre-pay the costs, my offer was declined. I am going to go back and collect it in person if need be.
On the whole, a very rewarding experience — much the most enjoyable visit to a US Consulate I’ve ever had, in over 50 years of living abroad. Also a very enjoyable few days in Amsterdam. The remodelled Rijksmuseum is brilliant!
@iota
Congratulations. I’d be curious to know why you selected Amsterdam if you live in the UK. Was it because they offered a shorter wait time in comparison to other locations and allowed you to avoid the fee increase? If so, would be curious what wait times were at other locations.
I did think Amsterdam might have shorter wait times than London, but mainly I chose it because the list of requirements on the Amsterdam website was brief and unobjectionable, and also I thought it would be a good opportunity to see the museum. 🙂
I wasn’t trying to beat the price rise, as I didn’t really have much likelihood of relinquishing. I did want to get a renunciation date in 2015 so that I could hope to be done and dusted before my NS&I index-linked certificates mature next spring. I’m concerned that as a US Person I might not be allowed to renew for a further term. Want to be able to tick that box No.
Forgot to say – I didn’t try anywhere else.
Timeline:
10 Sep – I emailed requesting appointment and attaching scans
14 Sep – received holding email
28 Sep – I emailed to enquire as to status of request – 9 Oct offered and accepted
Just realised I wrote the wrong date in my initial post above – renunciation date was actually 9 October. Can’t seem to edit the post.
@ foo
The fact that Germany requires you to renounce before naturalizing has nothing to do with it. You could have a passport from any country (other than US) and you will not be able to enter the US with it until the dept. of state considers you a non US citizen.
After relinquishing in May at the consulate in Munich,Germany my CLN arrived yesterday. I want to say thank you to all those who answered my questions back in Feb/March 2015 (especially Pacifica). I can share my relinquishment story, but I have since learned that Munich does not actually handle renunciations/relinquishments anymore, but that one must now got to Frankfurt. Good luck and strong nerves to all those who are still in the process of expatriating.
Fledermaus
Congratulations Fledermaus!
Good luck to anyone trying to get onto the consulate’s site to check for info there. I’ve been trying and Internet Explorer just keeps falling over eventually after telling me it’s stopped working time and time again. Must be having some sort of problem in Germany.
Congratulations, Fledermaus. Glad information you got from this site, and all the data Pacifica maintains helped in your successful relinquishment and arrival of your own CLN. Yay!
One more cut-back, a barrier for persons who were closer to Munich thaWe n Frankfurt, similar to the ever increasing renunciation and relinquishment fees. Thanks for that information. Hope we don’t find that the next common occurrence for slow-down in expatriations.
Congratulations on your CLN, Fledermaus!
I’ll add your data to the CLN time-chart – btw, seems like Europe’s once relatively fast delivery time is slowing down, as the 3 Muskateers, also in Germany, had a 5 or 6 month wait recently.
If you’d like to share your story, please do. Even though Munich is no longer handling renunciations/relinquishments, your report may well be useful for other Germans and people elsewhere as well.
I understand that Frankfurt is now the only consulate in all of Germany doing expatriations. That’s a bummer in terms of people having to travel and also that as demand goes up, they cut back on service (and raise the fee).
Glad you got in in time to use your nearest consulate and before they started charging for relinquishments 🙂
pacifica777
Here is my relinquishment story. Although Munich does not handle relinquishments/renunciations and relinquishing also now costs a hefty fee I thought it might be helpful.
After 24 years of living in Germany and being married to a German, I finally made the decision to become a German citizen. As I could not keep my US citizenship and become German, I researched into how to give up my US citizenship. It was only at this point that I learned about the nightmare of Fatca and the high fee to renounce US citizenship (in Jan of 2015 the fee was 2,350 dollars). Luckily I was allowed to first naturalize as a German citizen and then relinquish my US citizenship, which at the beginning of 2015 could still be done for free. The process to become a German citizen was quick and efficient. I applied at the end of Jan. 2015 and was naturalized on the 23rd of February
My initial contact with the US consulate in Munich was an e-mail I sent the day I naturalized on the 23rd of February. One day later I received a phone call from a German staff member. He spoke to me for about 15 minutes clarifying that I wanted to relinquish and the difference between renouncing and relinquishing. He was quite surprised that I wanted to relinquish and told me it was quite unusual. He told me he would send me the proper forms and information by registered mail. This conversation was completely in German. I was not given a name or a contact telephone number at this point. A week later (this was the beginning of March) I received a registered letter with the 4079 Form (Information for determining the possible loss of US Citizenship), the Statement of Understanding Concerning the consequences and Ramifications of Renunciation (4081) and information about renouncing and possible expatriating acts printed out from the State Department’s website. In the letter I was also given a phone number to call if I had any questions. I filled the forms in (the 4079 I was able to find online and filled it out). I sent everything back by registered mail including a personal statement in which outlined my expatriating act and the oaths I took to become German and the fact that the decision was voluntary and with the intention to relinquish my US citizenship. A few days after sending the letter in I received a phone call (always from the same case worker). He told me that they had received the letter and that he needed to get copies of my German and American passports which I sent in by e-mail (at this point I learned his name and got an e-mail address and phone number). I was told that I would need to have a short telephone counseling session with the vice-consul and when this was completed I would need to come to the consulate, do an interview, sign the 4079 and the 4081 and hand in my US passport. I was given the time frame of 3 to 4 weeks until I would be contacted (this was the middle of March). After five weeks came and went with no call from the consulate, I called up and left a message on the answering machine of the case worker who promptly called back that afternoon. He reassured me that they had not forgotten me. At the end of April I got a call to set up a counseling session with the vice-consul who called me as promised 2 days later. The call lasted about 8 minutes. He basically asked all the same questions that are on the 4079. Also, Was I born in the US? Are my parents American. Are my parents German? What are my ties to Germany? Have I traveled or voted since expatriating. I was told at the end of the conversation that the case worker would be in touch again. A week later (end of April) my case worker called and arranged an appointment at the consulate at the beginning of May.
Everyone at the consulate was very friendly and helpful. There were two people ahead of me renouncing. They both paid their 2,200 Euros in cash. They both had their interviews and had to swear their oaths before it was my turn. What really is unfortunate is that I could hear every word that was spoken as there is thick bullet-proof glass between the consulate staff and the visitors of the consulate. I know that they are worried about terrorism, but when you enter the consulate you are basically stripped of everything. In any case I could hear how nervous the guy who was renouncing was. He was very honest and told them his main motivation for renouncing was the tax situation.
I was the last person they had to process that day, so the waiting room was empty. The case worker went through all the paperwork with me. I was told I would receive a letter in German to give to the German officials that my relinquishment case was being processed and that I had handed in my passport (I asked for such a letter). The vice-consul was friendly. He basically asked me about my reason for becoming German. I told him about my wish to vote and be a full member of the society I was living in. He asked about the exact wording of the oaths I took to become German (I had received a copy of the written oath I took on the day of naturalization and I gave this to them). I was told to bring the original copy of my naturalization papers (“Einbürgerungsurkunde”), but in the end I did not have to show it. He asked about my social ties to the US (mother and siblings) and how often I return to visit (every 1 to 2 years usually). Basically he went through the 4079 again. He asked once again if my parents were American (they are) or are they dual nationals (they aren’t).
Finally I was asked to sign the 4079. As the whole relinquishment process is something that he had very little experience with, he asked me to sign the document at the wrong place. Luckily, he caught his mistake and luckily I had my own copy of all the forms with me so that I was able to supply the necessary page (unsigned) and then I signed at the right place at the end of Part II. I also signed the 4081 and handed in my passport.
I was told the CLN should take about 8 weeks to process, but that in my case it could take a little longer. I asked whether I would be able to travel to the US on my German passport and I was told no and that I would need an American travel document. I asked if this would in any way affect the relinquishment process and he said it might and that it would be best not to travel. They told me they would notify me when the CLN arrived.
My CLN (together with my revoked passport) arrived yesterday on the 14th of November 2015. I waited approximately 6 months.
Fledermaus
I think I mentioned before that I did not think one had to get rid of a US passport before becoming german. Wasn’t this the case here?
@Polly
Germans do not allow non-EU citizens to keep their former citizenship. In fact, you must always first renounce and then you are allowed to naturalize as a German. I was allowed as an exception to first naturalize (after signing a form I would relinquish my US citizenship) and then relinquish my US citizenship.
@Fledermaus
Kind of a contradiction in itself….
@Polly
Sorry, I don’t get what you don’t understand?
My renouncing story
I had been thinking about renouncing for several years. My main reasons were the paperwork, potential future tax implications, and my lack of connection to the states. I have been living in Vancouver, BC for 13 years and always feel like an outsider when I visit friends and family in the States.
In March 2015, I went to an info session given by Moody’s Gartner and they scared the sh*t out of me with horror stories of people who misfiled or renounced incorrectly. I was certain I would hire them or some other lawyers until I learned that they cost $20,000 and the “cheap” lawyers were charging between $5-$10,000. I couldn’t afford that. So, I did my own research and reached out to one of my old high school friends who happens to work at the US State Department. What I learned from him was that the State Department doesn’t care about your tax situation and that if you want to renounce and seem to have fairly mature reasons for doing so (eg- *not* “America sux”, or “I hate taxes”), then they will have no problems with your renunciation.
So, I filled out the paperwork on my own and sent it to the Vancouver embassy in April. I heard nothing until mid-August, when I received a call from the Vancouver Consulate asking if I could go in the next day for the interview. I was counting on having the interview late in 2015 or early 2016 after reading stories from Isaac Brock and other places. I hadn’t prepared my paperwork, so I asked to postpone. Instead, I went in on September 9.
On the day of renouncing, I arrived early, with all my documents, and without any electronic devices, as recommended. All people I came in contact with were polite, efficient, and professional. I was in and out within an hour. The Consular was friendly and took my statement. When the process was over, I mentioned that it all seemed easier than I expected. His response was that I seemed to be an organized and mature person, renouncing for the right reasons. I left the process feeling pleased. However, I was a bit annoyed when I received a call the next day from the Consular who apologized and asked me to return to the embassy in order to sign one extra document that he neglected to get me sign the previous day. That weekend, I celebrated with my friends and never felt happier to be a Canadian.
The next Monday with terrible irony, I received a letter from the IRS saying that they disputed some of my claims. They said that I actually owe the IRS just over $1000. I read the letter three times to let it sink in and started shaking since since I thought this meant that I was now a covered expatriate. I was relieved to find that my accountants determined that this letter was a mistake and they corrected the problem. I still received more than a few grey hairs. Two months later, I received the COLN.
I am soon going to start on Form 8854, and I don’t expect this will cause any significant problems since I am up to date on my taxes. Thanks to the weak Canadian dollar, I am well below the $2 million mark.
To summarize my suggestions to have a smooth and happy experience:
1. Know why you are renouncing and have a reasonable story for it
2. If your situation is simple, then your renunciation will be simple
3. Lawyers cost a lot of money. I’m sure they can be useful, but not everyone needs one
4. The internet is your friend. Most relevant information can be found on this site and others.
5. The State department is not out to get you. On the contrary, they want the process to go smoothly for you.
6. Come to your renunciation meeting with all your documents prepared
@ Andrew Eisenberg
Thank you for sharing your experience and CONGRATULATIONS! Your sound advice will aid others who will be heading down the renunciation road. We’ve had some reports about difficulties setting up an appointment in Vancouver but it seems everything went pretty well for you. That should reassure everyone that the Vancouver consulate is still functioning fairly well.
Andrew. One other tidbit from your story. Avoid high priced accountants and lawyers -especially Moody’s
@EmBee, I too had heard that Vancouver had long wait times, which is why I was so surprised that I was able to get in so quickly. I guess something has changed.
@Duke, yes, but I don’t want to say it too strongly. I imagine that there are situations where this is warranted. Eg- you haven’t filed your US taxes in years, or you have some extenuating circumstances. So, yes, for “normal” people who are up to date, you shouldn’t need to hire external help IMO.
Hello all. First of all, I want to thank everyone on this board for their incredible support and information over the past couple of years. I am so grateful to the many people here at Isaac Brock who have so selflessly and generously offered me their time, direction and suggestions. You are amazing. Your help has been the one bright light in this experience of dealing with my U.S. citizenship.
I have been absent from this blog for quite some time, as I needed to take a break from all the stress and anxiety that my U.S. citizenship has caused me. In any event, my relinquishment story is an unusual one. My appointment to apply for a back-dated relinquishment was in July 2014 in Calgary. My relinquishment was based on employment with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC), beginning in 1999. I’m a dual, born in the U.S. to Canadian parents, moved back to Canada when I was five and in the more than 50 years since, have only been back to the U.S. a few times. I’ve never held a U.S. passport, never worked or lived in the U.S., never owned property there, never voted there, etc.
The vice consul made my relinquishment appointment a very unpleasant experience. He was patronizing, combative and told me flat-out that he was recommending my application be denied, based on the fact that he didn’t consider the CBC to be a crown corporation. Fast forward to May 2015, almost a year later. I received an email from the Calgary consulate telling me that a CLN had been sent to me “in error”, and could I please return it. They stated that the DoS was very close to making a decision in my case, but they would need the CLN back. A few days later, I received a CLN stamped approved November 2014, six months earlier. A friend of mine who is a lawyer advised me to keep the CLN until I heard further from the consulate. In September, the consulate contacted me again, asking for the CLN back. This time I contacted the consulate and asked that they explain to me exactly how my CLN had been approved in error. The woman I spoke to, who was very nice, could not answer that, other than to say, she believed it was “placed on the wrong pile” and mistakenly approved. She told me that my CLN was useless without back-up documentation and would not be helpful if I presented it to the IRS or at the border. I asked her if there was any decision on my case and she said she believed there was, but they wouldn’t release it without the CLN returned. I decided to send the CLN back, knowing that they had likely denied my application. And I was right. About three weeks later, I received a letter from the DoS, saying that they determined the CBC was a “hybrid entity” that combined elements of both public and private sectors and as such, “would not place those in their employ within the purview of INA 349(a)(4).”
This whole process, which took almost 15 months, was brutal and now I’m wondering if it’s worth appealing. I’m curious to hear what others think. The huge hike in the renunciation fee is just more salt in the wound. I think the hardest emotion to deal with around all of this is the anger. Thank you in advance for your thoughts.
Holy sh*t! I’m so sorry. That is extremely unfair and disconcerting. The only thing left to do is to join the Canadian military. 🙂
All kidding aside, CBC *is* a crown corporation from what I understand. There is even a page here discussing it: http://www.appointments-nominations.gc.ca/prflOrg.asp?OrgID=CBC&lang=eng
IANAL, but I can’t understand how they could consider CBC *not* a crown corporation. People more informed than me can perhaps describe if there is any way to dispute the claim.
Molly, I’m so sorry that the last several months have been a waste of time and are soon to be a complete waste of money, because the US is being such dicks.
It’s beyond infuriating (to the point where upon hearing your story, I’d like to punch a wall – but won’t because I saw what doing something stupid like that did to a friend of mine), knowing that you wouldn’t need to consider claiming a past relinquishment if the US wasn’t being such dicks.
Nor now facing having to pay more money to renounce US citizenship if the US wasn’t being such dicks.
I still don’t know what’s in it for the US to be such dicks, do you?
Molly,
It is so good to hear from you and know you are OK (well, not really, a big part of that OK). What a horrible experience you have had with DOS regarding ridding yourself of acquired US citizenship, just as Gwen’s and Ginny’s — birth abroad to Canadian parents citizenship that you had no say in / claim to as an adult Canadian. This was totally without your consent and is totally non-meaningful, except for those who deem you a US resident for tax purposes.
I have no expertise to give regarding whether or not it is worth your appeal and continuation of the torture in time and stress (those LCU’s JustMe described – our life credit units) for you. I do, though, share your anger that you have no choice in that acquired US citizenship. I’ll continue to say over and over again, that surely if there is citizenship-based taxation in the US or any other country, there should go with that a CLAIM to US citizenship as an adult and with *requisite mental capacity* for *Accidental Americans* like you, like Gwen, like Ginny, like my son — and the many, many others who don’t yet realize how trapped they are into the consequences and the costs to free themselves. There should only be an OPT-IN to US citizenship for *Accidental Americans*, never an OPT-OUT. If no OPT-IN, the *opportunity to become a US citizen* should be null & void. Why is there no common sense in the US or protection of ALL Canadians in Canada?
I hope you can get credible Canadian advice re CBC being a Crown Corporation / hybrid entity and how that compares with others that qualify for claims of relinquishment.
Thanks for the update, as troubling as it is what you have experienced.
@Bubbles re: “Molly, I’m so sorry that the last several months have been a waste of time and are soon to be a complete waste of money, because the US is being such dicks.
It’s beyond infuriating (to the point where upon hearing your story, I’d like to punch a wall – but won’t because I saw what doing something stupid like that did to a friend of mine), knowing that you wouldn’t need to consider claiming a past relinquishment if the US wasn’t being such dicks.
Nor now facing having to pay more money to renounce US citizenship if the US wasn’t being such dicks. I still don’t know what’s in it for the US to be such dicks, do you? ”
LMFAO! Now that was worth coming out of lurkdom to read! hahaha!!! Did you know that your grammar was a bit off – the US is being a DICK singular, not DICKS plural. LOL.