Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
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@pacifica777 The consulate visit reports I read here and the in the relinquishment/renunciation thread made all the difference for me in deciding how I would handle the entire experience and feeling as confident as one can in the face of power that is sometimes wielded arbitrarily. I’m only to happy to pass it forward and will be making another donation to the FATCA legal battle too.
@Queenston The detail I didn’t include was that they were wanding everyone. After I loaded my stuff in a tray and passed through the detector I had long wait for my stuff. When the tray was handed OVER the top of the x-ray unit I realized the guard on the other side was manually inspecting everything.
@ RLee
My husband had nothing in his pockets and nothing in his hand except his plastic folder holding his papers. I even made him tie his pants up with string (so no belt to remove, no strip tease needed). I believe he passed through the insecurity checkpoint unscathed. I was on the outside waiting and probably more anxious than he was. I think everyone should try to have someone on the outside (even if you have to pay a young relative to come along) just to hold things for your return … and to make sure you do return.
@EmBee In the days before my appointment I certainly wished I would have someone making that long drive with me and holding my cell phone and electronic car key while I went inside. Unfortunately, that wasn’t possible. That’s why it was particularly nice to meet another Brocker to pass the time with in the waiting area. Fortunately the process was not emotionally trying or triggering for me but I had no assurance of that in advance.
@schubert1975 “Under absolutely no circumstances should anyone, who believes they relinquished their USC by commiting any of the 7 actions whereby one does that (allegedly of their free will and with the intent of relinquishing USC), retain, request, or use a US passport”
I don’t agree. The fact that you are in a no man’s land between the date you go to the consulate for your relinquishment and the date that the CLN is approved (which could be months and theoretically could be years) means you have ample reason to keep the passport in case you have to go to the US for some reason.
Now that the State Dept has finally made the change last month to acknowledge that this no man’s land existed, things have changed. But keeping your U.S. passport even though you believed you lost your citizenship was logical under the circumstances before this recent change.
I received my CLN this past Saturday, so here is an update for the Consulate Report Directory.
Since the consulate in Osaka had said at my 11 September 2014 appointment that the CLN would take “about a month or a little longer”, I had expected to receive it by the end of the year. In late December and then again in late January I emailed to ask if there was any news, but was told that they were still waiting to hear back from Washington DC. In late February, since my deadline for registered my “Loss of Foreign Nationality” within 2 years of my naturalization to Japan was approaching, I emailed the consulate to ask if they could provide me with a letter stating that I had applied for the CLN but that it was still being processed. They sent me a document to that effect 2 days later by express mail. Finally, on 17 March 2015 (at 9 PM; they must have been working late!) the consulate emailed me to say that they had been notified that the CLN had been approved on 16 March, and that they would send me the documents within a week or so. The CLN, cancelled passport, etc. arrived by registered mail on 21 March. Total time from consulate appointment to CLN receipt was a bit over 6 months. I was a bit surprised that they attached the CLN, together with some contact information for possible appeal, to my Japanese family register (the document submitted to prove my naturalization to Japan) and its translation with a permanent paper fastener, so now my CLN is a set of 6 pages. The CLN itself cannot be detached without damaging it and making it appear that it has been altered by separating it from the other pages. No matter I guess, since after I submit a copy of the CLN and a translation to the Japanese authorities, a new section entitled “Loss of Foreign Nationality” will be added to my family register, and as long as I live in Japan, that will be the only legally applicable document and it is likely that I will never have need for the CLN again.
Tokyo Rose,
Congratulations and thanks for your report for the Consulate Report Directory. Very interesting — you’re wise not to detach those pages.
Crossing posting a comment I just made on another thread: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/11/07/from-japan-t-new-brock-commenter-who-is-both-pleased-and-horrified-that-he-has-something-to-add-to-this-discussion/comment-page-3/#comment-5847584. Let me know if I can have Victoria contact you. Thanks.
@calgary411
I had neve read that others’ CLN were attached to supporting documents, but since my Japanese family register is the sole evidence submitted to verify my naturalization to Japan as my expatriating act I guess it makes sense. But a 6-page CLN would be rather unwieldy, and a copy of just the CLN page seems rather incomplete. Anyways, as I said, once it is on my Japanese family register, I’m likely through with it.
I’m sorry, but I don’t feel like I can participate on that other thread. It seems solely in reference to FATCA and I’m afraid the info presented is in stark contrast to my own experience, so stark that I feel any discussion would merely devolve into argument.
I had supporting documents both attached to and referenced on page 1 of my CLN in the following manner: “that attached to and made a part of this certificate are the following documents or copies thereof:….”
They attached proof of employment. The stapling is just regular – no fancy legal looking stuff. Also stapled were my form DS 4079 and Canadian citizenship documents and birth certificate, but they do not appear to be referenced on the CLN. CLN was received Feb this year.
@ KCam
I hadn’t realized that this attachment thing was common. On mine, rather than a standard staple, they use a ring-like fastener that would be difficult to remove without a special tool. I looked around the web to see if I could find out what it is called. Doubtless anyone working at an office supply company, or for that matter maybe a legal office could say what it is.
I received my CLN after 2 months. I renounced in Montreal.
@TokyoRose,
How was your experience different? I don’t think Japan T (or I) would be argumentative about it. Any experiences you could share would be a valuable contribution to the knowledge base.
@pacifica777 – for the consulate report:
On April 1, 2015 I received the following message in response to my request for a relinquishment appointment at the American Embassy in Ottawa:
“Please follow the above instructions and re-send your completed forms in beginning mid-Sept, 2015 and Oct 2015. We are not booking apts at this time.”
@ProudCanadian,
I am so sorry to hear that they are delaying you. This is unconscionable. How is it possible for them to refuse to OFFER apts. from the time you submitted up until September and October? They are stonewalling by not taking care of the growing backlog. No doubt also happy that it will decrease and skew the numbers shown in the Federal Register for those quarters.
Thank you for sharing that update.
Proud Canadian, I’d be contacting my MP, asking for an explanation from the US ambassador.
@ Proud Canadian,
I’m sorry to hear you’ve run into such delay. Thanks for sharing this info, which I’ll add to the Consulate Report Directory.
So Ottawa has a wait time of approx 6 months just to book an appointment — and who knows how long the wait for the actual appointment will be.
The lengths they’re going to obstruct people from renouncing or from documenting their prior relinquishment is disgusting.
@ Tokyo Rose and Marge,
Belated congratulations on getting your CLNs! I didn’t see your posts last week. Thanks for sharing your news – I’ll add it to the Directory and CLN tracking chart.
@Proud Canadian
Just another example of the many fine consular services expats enjoy (and that justify them being taxed).
I totally understand that this is not an option for many (most?) would-be renouncers, but a while back a Brocker had a vacation in San Diego with the purpose of renouncing at the US Consulate in Tijuana since it had no (or next to no) waiting time. IIRC all went smoothly in Tijuana.
For someone in a hurry and is willing to combine a San Diego vacation with renouncing, this is a nice work-around. (Again, I realize it’s not an option for many, if not most, people), so YMMV.
Hi ladies and gents! I’m hoping you can help me. I apologize in advance for the long post that follows. I’m just trying to get some sense of where I should go… if we should be looking at actually filing the taxes and the FBAR (don’t want to, can’t really afford to, don’t want to burden ourselves with that lifetime requirement and most of all, I’m not comfortable with giving MY personal information to a foreign government just because my dear husband’s dad thought he was doing hubs a favour…etc), if relinquishing is an option, or if we should hold out hope for Obama’s policy in the FY2016 budget to come to fruition.
BTW, in case it wasn’t obvious, Isabelle Brock is a pseudonym to protect the innocent. 😉
Here we go!
My husband, let’s call him Nate, is a dual Canadian/US citizen. Born in Canada in 1984, his American dad got him a Certificate of birth abroad and a SSN, He’s never lived in the States. They did have a cottage in the Adirondacks growing up but I doubt that would be enough to be considered him living there.
As a teen, he served was a Cadet with St. John Ambulance, which required a weekly oath to the Queen. He continued working with SJA until a few years ago, when he had to quit due to lack of time.
He applied to the Royal Military College, but didn’t get in so attended another university. (I mention this in case it demonstrated intent to serve in the Canadian military).
In university, he had the opportunity to work at a summer camp in the States, which was probably the only time in his life he used his US birth certificate to cross over, in order to facilitate the paperwork for the camp. He also registered with the selective service around that time.
Since then, Nate has worked for our municipal government (as a camp counselor) and is now employed as a teacher (which is arguably a subdivision of the provincial government… if you consider go up the chain from the school –> to the board –> to the Ministry of Education.
What do you think our best options would be? DH is looking ahead and he’s worried about the implications for our kids.
Thanks in advance for any guidance!
@ Isabelle Brock
Welcome! Good news for the kids, at least. Your husband didn’t live in the USA the requisite number of years to pass on U.S. citizenship to them.
Here’s my highly unqualified take on your situation. Your husband’s Canadian birth certificate says “Born in Canada” and he has not entangled himself with the IRS so far so he could try to fly under the radar, especially if no further visits to the USA are a viable option. I don’t think he qualifies for a relinquishment (SJA and intent but no attendance at a military college would not likely do the trick). That leaves renunciation which means the big fee and filing obligations to get rid of tax status as well as the citizenship status. Being dual from birth however would mean automatically NO exit tax. Not much guidance, I’m afraid, but stay tuned because other Brockers are better at this than I am and hopefully they will chime in.
I.B. DH doesn’t need to worry about your children.
As Em says, Nate doesn’t need to do any reporting either unless he chooses to.
The only caveat is that if ever he is asked (when opening an investment account for example) if he is a ‘US person” he should be prepared to , in the words of Nancy Reagan, ‘just say no’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIcnBccjgMw
I see no reason for him to avoid traveling south. Relinquishment is unlikely to be successful. Another choice is to pay $2350 and renounce and then either file 5 yrs or not. If not he then becomes a “covered expatriate’. So what?
@Portland PLC, @EmBee, @Isabelle Brock
IMO, Nate could relinquish based on government employment as long as he did nothing “American” since starting to work for the city or provincial government. It sounds like he started as a camp counselor AFTER he did anything American. And if that employment doesn’t work, the teacher certainly would be accepted.
Isabelle Brock, can you confirm that Nate didn’t do anything like travel on a US passport or apply for a US passport or vote in the US since taking those jobs?
@ Kathy
Others have managed it with municipal/provincial employment so you might be right. I just think as we get deeper into this mess, they may put a stricter interpretation on “government employment” and then if anyone goes that route they’ll have to ask themselves, “Am I feeling lucky today?” It’s really a very tough decision. It’s amazing and appalling the number of nooks and crannies one has to explore.
Thanks for the responses, everyone! You are giving me hope 🙂
I didn’t think the kids would be affected, so that is a relief. I know that he is concerned for any potential inheritance from my father-in-law, although I wonder if he could bequeath directly to our mini-Brocks and we would be okay that way.
I think he’s already just saying no. He knows that on paper, he is dual, but in his own words, he is Canadian – full-stop – which is why we had a bit of a blow-up when he registered for Selective Service.
I can confirm that he does not have a US passport, and the only time he crossed over as an American was when he was crossing over to work at the summer camp in New Hampshire. At the time, he used his US birth certificate and Ontario driver’s licence; I don’t think the passport requirement was in place yet.
Since that time, I can confirm that he has not done anything “American”. When we have traveled south of the border (as we do for shopping, and for our recent cruise to Bermuda) he crossed over (and back) on his Canadian (and only) passport. He’s never paid taxes in the States, and he’s never voted in a US election, which is one of the few times I am glad he didn’t listen to me 😉 (His rationale is that he was not really benefitting from anything that the States had to offer him so he felt he had no right to contribute his opinion. He’s voted in every Canadian election he’s been eligible to vote in.
Another potential sticking point: I noted in some of the reports that some Brockers were asked if they commited the acts with the intent of relinquishing citizenship. Being the upstanding, honest guy that Nate is, he said, “I can’t say that I took on the employment with the City / with the Board with the intent of relinquishing my citizenship, but I think I can Jesuitize my way around it.” In other words, he won’t lie, but he thinks he can word it in a way that he will imply the right answer – which worries me. He said he has been considering it for a while now (since before we were married in 2009) as it has been a burden rather the open door that my FIL was hoping for.
If we could swing relinquishment based on employment with the government (he was a camp counsellor for our city and as a teacher, so provincial) that would be ideal but if we have to do the renunciation, we will suck it up and save up for it.
I’m actually terrified to file taxes to renounce. With the teaching market, he’s been making under $25k/year, but I’m worried about our joint accounts, the sale of our first home (capital gains?) and all that jazz.
You’ve all been fantastic. Thanks for indulging me and for your help!
Hi Isabelle Brock
Your husband might be able unearth his repressed memories of intentionally taking that municipal employment for the purposes of relinquishing his US citizenship. He should try.