Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
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Congratulations on receiving your CLN, Mark Johnson!
Thanks for your timeline info. I’ll add it to the CLN Time Chart. Thanks again for the Directory report of your visit in October. It will be a pleasure to add “CLN received 2015.02” at the end!
Congrats KCam and Mark Johnson!
KCam, I also relinquished based on municipal government employment and received my CLN in December 2014. I went to the Toronto consulate and at that time (June 2014), nobody there was certain that anything other than a position at the FEDERAL level would qualify to relinquish under that part of the code! I knew that others here had had provincial level postions and were successful. It still amazes me that the consulates know so little about their own laws.
I was also dual at birth, but the position I held did not require an oath. They sent my information in with no recommendation one way or the other.
I know that WhatIAm is still waiting and that may be due to not being able to get an official letter of employment for the city where he worked. Who knows?!
Anyway, welcome to the CLN club!
SUBTLE CHANGE IN RETAINING US PASSPORT
I don’t know if anyone saw this, but seems there was a subtle update to the State Dept handbook on retaining your US passport (if you have one) while you are waiting for the relinquishment to be approved. Now it seems you can keep the US passport while you are waiting for Washington to process the relinquishment application.
See pg 15 of this document e(4):
If the intended expatriate advises the post that he or she needs the U.S.
passport immediately because
of intended travel to the United States, the
consular officer should return the
passport to the individual for such travel
only until the loss of nationality case is approved. When post receives the
approved Certificate of Loss of Nationality for the individual, post should
inform the individual to appear in person at post to return
the passport and
receive the CLN.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120546.pdf
that state dept section seems was just updated on 24 Feb 2015
@ antifatca
Thanks for finding that new information. So they are using the CLN as “collateral” to make sure you make another trip to the consulate to hand in your US passport in person. I wonder if there’s an appointment needed for that too? This is not a great deal for anyone who has a long journey to get to a consulate. And who would know for certain whether or not they will be making a trip to the USA in the next 6 to 12 months? I think the interim letter was a better solution. It worked for my husband anyway. He thought he might have to take a trip to the USA while in CLN wait mode (ill family member) but it turned out he didn’t. The letter would have got him across the border if he had needed to go there.
Why not just turn in the passport and save yourself a trip? Use your Canadian passport if travel to the U.S. is necessary.
@ woofy
You still might need to explain to the border guardistas why you don’t have a US passport or a CLN … yet. That’s why an interim letter is helpful — it’s official looking. Although I think as soon as you complete the Big R appointment the information is conveyed to the border computers that a CLN is pending. Not totally sure about that but certainly once the CLN is issued the border computers are fed the information (so they say).
@embee
i don’t see them letting you retain the US passport (temporarily) as negative. Because as long as they haven’t issued you the CLN, you may still be a US citizen so you may as well keep the passport.
@ antifatca
It’s not negative for those who love consulate visits but for many (like my husband — a total of 6 hours of driving for a consulate visit) it is not convenient. The new protocol will be positive for others though.
When I renounced in Vancouver they took my US passport, as they have to cancel it, so there were about 3 months when I didn’t have a CLN and no US passport (but a Canadian one branded with an American birthplace). The canceled passport came back in the same letter as the CLN. I don’t think I traveled to the States during that time, but if you do, you can always bring your renunciation receipt, and the border agents may have that info on their computer.
For anyone interested — I’ve just returned from a Moodys Gartner Calgary presentation on Renunciation of US Citizenship. In the presentation, it was mentioned there that the wait time for Toronto expatriation appointments is now into February of next year; wait time for appointments in Calgary is into June and July of this year. It was also noted that Toronto has eight appointments per week (2 a day M-Th) and, although Calgary had been doing 12 appointments a week, that will change (or has already changed?) to, as well, eight appointments a week. For two US Consulates / Embassies in Canada, there is the ability to have a lawyer accompany you to your expatriation meeting — in Calgary and Quebec City.
There was a footnote at the end of the session regarding the US Budget *proposal* for those *born dual*, indicating that it came out of left field — not anticipated by their firm. It was noted that the last Budget in the U.S. was passed in 1996, also a year that the Executive was Democrat, with Senate and House of Representatives both controlled by Republicans, as now. No possible reasoning suggested for the *proposal* but that, as we might agree, someone has been listening.
Wow Calgary. That’s really interesting information. The fee hike and now this…..they’re desperate to suppress those renunciation numbers.
@ calgary411
Thanks for entering the condor’s nest and bringing back some valuable information. That means that just between 2 consulates in Canada there are about 1000 renunciations per year. So no way Hoz-eh those State Dept. numbers are correct. May as well toss the name & shame into a dustbin.
Calgary and EmBee:
Do we know for sure that these time slots are for renunciations/relinquishments only? If so, that’s 800 per year at just these 2 consulates, if they do 50 weeks a year. Wow!
PS: Also mentioned was that the US Consulates, in this country as I assume in others, are closed on both Canadian and US holidays.
Yes, PierreD, that was in reference to expatriation appointments so renunciations and relinquishments — not referring to (as far as the way I heard it) appointments for other US business.
I am very conflicted about whether to ask to retain my U.S. passport when I renounce on Monday. If/when I travel to the U.S. after renouncing my citizenship I REALLY don’t want to fill in the citizen of what country blank on the customs and immigration form to say I’m a citizen of the U.S. The many ways they circumscribe my right to expatriate really offend me. I’d much prefer to show a Canadian passport and just have some documentary proof that I have already renounced (even if they have not deigned to recognize that fact) but now that they’ve got a provision to allow me to keep my passport I expect officials at the border will be quarrelsome about any other solution.
@RLee, you could try asking for a letter/document that says you’ve renounced and are waiting for your CLN instead. I know some people here have gotten such a document from the embassy/consulate when they asked. Also as you’re renouncing you will have your receipt for the $2,350 fee that you can show at the border.
I don’t like the idea of having people retain their US passports after renouncing/relinquishing at all. It smells like a trap to me. It’s putting those people in a very precarious legal situation and I wouldn’t recommend anyone using it. Except in the eyes of the US state dept., these people are no longer US citizens, and they really shouldn’t do anything to jeopardize that NON- “US person” status. Especially in the case of a pending relinquishment it seems very dangerous.
@notamused, there’s no reason at all for anyone renouncing to retain their US passport. Once they’ve done the Oath/Statement thing they are no longer Americans from that moment whether Washington’s given its approval yet or not. Relinquishments are another matter as they do require Washington’s final yes/no, but even so I think a simple letter/document detailing the info on the relinquishment should be enough for the border control. No need to hang on to the passport until Washington gets its act together months later.
@Medea Fleecestealer
That’s correct. BTW I was commenting on antifatca’s post above, which I hadn’t seen previously.
Under absolutely no circumstances should anyone, who believes they relinquished their USC by committing any of the 7 actions whereby one does that (allegedly of their free will and with the intent of relinquishing USC), retain, request, or use a US passport. To do so would refute your claim to having relinquished USC, and to do so after having sworn and signed an oath before a US consular officer that you had committed an action with the intent of relinquishing your USC, might even put you in the legal position of having sworn a false statement and being prosecuted for perjury.
Don’t even think of using a US passport in any of these circumstances. If in any doubt on this, talk to a knowledgeable lawyer. Or go up the thread and read/re-read Calgary411’s horrible experience in this regard.
In the unlikely event a US border guard won’t let you cross the border on your Canadian or other non-US passport even after you’ve sworn the relevant oath at your US consular interview, just don’t cross the damn border until you have your CLN.
And by the way, my wife was told during her interview for her decades-ago-relinquishment CLN, by a US vice-consul, that as soon as the vice-consul has completed the input re your interview into State Department’s computer network (which he or she usually does right during your interview or at the end of it), US border officials have access to that file on their computers. They damn well know, or can find out very quickly on their computers if you suggest politely they check, whether you’ve filed for a CLN and have sworn either an oath of renunciation or an oath that you willingly and intuitionally committed a relinquishing act, and there is absolutely no reason in such a case for the border guard to think of you as a US citizen or someone who should be presenting a US passport at the border.
This is true AFAIK whether your oath was a renunciation or for some other form of relinquishment.
I’m reposting to this thread as requested:
DONE! I renounced at the Consulate in Toronto this afternoon (March 9, 2015). (In a comment last November I detailed my experience in getting the appointment.) Everything went very smoothly today. Consulate staff seemed very comfortable and familiar with the process (as well they should be by now). They were courteous and matter of fact about providing the service. When I arrived at the consulate about 10 minutes before the appointed time 3 or 4 people were already in the line up for American Citizen services. (It turned out they had other business there). The gentleman who arrived a couple of minutes after me turned out to be another Brocker, which made passing the time in the waiting area between the steps of the process much more pleasant for me. A large sign outside the building displayed a long list of things you are not allowed to bring in with you. I was glad I had woken up this morning with the realization that the “smart key” for my van was an electronic device and I had to figure out how to lock that part of it in the van along with my cellphone. At 2:00 pm the security guard began waving us in. Immediately inside the door you go through airport style security and then are literally ushered through to the elevator to the third floor. Step 1: Coming off the elevator I had a brief wait for my turn to approach Window A where I turned in all the documents I had gathered and prepared in advance. I was asked one or two questions just confirming information that I had provided on the documents — that I do use my birth name (although while I was married I did use my husband’s surname) and that I acquired Canadian citizenship through naturalization. She then gave me a number and explained I would be called for an “interview”. Step 2: The wait was not long but 3 or 4 numbers higher than mine were called before mine so at a moment when the cashier was not busy, I asked and she confirmed that was not unusual. I was then called to Window D where a different person greeted me and then said “So you are here to request determination of possible loss of citizenship” (reading off the title on form DS-4079). I stated firmly, “I am here to renounce my citizenship”. We acknowledged that the form had two purposes and he proceeded. He paged through the six page form rhetorically asking one or two questions about the facts such as my place of birth and then said “so you want to go ahead with this” to which I firmly answered “yes”. He passed all my paper work to me along with a form to give the cashier that noted the fee I was to pay. He said I would be called back to his window in about 45 minutes to swear my oath. Step 3: I took the paperwork down to the cashier and passed all of it through to her. I had brought American cash, so waited while she counted it and then made a stroke with a marker on each bill to confirm it was not counterfeit. She printed two receipts which she added to the pile of paperwork telling me I would get my receipt when I made my oath. Step 4: I don’t think it was 45 minutes later I was called back to Window D before the other Brocker who had been ahead of me at each step so far. The same gentleman I had spoken with before put me under oath, had me sign DS-4081 (re: understanding the consequences and ramifications of renunciation), and had me repeat the oath phrase by phrase after him and sign DS-4080. He then said “we are told to say you will receive your CLN in four to six months. Recently they have been coming in sooner than that but I’m saying four to six months.” I asked about travel to the U.S. before the CLN comes in. He said just to use my Canadian passport and explain the situation. I decided to go with that (and carry the receipt for the renunciation fee).
I don’t know if it was because I seemed so fully prepared and firm in my resolve but there was no questioning of why I was doing it, no discussion of the gravity of my decision, no set speech or anything of the like. It was about an hour from the time on my number ticket until the time I was done — about 90 minutes from the time of my appointment.
There were four of us there at some stage of the renunciation process. The other two had walked directly up to the security guard (separately) just before 2:00 and were each waved in without being asked to join the queue (or show ID as far as I could tell), so I wondered if they might be returning. The first of them had paperwork with her but seemed to have problems with more than one aspect — she had quite a bit more conversation at Step 2 than I did but I think she did end up completing the process. The other one was filling out the forms in the waiting room and then brought them back to Window A. I don’t think he did complete the process. So there may have been 4 appointments for loss of citizenship this afternoon at the Toronto consulate.
A note about the paperwork: As with the tax forms, you find yourself trying to fit a square peg into a round hole filling out the Request for Determination of Possible Loss of United States Citizenship when what you intend to do is renounce. Having read here of someone having their CLN denied because their intent on this form was misinterpreted, I stated very clearly in the answer to question 7 ON PAGE ONE, that I was completing the form to initiate my renunciation. (I wanted them to have that in mind as they read the rest of the questionnaire). Again in my answer to question 18b on page 4, I commented “I made my decision to renounce my U.S. citizenship more recently” (when I took Canadian citizenship in 1993 my intent was to be a dual citizen and I had documented that when I next renewed my U.S. passport).
FYI: The email from the consulate says they will accept Canadian cash — it does not mention they use an exchange rate that is significantly less favourable than the current unfavourable bank rate. I was happy to have U.S. cash and happy to have arranged that in advance with my bank so they could get in large bills — waiting for her to count and check 24 bills was long enough. They do also accept credit cards but having read here on Brock of the credit card processing being down when they were at the consulate — which could happen anywhere and since the consulate is over 100 miles from my home, I brought U.S. cash.
Thanks so much to everyone who has contributed information about their experience here. It’s been incredibly helpful. I will post again when I receive my CLN.
@ RLee,
Thanks for posting to this thread too.
Congratulations! I’m glad everything went smoothly with your renunciation. Thanks very much for your very detailed report! It’s really helpful for others and takes some of the “mystery” out of dealing with the unfamiliar situation of renouncing.
Congratulations, RLee, on completing your renunciation at the Toronto consulate.
In your detailed description of the procedure, you said “you go through airport style security”. At the Calgary consulate, the metal detector is much more sensitive than the security clearance my husband and I have ever gone through at any airport. At our appointment to document our relinquishment I got through OK after emptying out my purse and discarding a few small items like lip balm, and replacing my metal cane for a plastic one they keep there for going through the metal detector (mine was returned as soon as I had gone through) but when my husband went through the alarm kept going off. He emptied his pockets again, they examined him and passed the wand over him several times and couldn’t find anything that should have set off the detector. Finally we remembered that the replacement heart valve he’d received in his second valve replacement surgery over 10 years ago has a very small amount of metal attached to the pig valve to hold it in his heart securely. The security guard was very polite during the entire event, accepted our explanation, didn’t make my husband get his card identifying the valve out of his wallet, and let him go through, to the relief of everyone waiting in line. The valve has never set off alarms at airports, so the consulate’s metal detector is obviously much more sensitive than “airport security”. Anyone going to a consulate should be prepared to explain any metal that has been implanted anywhere in their body.
Once we finally got through security, our relinquishment appointments each went quite smoothly. I got my CLN about 9 months after the appointment, and my husband got his two weeks later. i hope yours comes when you’re expecting it, or earlier.