Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
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Our consulate report from May 2014 in Vancouver.:
We received our appointment for a back-dated relinquishment (1970’s) approximately 3 months after we requested it. The embassy called us to make the appointment. We had heard via the Isaac Brock and John Richardson and another lawyer hired by a friend in our same situation that we should have certain other documents and it was intensely important that we had all the documentation we had. What we gathered was:
1. A full copy of our citizenship files from Canadian Immigration Services (“application for a search of citizenship records” from Access for Information, from Immigration Canada) which took about 6 weeks to arrive. They were photocopies of the originals which are now on microfiche. We should have asked if we could get the copies notarized, as the interviewer was not happy that the copies were “merely photocopies”. I argued that these were all that were sent to us, that the originals did not exist. They were necessary because our immigration cards gave the year of citizenship but not the day and month so we couldn’t prove the very day of our citizenship. Our oaths of allegiance to the Queen and Canada were included, two for each of us with different dates, which were very vital. A friend of ours was kept from completing her 70’s application until she could get a specific proof of the exact date of becoming a citizen. Her argument that it was the oath of allegiance that was the expatriating act was denied, whereas when I used that argument, they said OK.
2. New birth certificates obtained from the states in which we were born. It was not expensive but was vital, the interviewer saying that the hospital birth certificates, though pretty and fancy with our baby prints on them were NOT acceptable.
3. A marriage certificate from the government, not from a church. A new one would be a good idea but we had one that we had obtained for getting our Canadian passports so ours was fairly new.
4. Two copies each of our DS-4079 and Loss of Nationality Questionnaire with the proper expiration date on them, also important. We conferred with John Richardson on how to fill out all the forms
for a consulting fee which was very reasonable. That consultation was vital to us.
5. Our Driver’s Licenses and unnecessary copies thereof.
6. Our Canadian passports and unnecessary copies thereof. We had never obtained US passports, feeling that we have not been US citizens since the 70’s when we became Canadian citizens.
7. Our admittance letter from the Embassy
8. Prepaid Xpresspost envelopes for the CLNs’ return to us.
Security was tight at the Embassy, but that didn’t surprise us. We went in individually so we could hold each others’ phones, etc. instead of needing to have them stored at Quiznos across the street from the embassy. We were put through the line quickly, one at a time while the other waited, quite quickly when we showed them our appointment letters. We were guided through the various doors and the elevator and other doors and had airport type security as we went in.
We were seated in a waiting room and then sent to the “cashier” which worried me, as I wasn’t intending to spend anything on the relinquishment, but the cashier was essentially the greeter who sent us to the proper window to be interviewed.
At the window for the first interviewer, I saw that our file was in front of him and an unfinished CLN was on top of the papers in the file so they did know why I was there and were prepared to most probably grant me the CLN. Not having a proper proof of the exact day of my becoming a citizen was enough of a problem that the CLN had to be rewritten to have the cause of the relinquishment be the oath instead of a certificate of Canadian citizenship. It took quite a while to go through all the papers, after which I was sent to the vice-consul who questioned me as to why we had come to Canada, a question that surprised me a bit but for which I was prepared. He seemed astounded that we had never had US passports or Nexus cards. We haven’t considered ourselves US Persons since the 70’s. He was firm but friendly enough and stamped all the proper papers. He showed me the completed CLN and said I should receive the approved copy in 3 to 6 months. My husband’s passage through the process was much quicker, as they had gone over all the paperwork for me already. Both CLN’s were granted, and we received the official documents in 6 1/2 months.
I would say that we were very competently handled with friendly people all around, no hassles at all. Lunch, after all this, was certainly delicious!
Garm. Thank you.
When you contemplate the utter foolishness of this, the mind boggles. You were documenting that you had given up US citizenship. How could it possibly matter who issued your birth cert.
How could the exact date when you became Canadian make the slightest difference. These are fearful, petty bureaucrats exercising their power.
Chris Hitchens said it before, ” one of the beginnings of emancipation is to laugh at authority”
Well done!
We did surely giggle a lot when the CLNs came in, I must admit. It’s not the first time we had problems with bureaucracy.
@ Garm,
Congratulations! That’s neat your CLNs arrived on Brock’s anniversary. Thanks very much for your detailed report, which I’ll add to the directory and the timeline chart.
@ Duke,
Proof of the exact date the person acquires citizenship is important when the relinquishing act is naturalisation because it proves that the US citizenship terminated the date the person says it did, so I can see where that could cause problems.
Some of the other documents sound really irrelevant though (and not required at many other consulates). There’s a fair bit of inconsistency between consulates, and Vancouver is legendary, if not bizarro, about documents in general – the weirdest case there is Tiger had to get FOUR different copies of her birth certificate (in one, they couldn’t read her father’s middle name clearly because the paper was creased).
@ CanadianGirl403,
Congratulations on your CLN! And congratulations on presenting a good clear case to Washington as well! I’m sure the waiting period was really stressful due to the consul’s negative recommendation, so I’m really happy you can get on with your life now!
Thanks, I am so very excited and relieved it is over. Yes I was a duel citizen born in the US to Canadian parents taken back to Canada where I have lived all my life. They back dated me to March 26/01 when I started work with the federal government. Heartsick you remember correctly, the vise consul in Calgary was brutal and I felt like I was in an interrogation with him. He kept telling me if I thought I relinquished when I was 21 then I could not have thought I relinquished also when I got my government job!. He kept reminding me I was under oath and when I took my government job did I think I was taking it to relinquish. My story posted on May 28/14 after my appointment. I spent a couple of weeks putting together a letter after the fact with all their legislation and reasons why I should be granted a back dated CLN, mailed it to Washington and the US ambassador in Ottawa, who sent a letter back saying they did not have anything to do with that area, not sure if he also forwarded my stuff to Washington or Calgary to be attached to my request. Your site is the reason I could do all this thank you all again.
Mediator could you please ask Molly to contract me by email. I your request back in August from her to me must have gone to my junk mail and I did not see it thanks.
Sorry about the typos on the last one should have read it before posting.
Canadiangirl.403,
I did send Molly another email asking her to contact you. I hope you two will be able to touch base. (I’m in Calgary as well.)
Molly — if you read this comment, get in touch with me to get in touch with CanadianGirl.403. I sent you an email as well. Hope you are well! Thanks.
Anybody have trouble with their CLN in the XpressPost envelope being delivered? The tracking status says it was sent back to the depot (after being out for delivery) for address verification. I was wondering if this was because the From address is the same as the To address (as requested by the consulate).
I’ve called Canada Post and they’ve now verified my address and they were pretty sure that it was early enough in the day that it should get out for delivery today. I’m just on pins and needles waiting.
I left a note on my door asking them to leave it between the doors. I’m wondering if they even deliver it to the house or put it in the community boxes with the regular mail.
Mine came in the community mail box.
@ Canadiangirl.403
Thanks. The tracking status says it’s back out for delivery again. Hopefully it will be delivered successfully today. This waiting is killing me. I’m just keeping my fingers crossed that it’s all correct and there are no clerical errors on it.
@Kathy
Haha, I was just so excited to get mine I never even looked to make sure there were no clerical errors I read it but as soon as I read that it was my CLN with the date I think the rest did not matter then, I just checked now though. 🙂 It is all perfect!.
I am sure yours will be too. Congratulations again.
It’s here, it’s here, it’s here. Sound the trumpets!
I will post my consulate report tomorrow, but suffice it to say as of Jan 23, 1995 I ceased to be a US citizen under INA 349 (a) (4) (A) by starting employment at the City of Kitchener.
I promised myself that if my relinquishment went through I would donate the renunciation fee amount that I wouldn’t have to pay to the legal challenge in Canada. It was only $450 at that time. I’ll still do that, but I will also look at my budget in the New Year and see if I can come closer to the current fee of $2,350. It only seems right.
Again, thank you all so much for your help and support.
The one thing that rings through my head right now is:
http://youtu.be/BRI-A3vakVg
My name is Kathy and I AM CANADIAN!
@Kathy,
Phew, it’s over. You’re free. I am _so_ happy for you!
@ Kathy
Congratulations! The delivery was a bit worrisome there for awhile but the main thing is now you hold a CLN in your hand. Of course you are Canadian and it is rebarbative that a foreign country forced you to prove it. BTW, I was going to say “irritating” but then I found a much better synonym, “rebarbative”. It’s my new word for the day.
@ Canadiangirl.403
Belated congratulations to you! Your experience is why they created the word “tenacious”. Good for you for standing your ground because now you hold a CLN in your hand too.
I’ve made my donation (+ a little extra) as I had promised myself and even tried out the Greedy Giver for a small portion (I got tired of seeing that $0 total donations).
And as promised, here are the details of my case:
I was born in 1959 in the US to Canadian parents. My Canadian birth abroad was registered in 1961 and my family moved back to Canada in 1962 where I have lived ever since. I have never had a US passport, earned US income, filed US taxes or voted in any US election. I have always considered myself solely Canadian.
When I first learned of FATCA in early 2014, I contacted the US consulate in Toronto for more information. It was difficult getting a straight answer to my questions. I felt I was in a weird version of “Who’s on first.”
When my Canadian birth and was registered and my family moved back to Canada, Canada did not allow dual citizenship and the US did not recognize it. I wanted to know from the consulate whether that was a loss of US citizenship or not. Answer: The law changed.
OK, so I work for a municipal government. That causes loss of citizenship, right? Answer: You can only relinquish once.
So you’re saying that lost my US citizenship in 1962? Answer: The law changed.
After a very frustrating few rounds of this, I decided to try to get my relinquishment act of 1962 documented. I applied for an appointment and filled out the forms. My appointment was on Mar 20 2014 at the Toronto consulate. (I also had a “Who’s on first” email version of my question about back dated CLNs)
I won’t go into the details about the security and such as it’s already been documented by many others. As soon as I got to the window and passed over my unsigned documents, Canadian passport and hospital birth certificate, they informed me that only a state issued birth certificate is acceptable. I looked back at the information they emailed me and that fact was included, but I missed it. I missed the part about the XpressPost envelope too!
So the rest of the appointment was only done “as a courtesy” since I couldn’t prove that I was a US citizen in their eyes. During that appointment, it became clear that I could not base a past relinquishment on my registration of Canadian birth abroad, so I just packed up my stuff and left.
After more investigation (and with MUCH help from Isaac Brock Society), it became clear that I would be able to get a past relinquishment documented based on my government employment. The only problem was that it wasn’t clear whether they consider municipal level government “a political subdivision” of the government of Canada. There were even some bad experiences documented from other consulates about recommended denials for those with dual citizenship at birth when basing a relinquishment on government employment.
I got my letter of employment (Jan 1995), applied for and received a state issued birth certificate, got an XpressPost envelope, refilled all the forms with government employment as the basis of relinquishment and even got a signed letter from the City Clerk explaining how the municipal level of government is a “a political subdivision” of the government of Canada. I applied for a new appointment and emailed the forms. My new appointment was set for June 12, 2014.
In Toronto in June, I talked to a new person at the consulate. He was rather young and I’m guessing a little inexperienced as he had to wait for his boss to come back to the office before he would make a decision. Even after he conferred with his boss, they were not sure whether anything other than federal government employment was acceptable. I was given the choice of coming back at another time after they do some research, renounce or send my case Washington with no recommendation. As I knew of relinquishments which had gone through based on provincial and even hospital employment, I felt somewhat confident about my case and asked that it be sent to Washington as is.
During the interview, I was asked “you took the job with the intention to relinquish your citizenship?” I just replied that it obviously wasn’t the reason I took the job (it was for a paycheque), but that I had intended to lose my US citizenship.
I was also asked about my previous appointment as the details were on file. I told him about the confusion about two relinquishing acts and that with my lack of the proper birth certificate, it was a moot point anyway. I never signed any of the previous documents, so I was only a little concerned about this.
NOTE: On the DS-4079, there is a question about swearing an oath which has been part of a large discussion at IBS:
11. (c) Did you take an oath, affirmation, declaration or allegiance in connection with the job?
I answered No and added in the comment section that no oath was necessary as I was already a Canadian citizen.
As they didn’t give my case a clear cut recommendation, I decided to just forget about it as much as I could (ha, ha, ha!). They told me it would likely take 6-9 months to get a response. I wasn’t expecting to hear anything until well into spring 2015, so I was very surprised to hear a voicemail in Dec 2014 from the consulate saying that my CLN had arrived and they wanted to double-check my mailing address.
When I called the consulate to confirm my address, they had already mailed it. It was the correct address, so there was no concern there. I had to wait a few days for it to arrive (XpressPost did not meet the guaranteed delivery date) and I was anxiously tracking my envelope until it was delivered (Dec 17, 2014).
My CLN has Jan 23 1995 as the date I relinquished my US citizenship, which is the date I started my job. The CLN was received almost six months to the day from my second appointment. All in all, it was a very tense and worrisome procedure. I could have saved myself a bunch of worry and stress if I had taken some more time to find out all the facts before jumping into that first appointment.
I think I’m the first confirmed case on IBS of receiving a CLN based on INA 349 (a) (4) (A) at the municipal level of government:
INA 349 (a) (4) (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state;
I do want to express my sincere thanks to all the folks at IBS for all your help and advice. There is no way I could have done this without you.
And to all of those still deciding what to do and those in the midst of the process – the best of luck to you!
Kathy — so glad that your claim to relinquishment as one born dual was successful. This will go a long way to encouraging others that were born dual and have had a government job that they too should claim their relinquishment. Thanks for your report here as each report we have will help someone else along their way — someone who may have no idea of any of this yet!
Thanks for your donations — every one helps. Yours is a tribute to what you learned from others here.
Mods . Can this be added to the Toronto database so I can’t lose it? I have a friend in a similar position. Happy holidays to all.
@ Kathy,
Congratulations on your CLN! And doubly so because you really had to stand your ground on the municipal employment and deal with several other hassles! I’m really happy that your research and determination resulted in success. And as you are the first Brocker to report receiving a CLN received based on municipal employment, this is great news and information that will help other municipal employees too.
Thanks very much for your report! I’ll add it to the Consulate Report Directory, and I’ll make reference to this development regarding municipal employment in the “Born Dual and Relinquishing by Government Employment” post as well.
@ Duke,
Absolutely. It will be in the next edition of the Consulate Report Directory, due out after Christmas.
@ All,
Everyone’s consulate report and timeline stats for the Consulate Report Directory and CLN timeline chart are welcome — and appreciated! The more we have, the better!
@Canadian Kathy; “City of Kitchener”
Can we ask what type of job?
Also it was brilliant that you got the clerk to write a letter that was a political subdivision, others here will benefit from that wisdom.
There is also the government page below regarding our 3 levels of government:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/about/parliament/education/ourcountryourparliament/html_booklet/three-levels-government-e.html