Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart            Part 2

1,560 thoughts on “Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart            Part 2”

1. The fee schedule at the U.S. Embassy in Ottawa lists one fee for “Processing Letters Rogatory & FSIA”. No idea what that is but it costs $2275 — cheaper than renunciation. Yay renunciation — you’re still the tops! (snark)
   http://canada.usembassy.gov/consular_services/fees/passport-fees.html
   http://canada.usembassy.gov/consular_services/fees/consular-fees.html

2. As of now, claims to prior relinquishments (whatever acts) are still at no charge. This is VS renunciations at US$2,350.

3. Thank you.

4. @EmBee:

   “The great thing about renouncing young is you don’t have a lot of tax and penalty baggage usually. Sadly there is now a hefty fee for renunciations and long waits for renunciation appointments at some consulates.”

   …get the process started now, before you/your wife are/is pregnant. If your CLN is dated the day before the baby is born the kid is not infected. Dated the same day could be a real problem. Even if you’re single and you’re having no luck, you never know when that might change.

5. @pacifica777-some statistics on my mother-in law’s experience, for your records.

   Emigration from U.S. to Canada: July, 1966
   Naturalization to Canada: Feb. 28, 1972
   Relinquishment appointment, Calgary Consulate: Apr. 4, 2014
   Receipt of CLN: Oct. 28, 2014

   Date of relinquishment on CLN: Feb.28, 1972
   Date of issue of CLN: Sept. 30, 2014

6. Thanks, Shovel! Good to hear your mother in law got her CLN and appreciate your sharing the data for our Time Chart.

7. I would like to report the arrival of a friend’s CLN in Auckland, New Zealand. 10 month wait time.

8. @purekiwi

   Can you say whether your friend’s CLN was for renunciation or for (documentation of a previous) relinquishment?

   TIA

9. @tdott

   It was a straightforward renunciation. The CLN was stamped “approved” in July but it was not received until the first week of November, 4 months later.

10. I lived in the US for the first 4 months of my life. I have never had a passport, a social security number or vacationed there for more than 3 weeks. Nor have I worked there. I spent 10 years working for a city in Canada, where i was required to take an oath of allegiance, of which I have a copy.

    I had my meeting at the US consulate in September for relinquishment. The first fellow I spoke with advised me that he did not feel my oath and employment were sufficient to have relinquished citizenship. He said that since I already had Canadian citizenship when I took the oath, the oath was meaningless, and that since I was not required to acquire Canadian citizenship for my employment, my employment with the government (in policy work) was not an act of relinquishment.

    He then offered at least 3 times for me to renounce my citizenship, enticing me with today’s low rate of $450, which would be increasing to $2300 in only 10 days. This was my last chance for highly recommended bargain renunciation. However, I insisted on proceeding with the relinquishment paperwork . He advised that he is not the adjudicator and that someone else would make the final decision.

    The following hour+ was spent in the waiting room. Finally, I was called to speak to the person with whom I supposed some authority rested. She proceeded to sign and fill out the relinquishment paperwork and asked me a few questions. She advised that a decision would be made in Washington as to the validity of the request. When asked, she admitted she would make a recommendation. When asked what that would be, she said she did not know, that she was new to the department and that she would need to “consult her department” in order to make a decision. She said my case was a gray area, that she would likely not recommend the processing of a CLN, but that she did not know. She then continued to proceed to tell me that I would receive the CLN in the envelope provided, or they would contact me sooner. When I asked how they would contact me if they did not intend to give me a CLN, she did not know and had to go ask someone else in the office. She seemed to be consulting the first fellow I spoke with. Her job knowledge was clearly limited. She was very pleasant though. She also offered for me to simply renounce today at the next window.

    In finishing the paperwork, she needed to let me know the finality of my actions and advised that I would no longer enjoy the benefits of US Citizenship. She then laughed and volunteered the comment that I have never enjoyed any benefits of us citizenship.

    So, I have no idea what this means. I insisted on following through with the relinquishment, they filled out the paperwork, then could not advise whether or not I could expect to receive a CLN, but where not positive. My guess is that they are advised to route as many people as possible through the renunciation process as possible.

    Apparently, I will wait 3-6 months to find out if my CLN arrives.

    I am finding this stressful. Since then, I changed financial institutions and have now had my investment accounts frozen because I am in the middle of this. I was flagged because I answered that I was born in the US. RBC chased me down and said I could not do anything with my account until I have a CLN.

    Since my renunciation took place prior to Feb 6, 1995, I understand i had no duty to inform the state department of my actions. In this case, I feel i could approach RBC with my rationale for not being a US person and they should accept it.

    Anyone else out there with similar circumstances? Looking for a bright light at the end of this long dark tunnel!

11. Fascinating and unfair and stressful for you on so many levels.

    The consular officials don’t know the law. Taking a non policy level job with a foreign state or subdivision leads to loss of Us citizenship if intent to lose was there. Intent is proven by subsequent actions.

    The only issue is whether or not a city is a subdivision of a state.
    Please let us know how this turns out. There are many others (some who don’t wish to post) in the same boat.

    Did you change to RBC before or after? RBC had no business asking where you were born. If they did ask, a reasonable explanation is supposed to be good enough. ( this consists of a self certification on a W8ben that you are not a US citizen and a reason why you don’t have a CLN. )You are correct that you had no duty to inform the state department or obtain a CLN before 1995.
    Finally , RBC has no business freezing your account. Would you be willing to move your account once again? You might consider a non participating credit union as a place to park your accounts until you have some answers. You could also look for a FI that asks citizenship but not place of birth.

12. @KCam

    You didn’t say how or when you obtained Canadian citizenship. Please let us know. Also, in what city was your interview, if you don’t mind posting it?

    You did say you were a Canadian when you began employment with the city. The consul was correct when he said that your oath was meaningless to them because you were already a Canadian citizen. See Page 4:

    http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120544.pdf

    He was incorrect when he said “since I was not required to acquire Canadian citizenship for my employment, my employment with the government (in policy work) was not an act of relinquishment.” That was Section 401(d) NA which was in effect only from 1940 until 1952. See Page 3:

    http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120540.pdf

    I assume it was RBC DI who froze your account? Investment account divisions seem to get much higher attention than simple checking and savings accounts.

    The bright light is that it seems to me your case is solid, and we have a few examples where Washington DC decided in favour of claims even though the consuls recommended against them. For the claim to be valid, you would have to have told them that at the time you took the employment, you knew you were a US citizen, you knew that accepting the employment was a potentially expatriating act, you intended to relinquish USC by taking the job, and of course it was all voluntary.

    The dark side is that you wait will be more like 1 year (10 to 13 months is the time frame that I’ve seen lately for relinquishments).

13. @WhatAmI

    I was naturalized in the 1970s when my parents became Canadian citizens. But I was under 10.
    Vancouver was my appointment.

    As for RBC, I understand that they notify the CRA immediately if you withdraw your accounts and that CRA will then notify IRS. It was DI with RBC. I feel I should be able to give them reasonable explanation and they should not require a CLN. I have not yet pursued though.

    thanks for your reply.

14. Dukeofdevon,

    I changed my accounts after my relinquishment appointment. I think I will send them a written explanation as to why I am not a US person and see what happens.

15. thanks again for the links. You have inspired me to compose something for RBC with attachments and references!

16. @KCam,

    Please report back with whatever details you are comfortable posting with regards to what arguments you give RBC and how they respond.

    Some consulates will give letters to people who renounce to show that they have renounced (and therefore waiting for a CLN), but few or none who relinquish have gotten such letters, presumably because they CLN be denied.

17. “you will no longer enjoy the benefits of US citizenship”
    It is PURE MADNESS. Totally insane.

18. @KCam,

    Good you stood your ground. So far everyone we know who’s stood their ground on s. 4(a) has prevailed and received a CLN based on their s. 4(a) relinquishment. A while back, I followed up on this question with DoS Citizen Services/Legal Affairs in DC and they confirmed what we knew, that a dual citizen can relinquish through government employment.

    It’s not the oath (s. 4(b)); it’s the act of taking the employment (s. 4(a)) that a dual citizen relinquishes under. And there’s nothing in the law about being required to acquire citizenship for employment in order to make it an act of relinquishment. Some consulate staff have lots of ideas of what they “feel” the law is (or maybe what they think it should be) but they can never point to anything concrete when they try to pull this stuff.

    It appears that DC really does read the file and does not automatically approve a negative recommendation. We’ve had about five people who relinquished by government employment, got negative recommendations and got their correctly-dated relinquishment-based CLNs,no rejections so far and a few whose files are still in progress.

    For stories of some other s. (4)(a) people, there’s links in this article. http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/03/20/relinquishment-of-us-citizenship-by-persons-born-dual-or-who-naturalised-in-a-foreign-country-as-a-minor/

19. @ KCam,

    Re the bank, there’s some sections of the IGA dealing with providing a financial institution with a “reasonable explanation” in lieu of a CLN. You may have read it already, but in case not:

    http://www.fin.gc.ca/treaties-conventions/pdf/FATCA-eng.pdf

    Annexe 1, II (b)(4)

    Notwithstanding a finding of U.S. indicia under subparagraph B(1) of this section, a Reporting Canadian Financial Instittion is not required to treatan account as a U.S. Reportable Account if:
    a)
    Where the Account Holder information unambiguously indicates U.S. place of birth, the Reporting Canadian Financial Institution obtains, or has previously reviewed and maintains a record of:
    (1)
    A self-certification that the Account Holder is neither a U.S. citizen nor a U.S. resident for tax purposes (which may be on an IRS Form W-8 or other similar agreed form);
    (2)
    A non-U.S. passport or other government-issued identification
    evidencing the Account Holder’s citizenship or nationality in a country other than the United States; and
    (3)
    A copy of the Account Holder’s Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States or a reasonable explanation of:
    (a) The reason the Account Holder does not have such a certificate despite relinquishing U.S. citizenship;
    or (b) The reason the Account Holder did not obtain U.S. citizenship at birth

20. pacifica777

    Thanks – this will be most useful in my correspondence with the bank. I had not seen this reference.

    I will keep you posted…

21. pacifica777

    In the attached Agreement (IGA?) , there are exemptions (page 45) for several different types of accounts, including RRSP’s and TFSA’s.(Appendix II, Section IV “Accounts Excluded from Financial Accounts”.) My DI accounts are RRSPs and TFSA’s. Have I got this right? If so, it should not be that complicated to resolve. I must be missing something….

22. KCam. You are absolutely correct. By definition, your RRSPs and TFSAs are ‘ non reportable’. RBC shouldn’t be bothering you . If you start a non registered account may I suggest you find a more amenable FI?

23. $2,250 gives embassies the incentive to push people towards renouncing rather than relinquishing.

    Stories of frozen accounts will stimulate the demand for renunciations. Canada may soon surpass Switzerland for renunciations per capita.

24. @ KCam,

    Yes, it’s the IGA. I’m not very familiar with the IGA’s contents, so I’d better not answer your question. Quite a few other people are more familiar with it and they will – looks like Duke has already!

25. @KCam, remember though that just because an account isn’t required to be reported doesn’t mean the FI isn’t going to find out the info needed to do this just in case. The key words earlier on under the “Pre-existing Individual Accounts” (page 20) are:

    “Unless the Reporting Canadian Financial Institution elects otherwise, …”

    There is no requirement for FI’s to report individual accounts with under $50,000 in them. But it doesn’t mean that the FI’s aren’t getting the info on those clients none the less. My two accounts here in Switzerland are both well under that mark, but I still needed to provide a CLN and sign a W-8EN to keep said banks happy.