Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart            Part 2

1,560 thoughts on “Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart            Part 2”

1. It looks like after that cost of filing for five years, paying back-taxes and associated penalties, and now the increased renunciation fees, we’re all going to have to sell off our yachts, race horses and race cars to extricate ourselves from their clutches. Hardly worth the trouble of evading taxes, is it?

   BASTARDS! Do they want to radicalize us or something?

2. If it does go up that much then that’s way over the simpe cost of the processing. If the $450 we pay now is supposed to be 25% of the processing costs then the full figure would only be $1,800.

   Bubblebustin, I think they already realise we’re radicalized. This will make people even more furious with the US government. Would also suspect that making the process so expensive could be challenged as it interfers with a citizen’s right to renounce as laid out in the Constitution.

3. Pingback: The Isaac Brock Society | Comparison of fees and procedures for renouncing citizenship in various countries

4. What reason did they give for not wanting to take your application for relinquishment? Did they think it would fail on some ground?

   I can’t see how mine could fail as I had let my passport expire with no action taken, etc., but I will not be pleased if they turn it down just so they can gouge me on the new(!) fee for renunciation.

5. Moderator, could you please ask Canadian girl.403 to contact me via my private email? I think we share similar Calgary consulate experiences. Thanks so much.

6. Done, molly — and one day some of us should get together for coffee, say Higher Ground.

7. @Bubblebustin.

   I dunno. I think my “Mercedes”, “mansion” and “yacht” got stolen. I can’t find ’em anywhere. Can’t find my Ferrari either. Maybe I should fill out a police report.

   …and I’m supposed to be this big-time tax cheat…according to the IRS? Yeah…right. My wife makes $22,000 (not $22,000,000) an year and we’re expected to support Obamacare and pay taxes for 1 out of 3 people who don’t want to work…in the United States? Does anybody else think this is a little crazy? Wish my wife could renounce, but at $22,000 we can barely manage to get by paycheck to paycheck. Our family comes first. Glad for the people who are managing to square away things and get out.

8. Thanks @calgary411. Yes, I know….we still have to make that coffee thing happen!

   One question I have for people is this: if an application for a past-date relinquishment is turned down by Washington, is there any avenue to appeal? What if you feel strongly that the recommendation to deny your claim by the vice consul was misinformed and just plain wrong?

   I had a terrible experience last month at the Calgary consulate. The vice consul was aggressive and combative, raising his voice unnecessarily and becoming very unpleasant. It was clear to me that he’d spent a lot of time before my appointment reviewing my paperwork and trying to find any small detail that he could use to disallow my claim. It seems like these guys are on a total power trip with their own agenda and with absolutely no checks or balances. Who oversees how these bullies treat people? When a police officer oversteps his authority, there’s a process you can follow to complain. Where do we turn in this situation? Just wondering…..

9. I wonder if they’re being told to lean on people to go away from relinquishing and towards renunciation, in order to collect the increasing fee monies.

10. I want to report my renouncement at the Toronto Consulate.

    First of all, a BIG thank you to all the members who took the time to report their experiences as it greatly helped me to be prepared for the appointment. To start, a little background information on myself: I was born in Canada to an American parent, naturalized at birth, lived in Canada most of my life, and currently living in Canada.

    In MAY 2014, I emailed the embassy, requesting information for renunciation. They sent me an email full of information on what forms to fill out and what to bring. It was very straight forward. I asked a few questions, and they were courteous, professional and highly helpful. I filled out the appropriate forms and emailed them back, and was emailed an appointment for AUGUST 2014.

    I must have read the Consulate Reporting Directory PDF about 10 times… it was monumental on my preparation for the meeting, and I highly suggest anyone renouncing do the same thing. It made my experience at the embassy stress free, and all the employees said they appreciated my preparation. So don’t get all worked up about this, if you’ve made the choice to renounce for honest reasons, this is a simple and straight forward process.

    Before arriving, I triple checked my documents, even brought extra blank ones just in case. I printed my scheduled appointment email from the Embassy and headed downtown. I arrived at the simcoe entrance at about 2:00pm. There were two lines, no one was in the US Citizen line. I ensured that my appointment slip and my US passport were in clear view on top of my folder with my documents. The guard saw me, called me over, said hello and asked me how my day was, and saw my appointment and asked me if I had any electronic devices to which i said NO. The guard responded “Fantastic! We appreciate people who read our website, it makes it a lot easier for us!” He then let me in. I went through the airport security style entrance with the metal detector, and put my folder on the X-ray belt. Again the two security people were smiling and chatting about their day.

    I was quickly directed to the elevator which took me to the third floor. I was first in line. I met with the clerk and explained to I was there to renounce my citizenship. She took the appropriate forms, my birth certificate and passport, we chatted a bit, again she was very kind and polite. Gave me a number and asked me to take a seat. It was now 2:15pm

    I sat down, there was only one other person in the waiting room amongst 70 or so chairs, and I began reading a book. At about 2:35 the big letter board with numbers displayed my number and I was called to another window and met a new person. He was very kind, soft spoken, and went through the forms I had filled out, asked some simple questions: 1) When did you become a citizen? 2) Did you ever live in the sates? 3) When did you think about giving up citizenship? 4) Why do you want to give up citizenship? He was very thorough in going through the paper work, noticed some errors, and asked me to change them. He clearly told me the errors were not my fault as the paper work is worded awkwardly and he often finds people make the same mistakes. We talked briefly about my experience of being in the US, we made some light hearted comments back and forth. He acknowledged and completely understood my reasoning for renouncing. He then handed me a slip and told me to pay my $450 fee at the cashiers window.

    I went to the last window and paid cash, again the person was very nice, we had a laugh about how the process of accepting the money was almost like being at las vegas casino, where they look at the money through lights, count the bills, show that their hands don’t have any more money in it. I was then asked to sit down and wait again. I returned to the waiting room, there were now 4 other people sitting.

    At 3:10pm my number came and I went back to the window and met the gentleman I had gone through the paper work with. He said that everything was fine, and I had to make an oath. He asked me to raise my right hand and repeat the entire renunciation form after him. The process took about two minutes, to which I smiled and said that he must have memorized it by now, to which he smiled and responded with a witty remark about it being very wordy. He then said my CLN would take 6-9 months to approve. I asked him about crossing the border with my Canadian passport, if there would be any questions from the border guards to which he said no, and if there were to show them the receipt of payment for the CLN. I asked him if he needed my US SSN card or Nexus, again he said no. ** See note about NEXUS entry below.

    I said goodbye and returned to the first floor, via the elevator, and went out the same door I came in. It was over by 3:25pm

    Overall I thought the process would be stressful and intimidating, but that was all in my head. The staff of the consulate will treat you with utmost respect if you take the time to be prepared.

    ** NOTE ABOUT NEXUS: For members who have nexus I did confirm that you can no longer use GLOBAL ENTRY or NEXUS as your NEXUS card requires you to hold your US PASSPORT. You must wait until you receive your CLN and then go to the NEXUS office to update your passport info, to which they might cancel your membership and you will have to apply all over again. http://tax-expatriation.com/2014/06/17/global-entry-sentri-and-nexus-after-renouncing-the-trusted-traveler-programs-safe-travels/

11. @Mark Johnson
    Congratulations! And thank you for reporting to us all your experience at the Counsel.
    I went last July 2014 to relinquish my US citizenship due to my Canadian citizenship I took in the early 90s. I was asked if I was renouncing but being on Isaac Brock I knew my circumstances and said I had relinguished and wanted you CLN sent to me The official agreed. I had the forms all filled out correctly and was told it would take 4 months. Idid not have to pay anything. It took 10 months for it to arrive in the mail.. It is a relief. I am still on the Brock bus and contributing to the ADCS Court challenge. We must continue to fight this. I also make sure everyone I speak to knows how FATCA affects Canadians, even if they are not American.

12. @Mark Johnson, Congratulations on giving up your US citizenship burden. Great to hear that the Consulate Report helped you prepare yourself so well for your interview.

13. @ Mark,

    Congratulations! Glad to hear your renunciation meeting went smoothly and positively. Good to know that Brock was helpful to you in preparing for your renunciation and thanks very much for your detailed report, which will help others.

14. @ Molly,

    I remember the discussion on another thread a few days ago, but noticing that you had also posted your question on this thread, I thought I’d post my comment here too for the benefit of anyone reading this thread who may find the document of interest or use.

    There’s some information about appeals in 7 FAM 1230 Administrative Review and Appeal of Loss-of-Nationality Findings. I don’t know anything about it as I don’t know anyone who has appealed.

15. @ Mark,

    I hope you don’t mind me asking, but do you plan – or have you already – filed five yrs of back taxes with the IRS? Will this need to be your next and last step before you are free from U.S. indicia? Also, I note that you were born in Canada to an American parent . . . as was I. What reason did you give for renouncing?
    I am hoping your answers will help me make a plan to move forward.
    with thanks.

16. @Molly, @pacifica777

    7 FAM 1230 is interesting. Like pretty much every section of the FAM and INA, it is written from the point of view of a citizen appealing their loss of citizenship to get it back. I wonder what “new” unpublished guidance CA/OCS/L are using for the now common case of people arguing that they deserve and want to lose their citizenship rather than being forced to keep it against their will.

    The INA changes forced by the Supreme Court in 1986 took the power away from Congress and gave it to the individual to decide whether or not she wants to keep her US citizenship when performing an expatriating act. But this only seems to apply when the US would otherwise want to take it away from you. With the tables turned and the individual _wants_ to rid themselves of USC, the CA/OCS/L is seemingly retaining the old power to make the decisions that individuals were supposedly empowered with in 1986. It makes no sense at all.

    There needs to be a new FAM section covering the current state of affairs where people are lined up around the block to rid themselves of USC, especially when based on past relinquishing acts. As we have been seeing, the experiences in different consulates around the country and world vary greatly, and then are sometimes overridden by the CA/OCS/L.

17. Thanks everyone for your words of support. I hummed and hawed about this for years, and glad I made the choice.

    @sasha

    I have been US compliant forever. I’ve never missed a return and usually end up paying more. The final reasoning for my renunciation wasn’t paying the tax or the lengthy and expensive accounting bills (however I wont miss doing all that), but because of America’s foreign policy on screwing over their so called beloved citizens. I have seen my own peers, law abiding Canadians at heart, born in Canada, threatened by defunct American policies simply because they were born to a US citizen abroad. I was willing to tolerate being US compliant, but FACTA threw me over the edge. I don’t understand how a Canadian convicted criminal can have more legal rights than me being a duel citizen. The choice was clear: Canada or USA. I have never considered myself to be American, neither does anyone else. My whole life is in Canada, and I’m proud to be a Canadian. So the decision was easy for me. I’d like to be recognized in my country that I love as a whole citizen protected by the charter of rights that i respect and uphold. No one or country is gonna get in the way of that.

18. @Sasha, you don’t have to give a reason for renouncing. Renunciation is a personal decision you make and you don’t have to explain why you made it if you don’t want to. I didn’t when I renounced last year here in Switzerland. But if you want to tell them something just say you want to simpify your life or no longer want to have conflicting loyalities/alligences by having two citizenships.

    If you’re not up to date on your tax filings you can still renounce and then do them afterwards. Again, that’s what I did last year, though luckily I only needed to backfile 6 years of FBAR forms under the Streamlined program as I don’t have any income.

19. @ Mark Johnson
    Thanks for elaborating on your experiences & thoughts re. U.S. citizenship. Congratulations on your renunciation success!

    @ Medea Fleecestealer
    Thanks for your thoughts & suggestions re. the renunciation process. I am still deliberating my path forward as I mull over my options.

20. @Sasha, then you’re going about this in the right way. Explore all the possibilities and then decide which one will work best for you. Don’t be rushed into any hasty decisions.

21. Thought it might be of interest – after several e-mails to US consulate in Vancouver to arrange a renunication appointment in January 2015, including fillilng out 4079 etc, to no avail, I contacted the Calgary consultate this weekend and had an e-mail first thing this morning with an appointment date in January 2015.

22. DM,

    THANK YOU for that information. Why has Vancouver been so difficult? It appeared they were improving, but evidently not.

    Although no one should have to add the cost of travel and accommodation to their renunciation fee, Calgary may be the option for those who can afford it.

    Which then comes back to the question, why can it be unaffordable to get freedom for some people?

    Thanks again.

23. @ DM,

    Thanks very much for sharing this information. Sorry that Calgary is also booked til January. Vancouver sounds even more frustrating, though, as they’re apparently not even communicating in reply to e-mails, you can’t even nail down a January date with them.

    So the latest news is Vancouver and Calgary January 2015, and Toronto February 2015 (at least as of a couple of weeks ago).

    @ Calgary,

    Ditto on all your observations.

24. To be clear – I had requested January however Calgary’s e-mail does say “the next available appointment is January”.

    And, the travel etc is a pain but is entirely worth it.

25. On 10 July I made an appointment on the US Osaka Consulate’s website for 28 July for “notarial services other than listed above” and emailed them to say that my purpose was to relinquish US citizenship as a result of my naturalization to Japan. They emailed (unsigned) back on 15 July (3 business days) telling me to read about the consequences of losing US citizenship on the Department of State website and if I wanted to proceed I should send them by post the completed DS-4079 that they attached, together with copies of my US and Japanese passports, an original and translation of my Japanese Family Register, a copy of my US birth certificate, and some other incidental information. I also sent copies and translations of the 2 oaths that I signed during the Japanese naturalization process. The email said I could alternatively bring the documents in person to the appointment I had scheduled for 28 July and have “a brief interview to answer any questions I might have on the process”. I mailed the docs, but went in on 28 July anyway because it is not all that inconvenient for me.

    It must have been visa application day, because when I arrived at the consulate I was stopped well out on the sidewalk and asked if I was there to apply for a visa. When I replied that I was there for an appointment with American Citizen Services (ACS), they let me right in. Security at the Osaka consulate is not as draconian as at many locations as described by other posters. There is a large Japanese police van parked out in front and policemen on the sidewalk, and you have to get buzzed in or have the door opened from the inside in order to get in, but once in it is fairly relaxed. No armed guards in sight and no lining up to be escorted to ACS. Just show ID and go through the metal detector. No electronic devices allowed upstairs, but they’re happy to keep them for you at security; I’ve even seen some people leaving their luggage at the security check. So I left my cell phone at security and presented by US passport as ID and a printout of my appointment reservation at the counter and was given an ACS tag and told to go to the 4th floor.

    There are 3 windows and a sign saying to start at No. 3, but there was someone there getting a notarization, so I sat down. A local staff called me up to No. 2, and I went up and presented my US passport and the printout of my appointment reservation. She asked if I was there to have something notarized and I told her “no, I’m here regarding relinquishing US citizenship”. She didn’t understand, so I repeated it, twice without success, and finally told her in Japanese, which elicited a rather surprised expression. She went into a back room for a moment and then came back out and told me to take a seat.

    After about 15-20 minutes, another local staff came out into the waiting room and asked me to come into a meeting room. I recognized her as the staff I had dealt with during my Japanese naturalization process, which required a notarized confirmation of my US citizenship. At that time she had proactively offered me a Japanese translation of the confirmation on consulate letterhead in addition to the standard English document. Her English is excellent and I believe she in the senior local staff at ACS.

    I was happy to be sitting down in a meeting room and talking with her, rather than having to talk through bullet-proof glass. People who have gone through the process in Tokyo have said that everything, all the way through to the final appointment with the consular officer, was done while standing at the counter and having to talk through the bullet-proof glass.

    Once we were seated, about the first thing she said was “you know you don’t have to give up your US citizenship, you can just submit a Choice of Nationality Form” to the Japanese government. This is the same information as on the US Tokyo Embassy’s website, but it is not correct. At the time of my Japanese naturalization in March 2013 I was required to sign an oath stating that I would “promptly abandon/relinquish my US citizenship”, and I was told that I had 2 years in which to do so. Japan’s naturalization law specifically states that naturalization may be rescinded for failure to abandon any and all other nationalities. The “Choice of Nationality Form” to which she referred is intended for cases in which it is impossible to abandon the other nationality, as some countries apparently do not allow it. Rather than get into a discussion of why the US embassy and consulates in Japan give out this misleading information, I merely said that I wanted to be able to submit a “Loss of Foreign Nationality Form” and have my loss of foreign nationality entered on my Family Register, and she was fine with that.

    She said an appointment for the meeting with a consular officer could be in about 2 weeks, which surprised me a bit, since people relinquishing in Tokyo have reported difficulty in getting an appointment. This was actually a bit too soon for me, as I wanted some time to arrange my finances prior to my final day as a “US person for tax purposes”, so I scheduled for 18 September. I was pretty much able to pick any day and time of my choice, and she said I could contact them if I needed to reschedule, which would be no problem at all. I was told to bring my US and Japanese passports and the original copy of my US birth certificate to the meeting with the consular officer, and that they would be keeping my US passport but returning everything else at that time, including the certified copy of my Japanese Family Registered that I had mailed to them.

    On 20 August I received an email from the staffer with whom I had met on 28 July (the email was signed with the her name, but the email address was the consulate’s general mailbox) saying that my appointment on 18 September had become difficult due to a change in scheduling and asking if I would mind rescheduling. I emailed back requesting 11 September (ironically the last day prior to the 5-fold increase in the renunciation fee, but since my case was a relinquishment it did not really matter; also unfortunately the 9/11 anniversary, which did not cross my mind until after I had requested this date), and 2 days later I received a reply confirming that date.

    On 11 September I showed up at the Consulate at the appointed time and went through the same type of security procedures as at the previous visit and then on up to ACS. No one was at the windows, but through the glass I could see the staffer I had dealt with on the previous visit looking at some documents that appeared to be mine. Her back was to me, so I rang the bell. When she saw me she immediately came out and let me into the meeting room and said “Thank you for coming in again today, I’ll be right with you.” While waiting I read through a copy of the Statement of Understanding Concerning the Consequences and Ramifications of Renunciation or Relinquishment of U.S. Nationality that I had brought with me.

    After about 5 minutes she came back in with a bunch of paperwork for me to check over: the Request for Determination of Possible Loss of United States United States Citizenship (DS-4079) that I had filled out and sent them, a filled out Statement of Understanding (actually 2 of them, one with the “swear” box checked and another with the “affirm” box checked), and a filled out Certificate of Loss of Nationality. She enquired if I preferred “swear” or “affirm” for the Statement of Understanding (I chose “affirm”) and asked me to read the Statement and confirm all of the information on the documents. The Statement had all of the “renounce” and “renunciation” places crossed out, leaving “relinquish” and “relinquishment”. The CLN also had all the correct parts crossed out and stated that I had expatriated myself by naturalizing to Japan. Of course none of the documents had been signed by the Vice Consul yet, but I was happy to see that today’s date had been typed in for the signature date, since someone relinquishing in Tokyo reported that when he received his CLN the Vice Consul’s signature was dated more than a week after the appointment.

    About 15 minutes later the Vice Consul came in, and after a few pleasantries got down to business. He noted that I had signed an oath to abandon my US citizenship at the time of my Japanese naturalization. He apologetically said that although he was sure I had read and understood all this information, he needed to ask some to confirm that I had intended to lose my US citizenship and that my actions were completely voluntary. Once that was done, he asked me to once again review all the documents and sign 2 copies of each if everything was okay. He did not ask me to read the Statement of Understanding out loud, nor did he ask me to make verbal affirmation. It is a good thing I read through the documents again, because I noticed that I had mistakenly signed page 4 of the Request for Determination, which would be for someone trying to retain/recover their US citizenship. A very big mistake that I’m surprised they did not catch. They whited-out the signature and made a new photocopy of the page, and I signed in the correct space on page 5.

    The kept my US passport and said it would be returned to me cancelled together with the CLN. They said they would contact me when the CLN had been approved in the US, and that I could either come in and pick it up or they would mail it to me (they did not ask for a self-addressed stamped envelope). I asked if I could expect to receive the CLN in about a month as I was previously informed and they said it might take a bit longer, so I guess they’re aware of the backlog at the Dept. of State.

    Date of expatriating act (naturalization): March 2013
    Date of first contact with US Osaka Consulate: July 2014
    Date of first appointment (optional): July 2014
    Date of final appointment: September 2014 (delayed at own request)
    Date of CLN: I’ll post an update when it arrives.