Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
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Calgary411, it was an interesting conversation and I would bet that having a record of birth to US citizens abroad is one of the ways that the USG gets around the technicality of having to prove it “owns” duals. Encouraging parents to register their kids at birth saves them the trouble and provides them with all the proof they need when applying the whole extraterritorial tax rules.
Lesson in this is to definitely never register your foreign born kids. The citizenship is there for them to claim as adults or to totally ignore. Problem solved. Unless the USG can come up with some plausible way to require foreign countries to force their banks to do citizenship background checks.
@YogaGirl,
The one thing I did correctly (if by luck rather than anything else) — not registering children with the US.
This is a US absurdity that no one will be able to get their heads around — including financial institutions of other countries when they ignore their countries’ privacy laws and sovereignty as they start their quest (as an arm of the IRS under FATCA) to find those with US indicia.
Just to be troublesome, I’ll ask:
If an individual with a claim to US citizenship by descent obtains US citizenship as an adult, and is thus retroactively a US citizen from birth, is he/she on the hook for past years tax filings and FBARs?
@tdott: I’d guess the answer is yes…although maybe you would have reasonable cause to abate certain penalties
YogaGirl, they already do via FATCA to a certain extent, but trying to extend it further would be difficult to enforce. The banks would have to try and run ancestry checks themselves which would cost money. They’d also have to check every client because how would they know who has American ancestry and who doesn’t? Someone wrote here recently that he’d only found out when his American father finally told him, only telling him when he became an adult. If the client doesn’t know, how is a bank supposed to check?
Calgary411, I’d suggest gradually reducing your son’s finances over a period of years to bring it below the FBAR requirements, but if you have other accounts to report that wouldn’t really help. Is it not possible for the bank or a non-US person you trust to have signing/power of attorney rights over his finances instead of you? Then the reporting requirement wouldn’t apply.
@Medea,
The only relatives my son has in Canada: his mom, me, and his sister. We have renounced our US citizenship. The IRS will, by June 17, 2013 have our final IRS 1040’s and Form 8854’s. We will not be “covered expatriates” and will have no further obligation to file tax returns or FBARs to the US. The possible harm and connection is with the returns and reports filed with the US for past years — and what questions our Canadian financial institutions ask as FATCA comes into force.
My son has no FBARs filed on his behalf and he has no IRS returns filed with the US. He was never registered with the US, does not have a social security number (which he would have to have were I doing US filing for him on his behalf. It is absurd for me to enter him into the US books knowing that he cannot renounce and that I cannot renounce on his behalf.
Perhaps I could have had a Public Trustee handle all his financial matters had I known about all this years ago when I opened on his behalf the RDSP. Changing horses in mid-stream or moving his RDSP to a credit union (most do not offer RDSPs) would, I think, just raise questions about why I did that (as I have looked at questions asked on the forms to be filled out for moving an RDSP from one financial institution to another). I am just going to have to trust that what I have done is sufficient and that the US will not be so absolutely stupid as to make a case out of my son’s situation or that of any similar person and their family. I could never ask another person to take on responsibility for my son’s finances given his “supposed” US citizenship.
Just as the CA that I retain to do my Canadian tax returns and in the past two of my US returns, she will no longer do US tax returns and will take no new US clients — she cannot justify passing on to her clients the cost of her time for completing the new FATCA form 8938. Thus, she did my Canadian returns for the past two years and then those were taken to a US tax and accounting firm to have my US returns prepared. It is the same with the accounting firm that does my daughter’s business taxes — no longer will they do US returns. It is my observation that, more and more, only Canadian (or at least Calgarian) firms specializing in US returns are willing to take the liability and extra time and expense that US Person clients may bring them. US tax law and accounting expertise and time does come at great cost to US Persons Abroad.
Calgary411 please do not pay attention to Medea F. We have agreed that you son is ONLY Canadian. There is no need to change any of the arrangements you have made. Some of us are exaggerating the banks desire and ability to ferret out USCs . They really will not be interested in those with 1 degree of separation.
I had my appointment at the US embassy in London today. Apologies to Rev Susi for not having responded to her question about which date I had my appointment but I felt it was better if I wasn’t specific about the date until after the appointment. I’ll do a more thorough report later but at the moment I have champagne on ice and guests to celebrate with.
Congrats Edelweiss! Enjoy.
Edelweiss, congratulations. Hope your celebration was great. We’ll look forward to your report!
@ Edelweiss
Bubbles up and congrats! It must feel wonderful to have that embassy visit behind you. 🙂
@ calgary411
Do you think Mona Lisa will ever join us again? That incident was very upsetting and I was really hoping she hadn’t noticed. Unfortunately it isn’t easy or even possible to moderate every second of the day. Anyway, she is missed and I hope everything else is going well for her.
Thanks. I’m glad it’s behind me.
My appointment was for 2pm and I arrived about 20 mins early. I was told to come back in 10 mins as there would be no ACS staff available before 2pm anyway. I came back 10 mins later and seconds after a group of 4 took their place in the queue. Thankfully, the nice English security guard pulled me from the back of the queue to the front to go through security.
I arrived in the waiting area to find one other individual in a large room with seats for about 70 people. We were the only individuals in the room for the entire duration of my stay at the embassy. About 15 mins after arriving in the waiting area I was called to the window to present my documentation. After a further 10 mins I was called to the window to review the paperwork, indicate whether I wished to make a statement (I ticked no), swear or affirm, and indicate I would read the oath (they didn’t give me the option of having it read to me). At this point I was asked to pay the cashier and purchase the envelope for the mailing of the CLN. Having been fearful of being gouged by the exchange rate at the Embassy, I had purchased USD elsewhere. As it turns out, they were offering a pretty competitive rate as the receipt indicated the local currency amount was £295, pretty much the spot rate. The courier envelope was £14.80 (more if you want a specific delivery window) to have the CLN, once it arrives, delivered about 800m.
After about 30 mins I was called to the window to do the oath. The consular official was the first American I had encountered on my visit which I found a little strange. The armed police, security guards, and clerks were all English. My consular official was business like and professional but could never be accused of being friendly or in any way sympathetic. It felt like he was taking this personally. At the end he asked if I had anything else. I said that it’s a shame that the US government had made US citizenship incompatible with living anywhere but the US. He said “I have no idea what you’re talking about, sir.” And I said “Thanks for your time.” Before I turned away he suggested I could write to my congressman. I forgot to thank him for that suggestion.
Having worked towards this day for what feels like an eternity, I had no second thoughts or wavering. Nevertheless, I did find the whole process stressful. It felt like it took 60 mins after leaving for my blood pressure to return to normal. Or maybe that was the very large iced Americano I had consumed shortly before arrival at the consulate?
As with others I was given a letter stating that my US passport had been taken from me. I can’t remember precisely whether he said that I should not attempt to travel to the US or that it is not advisable to attempt to travel to the US before I receive my CLN. Either way, it’s not an issue for me.
17 Mar – email to Embassy with scans of all relevant docs attached and requesting appointment
3 Apr – requested to provide “renunciation questionnaire” and “informal renunciation acknowledgement”
8 Apr – advised that my appointment date would be 30 May
10 May – advised that my appointment date had been changed to 4 Jun
4 Jun – appointment date
I’m very much looking forward to receiving my CLN so that I can request new account numbers for my accounts.
@Calgary411
I have not had the time to acknowledge your informative response to my query. Thank you so much for taking the time and for being open about the details of your daughter’s decision. I continue to track your brave journey in advocating for a just outcome for the injustice that many “duals at birth” are facing. Your tireless efforts to fight for justice for your son, if ever achieved, will reap a benefit for many. You have a tenacious spirit that is truly inspiring.
And, I agree. I too am appreciating the conversation of this thread and am grateful to the many who have contributed.
I appreciate your kind words, therapist604.
I think a related comment that was submitted to Isaac Brock which I then pulled out and put into a separate post (and got many comments) will be of interest to you as well:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/05/31/we-want-to-know-once-and-for-all-for-sure-is-it-true-legal-policy-a-choice-the-us-cannot-force-anyone-who-is-born-outside-of-the-us-to-acquire-us-citizenship/.
As well, I posted at Isaac Brock this excellent discussion, authored by USCitizenAbroad http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/06/01/accidental-us-citizenship-does-it-stay-with-you-for-life/.
Edelweiss,
Thanks for adding your comprehensive report for our records. I have just included and updated in the Renunciation & Relinquishment database. Just waiting now for your report on receipt of your CLN.
New account numbers for your accounts — that’s a wise move, I’d say. Why leave all the “foreign” account information provided in our FBARs where it is subject to possible fraud / identity theft in a country other than where we live?
You’re right, Em. Her participation is missed and a loss to Isaac Brock. I wonder often how she’s doing. I hope she is checking in and get’s this message that we’re thinking of her and that we all hope she is doing OK.
Edelweiss, you should have pointed out to him that having just renounced you no longer had a congress person to write to.
Congratulations, Edelweiss!
Thanks very much for your report. Glad it went well (too bad the consulate guy was a such a sourpuss – sure that didn’t dampen your spirits though!)
Re blood pressure. My blood pressure was always around 120. But I got high blood pressure for the first time in my life (58 years) when I learned I might be a “US person.” It was in the 140-150 range for months. About a week after I applied for my CLN I checked my blood pressure – back down to 117!
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RENOUNCING AND RELINQUISHING US CITIZENSHIP???
Any information would be appreciated, either here, or directly to my email at
My previous experience with the US Consulate Jerusalem, Jerusalem (that is how they call themselves) was detailed elsewhere on this site.
In brief:
1) January 1, 2013, my bank accounts in Israel were blocked, purportedly on behalf of the US gov, pursuant to FATCA, but with no legal process either in the US or in Israel, and no bank record of the actions.. My money was returned only after intervention by the German Consul in Israel
2) January 14, 2013 I appeared in the US Consulate Jerusalem Jerusalem to renounce my US citizenship.
3) June 2013 I received a strange email from the consulate, asking for my German passport #. When I asked for the legal basis for such request, no response was received.
4) Today i received the email below, informing me that I “relinquished”, not “renounced” my US citizenship.
Any advise on the significance of this “determination” by the State Department would be gratefully received.
Joseph Zernik
_____
EMAIL CORRESPONDENCE WITH THE US CONSULATE JERUSALEM JERUSALEM
———- Forwarded message ———-
From: Smith, Kirk G
Date: Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 8:32 AM
Subject: RE: Renunciation of US citizenship
To: JZ
Dear Mr. Zernik,
Thank you for the address information. We will send the document to you and also alert via e-mail when it has been sent. However, the Department of State determined that you relinquished your U.S. citizenship rather than renounced it. This decision was based on the notes that I took during our interviews. You may be entitled to a refund of the $450.00 fee that was charged for the renunciation.
I am investigating how to do that with our financial management office. I will advise you of the outcome as soon as I know.
Sincerely,
Kirk G. Smith
Consul
U.S. Consulate General Jerusalem
In accordance with the provisions of E.O. 12958, this e-mail is unclassified.
Privacy/PII
This email is UNCLASSIFIED.
From: JZ [mailto:123456xyz@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2013 6:30 PM
To: Smith, Kirk G
Subject: Re: Renunciation of US citizenship
Forgot to add: please send me an email notice upon mailing the CLN, so that i know when to expect it. Thanks, jz
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 4:16 PM, JZ wrote:
June 10, 2013
Kirk G. Smith, Consul
U.S. Consulate General Jerusalem
Dear Consul Smith:
Thank you for your communication, copied below.
Please sent the Certificate of Loss of Nationality to my mailing address below (certified mail would be appreciated).
Truly,
Joseph Zernik, PhD
PO Box 31440
Jerusalem, 91313
==============
Dear Mr. Zernik,
You visited our office on January 15, 2013 in order to renounce your United States citizenship.
The Department of State has reviewed the materials related to your renunciation and has approved your Loss of Nationality. We would like to communicate with you in order to deliver to you the Certificate of Loss of Nationality.
I have tried to contact you at the phone number that you provided to us back in January, but I have been unsuccessful.
Please contact me at your earliest convenience in order to arrange delivery of the Certificate.
Sincerely,
Kirk G. Smith
Consul
U.S. Consulate General Jerusalem
In accordance with the provisions of E.O. 12958, this e-mail is unclassified.
Privacy/PII
This email is UNCLASSIFIED.
@Joseph Zernik
Mazal Tov! What a good final outcome to your struggle! It’s generally very tough to meet the requirements for relinquishment in Israel. I am astounded and pleasantly surprised that DoS reviewed your renouncement and changed it to a relinquishment.
Anyone, has that ever happened before?
I also wrote you offline, but wanted to give you a public Mazal Tov!
@Joseph,
Congratulations on your CLN!
This is the first report I’ve heard of DoS receiving a renunciation and determining that the person had relinquished their citizenship prior to making the oath of renunciation.
So, something/s you said to him indicated that you had relinquished your citizenship, and as a result, they determined that you performed one of the acts in s. 349(a) [see below] with the intent to relinquish your US citizenship, and therefore were not a US citizen when you signed the oath of renunciation. BTW, it’s standard procedure for the consul to send a report about the meeting to DC, but the result from yours is extremely rare.
I’m curious. Did you fill out a DS-4079 questionnaire and/or provide a written statement to the consulate?
When you get you CLN, the date of the expatriation is important because you may have ceased to be a USC before the exit tax and related paperwork existed.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/02/16/pre-1995-relinquishers-and-the-irs-three-recent-legal-opinions/
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/03/05/michael-miller-paper-on-the-exit-tax-applies-propsectively/
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/09/13/renunciation-and-relinquishment-what-are-the-differences-is-there-a-difference/
Immigration and Nationalties Act. S. 349(a)
“A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality-
(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if
(A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or
(B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer; or
(4) (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or
(B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required;
I would guess it’s either to do with you obtaining Israeli or German citizenship. It may be for example that when you acquired German citizenship through naturalisation, German law didn’t allow for dual-citizenship so you committed an “expatriating act” by swearing alligence to Germany. That’s just a guess though.
It means you get your $450 back and could mean you have no need to file back taxes if you haven’t been doing so already. See the blogs on the right-hand side on Did you Reliquish before 6 Feb 1995 and For Those who Expatriated before June 3, 2004.
There are many ways it could have happened:
(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—
(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if
(A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or
(B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer; or
(4)
(A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or
(B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required; or
(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state, in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State; or
(6) making in the United States a formal written renunciation of nationality in such form as may be prescribed by, and before such officer as may be designated by, the Attorney General, whenever the United States shall be in a state of war and the Attorney General shall approve such renunciation as not contrary to the interests of national defense; or
(7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of title 18, or violating section 2384 of title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction.
(b) Whenever the loss of United States nationality is put in issue in any action or proceeding commenced on or after September 26, 1961 under, or by virtue of, the provisions of this chapter or any other Act, the burden shall be upon the person or party claiming that such loss occurred, to establish such claim by a preponderance of the evidence. Any person who commits or performs, or who has committed or performed, any act of expatriation under the provisions of this chapter or any other Act shall be presumed to have done so voluntarily, but such presumption may be rebutted upon a showing, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the act or acts committed or performed were not done voluntarily.
So congratulations on the good news. You’re now an “ex” like many of us. Well done.
@Joseph:
The difference is
1.) For Immigration purposes, the date is recognized the date you with intent to give up citizenship you do one of the following:
a.) naturalize in a foreign state (e.g. made aliyah) b.) took an oath of allegiance c.) serve in a foreign army d.) serve in a political office in a foreign state
2.) It’s free (instead of $450)
3.) If the date is before June 4, 2004, the IRS recognizes the date of the act of relinquishment is per #1 a, b, c, d not the date you inform the consulate of your decision to expatriate. Relinquishment’s after on or after are recognized the date you go to the embassy/consulate and tell them of your intent.
4.) You aren’t put on the FBI’s ban list ban you from carrying a firearm in the U.S.
5.) You aren’t subject to the Reed amendment potentially making you inadmissable to the US if they determine you expatriate for tax purposes. (currently unenforced in any event)
6.) The date is important also for transmission of citizenship to children. After that date, it is impossible to transmit citizenship; before that date it is possible to transmit citizenship to children born to you. Your date will thus probably be the date you made aliyah.
I guess Kirk is starting to get educated…
@ Medea
I’ve wondered why they wanted to see Joseph’s German passport. It seemed so irrelevant. But your speculation in light of this development makes it make sense. Perhaps that’s it.