Banking Issues
Please provide information or ask questions about Banking issues in this comment stream.
I will create sub-topic threads as the situation arises, keeping a copy of the comment that starts a legnthy specific discussion on the Banking Issues thread, so the Banking Issues thread will remain the main source for banking information and dicsusion. But sub-topic threads should help people easily find (or avoid, if it doesn’t interest them) detailed information and conversation on specific matters.
Sub-topic Threads:
Problems with Banks After Renunciation
@ Ron Henderson,
Thank you. The child who files has disclosed his US citizenship to his employer, because it is a significant factor for his job. Therefore, the FI that holds his pension (presently his biggest asset) knows. This is but one more “disclosure trap”.
@Duchesse
Your child who files has only two choices, realistically: continue filing forever, or renounce. If they are wealthy enough that renunciation would incur an exit tax, they could
avoidevade that by not filing Form 8854 after renouncing.I was wondering how one could open up a bank account in France or Switzerland with a US birthplace. I have citizenship in France (EU) Switzerland USA and Canada.
I have heard most banks won’t allow US born clients to get bank account. I am under the radar for IRS so don’t want to disclose any info to them. I noticed that only place of birth is on EU passport but not country so maybe pretend the place is in Canada?
Banks in Canada don’t ask for ID with birthplace.
The problem is often that a place of birth is on the ID card required in order to open the account. There are still some banks and financial institutions that won’t have Americans but plenty that will, so basic banking should not be an issue.
If my US place of birth also happened to be a place in Canada and I have A Canadian passport, I know what I would do.
Incidentally, I would not worry even if I was on the IRS radar, what are they going to do when they have pretty much zero information and no ability to enforce a damned thing?
The idiot Yanks, after causing global mayhem and hundreds of billions in costs have just realised they have created a massive database of complete crap on other nations residents and citizens who likely don’t owe, can’t be made to file or pay and in which real US tax evaders can just lay low, a needle in a truly massive US made haystack.
So they have not allocated any budget to processing it.
As John Richardson frequently says, you could not make this up because nobody would believe it.
Its such a silly situation we are in. I was less than 1 when I left USA and never went back lived worked or studied there so its absurd that I should fill out income tax forms for them. But the canadian passport clearly has country of birth on it but not the EU passport which surprised me.
I guess if there is no country of birth on the id card then you could tell the bank anything. My understanding is that very few banks would deal with US place of birth people in France and likely elsewhere in Europe.
@Johnny
The practical solution to avoiding FATCA reporting and opening a bank account: use whatever combination of IDs works to convince banks that you were born in Canada, then fail to disclose your US citizenship when asked.
The bombproof solution to the same problem: spend $2,350 to renounce US citizenship, then show your CLN to any bank that asks; not that you do not need to be caught up on US tax filings first, you can simply renounce and continue ignoring the IRS.
Any bank recommendations for Belgium?
I’ve just been frozen by a bank here (unfrozen until June 1 after I gave them a piece of my mind) because I didn’t give up my SSN (which I have, and will reluctantly have to give up, perhaps with a typo).
One lesson had learned for myself, but had forgotten when I started my company (LLC) : always have several banks. Now my company is stuck at one bank and when they froze everything I was helpless. That’s never going to happen to me again.
I realize all banks are basically greedy businesses, but they don’t all act the same in all circumstances; thus my advice is have several accounts.
Any experience with the Federal Credit Union as a bank to open a US account ?
Thanks and cheers to all
If you need a basic, purely online US dollar account with a US routing number, use Wise.
Has anyone renounced and then informed their bank that they are no longer a US person? How should I go about doing that? I just got my CLN and want to make sure the bank stops sending any of my info to the IRS!
@JRidge
I would call the bank first, it’s possible you can do this all over the phone, or at very least if they want to see your CLN they’ll let you know where to send a copy or if you need to appear in person somewhere.
I never dealt with this because I never disclosed US citizenship to any financial institutions. Around 2015 I noticed that any time I dealt with the bank they would want to “update our customer records” and snuck that question into the mix. I glanced at the monitor and it looked like they’d just added some data fields to the standard customer profile. It would be a simple matter now of going in and unchecking a box that had previously been checked. How long it would take for that to work its way through the system to stop FATCA reporting is another question, but really not that big a deal. By 2026 you would be able to ask CRA if any of your 2024 data was improperly shared.
Hi, I am a dual USA (passport holder) and Australian (passport holder ) citizen. Not entitled to SocSec due to just 2 years worked .in the USA. Been in Australia for over 50 years. Been working for NSW Health, Au, as an RN for 45 years.
Recently became compliant with Filing to IRS. I have a Super Annuation acct . Married to a UK citizen . Zero assets in the USA. Ive been “advised ” to consider Renouncing so that I don’t have to continue lodging to the IRS. Auckland NZ could be where I renounce (they have short waitlist). However, i may want to spend my retirement in the USA as an Aussie….but would need a Green Card. Also, I could “fail” the renouncement interview if they sense Im avoiding the tedious, costly, yearly IRS filing. Capital gains tax (on Sydney house) is my biggest fear !
@ Lou,
The renunciation appointment is not a probing interview. At most embassies/consulates (not sure if at all of them), you send in your forms in advance, and if they have any questions, they’ll ask you to clarify. They generally don’t have any.
It’s a person’s right to renounce, so all the vice-consul at the interview has to ascertain is that the person is competent, acting voluntarily, and that they understand the consequences of renunciation. Competence and voluntariness are presumed, unless a person’s statements or behaviour indicate otherwise. No one reporting here has reported that happening. Consequences are listed in form DS-4081, Statement of Understanding of Consequences, which is generally filled out and sent in in advance and always signed at the embassy/consulate. http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/department-of-state-forms-and-procedure-manuals-for-renouncingrelinquishing/
Regarding tax, the ability to renounce and the validity of one’s CLN is not dependent on tax compliance. One should by law, comply with the tax filing requirement, but some people choose not to and, to date, none have reported here having heard anything from IRS (can’t predict the future, of course, but so far, since 2011, no problems). This might be important, though, if you apply for a green card — I don’t know anything about that (hope someone else can weigh in on it). You are in the system, as you’ve filed US tax recently, but to date it seems IRS hasn’t been following up post-renunciation, although the they are notified of each CLN issued. Overseas collection, if the person is unwilling to comply, is a major hassle for them, so they tend to go after big fish who have the $$$ to make it worth it and ignore the minnows (just my observations as a layperson).
By law, one should file the 8854 and doing so clearly wraps things up with IRS, but some people’s fact sets are such that they feel it pretty irrelevant and they feel it would complicate their life more to do so, so they don’t. When it comes to filing, I always suggest a person read up, think about it/mull it over, and make the decision they feel most comfortable with. In either scenario, the CLN remains valid and the citizenship itself is terminated.
I made an information sheet with links to sources, entitled Interactions Between the Dept of State and the Internal Revenue Service. http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/renunciationrelinquishment-interactions-between-department-of-state-and-the-internal-revenue-service/
Also, you can read about people’s renunciation experiences in the Consulate Report Directory. http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/
It’s not at all clear what you mean. I imagine that if you want to retire to the US, it would be advantageous to keep your US citizenship. Have you thought this through. I assume you haven’t lived there for 50 years! It wont be the same place as when you left. Medical expenses alone could potentially cripple you financially.
If you were to renounce, there is no chance you could ‘fail’ the interview. My wife and son both renounced with no questions asked. ( The consuls know full well what’s going on). It’s a shame you became compliant if you renounce. You could have ignored all tax filing BS.
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Hello – I have a U.S. passport and have lived in Canada for 58 years (coming here as a toddler of 2 years old). I was a Landed Immigrant and Permanent Resident Status until 2018 when I finally got my Canadian Citizenship. I have never had a Social Security number, being a baby when I left the U.S. I have never lived in the U.S. since, nor attended school, or used any resources from the U.S. I have had one bank account since I was 17 years old and another as of 2012 where my mortgage for my condo is. I have never had any problems until recently I went on to my online banking with the account that holds my mortgage and a screen came up prompting me to update my account. One of the questions was, “Are you an American Citizen”. At that point I clicked on the prompt “update later”. I am not sure what to answer if that screen keeps coming up and at some point does not allow me to “update later”? Can I say “no” to that question?
My situation is somewhat similar to yours and I have answered “no” to that question several times at various institutions and have never heard anything further. The banks don’t really care and only ask because they are legally required to ask due to FATCA.
One thing our Canadian banks are not is tax detectives working for the US government. (The more usual form of the question is “Are you a tax resident of any other country?”) Once the question is asked and answered they have done their due diligence and are more than happy to get back to business as usual.
Obviously, if you answer “yes”, the next question will be to list your Social Security number which you don’t have and will lead to cascading additional problems. Who needs that complication?
Neither we (the customers) or they (the banks) asked for this. The easiest answer for both you and your bank is a simple “no”. You are a Canadian citizen living in Canada, period.
P.S.: Don’t ever use that US passport for ID at a Canadian financial institution. (Or anything else that shows a US birthplace.)
Thanks, maz57 – it is definitely my inclination to say “no”. My Canadian passport will list my birthplace as the U.S., so if I ever use my Canadian passport for anything, any official can check birthplace. I also have my U.S. birth certificate, which I don’t really use for anything, but if I am asked anywhere for my proof of birthplace, it is the only one I can produce. Hopefully the banks will not be foraying further as it does not work in their interests of time to follow up further. But, I am wondering about crossing the border either to the States or internationally. Will border crossings be alerting anyone when they see place of birth in my Canadian passport as U.S.A.?
Thanks for your responses…
Canadian banks seem to not be interested in birthplace. I don’t recall ever being asked. An ordinary driver’s license plus SIN has always done the trick for me.
According to US law, one must enter the US on a US passport if one is a US citizen. Also its illegal to leave the US without a US passport if you are a US citizen.
Having said that, I have entered the US many times using my Canadian passport with US birthplace. They’ve hassled me on occasion for not using a US passport, but they’ve always allowed me to proceed in the end. A US birthplace is a strong indicator of US citizenship but certainly not definitive proof. (Think of those who have renounced US citizenship plus its possible to be a US citizen without a US birthplace.)
Any time you cross a border your information will be entered into whatever system they are using. What they do with that info is anybody’s guess.
My travels were at land crossings traveling by car. I have read that things are much more strictly enforced when traveling by air but have no direct experience with that as I haven’t flown for many decades. In the case of air travel you are dealing with not only US Customs but airline officials (who are scared to death of US Customs) as well.
Shar. My wife was born in Florida. We have been visiting the US at least twice yearly for 55 years.
She always used her canadian passport. The border guys questioned why she didn’t use a US passport exactly 2 times. The last time was about 25 years ago. They are only worried about illegal immigrants and drugs.
Say no to the bank.
Thanks so much, everyone! I did not know that if you are a U.S. citizen, you have to use that passport even if you hold a passport for the country you reside in (if you no longer live in the U.S.). I am leaning towards saying “no” to the bank. I am not about to apply for a Social Security Number and then suddenly be on the IRS radar after 58 years of not?!
Also, I did get this feedback from John Richardson, but not sure it makes sense for me to do it (cost and having to file taxes for the past 5 years with the IRS and, of course, getting a SSN!):
Shar:
With a U.S. birthplace and as a U.S. citizen you will have this problem whenever you engage with a financial institution.
The only way for the problem of U.S. citizenship (or a U.S. place of birth) to go away is to renounce U.S. citizenship – which (given the description of your circumstances) you may want to consider.
Interestingly, the IRS as a fast track compliance program for people who match your circumstances.
Google:
“IRS Relief Procedures For Former Citizens”.
John Richardson
To be clear. Crossing the border with a Canadian passport and a US birth place has never been a problem at an airport. Did you have a US passport at some time?
As a Canadian living in Canada, the only way you will ever have a problem with the IRS is if you try to enter the IRS system. The US system is so complicated (they hate all things foreign) that there would undoubtedly be errors or omissions and then they will be off to the races with fines, penalties, and interest.
And God help you if you happen to own a Canadian mutual fund.
Don’t do it. Not having a Social Security Number means they don’t even know you exist. Just say no.
John Richardson is a bit of a hero around these parts. However, in your case, I believe he is quite wrong. Maz57 is correct. Just say no.
@Shar
John Richardson is a lawyer so he cannot advise you to (1) lie about your US citizenship to Canadian banks, and (2) not be in US tax compliance. Obviously the common-sense approach is to do exactly that. Lie to your bank, don’t get an SSN or file US tax returns.
You may wish to renounce for estate planning reasons, given your US birthplace. If you do, US tax compliance is not required. You can simply renounce and be done with it, and staple a copy of your CLN to your will (or whatever).
Renouncing U.S. citizenship costs $2,500 and seems to involve having to file your taxes for the past 5 years plus the current one you are renouncing in.
Is this correct?
I cannot afford to renounce my citizenship if it is….