Banking Issues
Please provide information or ask questions about Banking issues in this comment stream.
I will create sub-topic threads as the situation arises, keeping a copy of the comment that starts a legnthy specific discussion on the Banking Issues thread, so the Banking Issues thread will remain the main source for banking information and dicsusion. But sub-topic threads should help people easily find (or avoid, if it doesn’t interest them) detailed information and conversation on specific matters.
Sub-topic Threads:
Problems with Banks After Renunciation
Sorry, but no know where else to post this and partially on topic as it is a policy change of the US for sending and receiving funds. Just tried to cash an International Postal Money Order and leaned the following.
From JAPAN to the USA •
Until April 01, 2019
A money order is issued at a post office or a Japan Post Bank branch and handed to the sender on site.
After April 01, 2019
• Necessary information such as sender’s name and address is written by the sender. • A money order is issued at Tokyo Postal Savings Center and sent to the sender.
• Necessary information such as sender’s name and address is printed on the money order at Tokyo Postal Savings Center. (Unnecessary for the sender to fill in the money order)
• * Exchange rate is applied as of the application at a post office or Japan Post Bank branch
Issued at a later date after the Purchaser is called fir a revisit.
From the USA to JAPAN
Before April 01, 2019
A money order is cashed on site. • A money order is once kept at a post office or Japan Post Bank branch.
After April 01, 2019
• After confirmation by Tokyo Postal Savings Center, the payee is called for a revisit to the post office or Japan Post Bank branch.
• The money order is cashed upon payee’s revisit.
• * Exchange rate is applied as of the cash-out at a post office or Japan Post Bank branch
They think I’ll get the call to revisit before the end of the month. Today is the second.
This applies only to money orders to and from the US. US policy drives this.
Here is the first part of the notice.
“NOTICE
Change of handling procedures for International Postal Money Order to/from the United States of America
All Financial institutions are required to take appropriate measures to prevent money laundering and terrorism financing.
In this context, Japan Post Bank will change the handling procedures for International Postal Money Order to/from United States of America from 1st April 2019 as follows:
[Changes]
Outbound International Money Order from JAPAN to the USA
A money order will not be given to the sender at the point of acceptance of the amount and fee, but issued at Tokyo Postal Savings Center and sent at a later date to the sender.
*It will take 6 to 8 business days to deliver money orders.
Inbound International Money Order from the USA to JAPAN
A money order will be once kept and screened at Tokyo Postal Savings Center. At a later date, the money order will be cashed on a payee’s second visit to a post office or a Japan Post Bank branch.”
“It will cash the cheques of anyone who volunteers to pay up, and occasionally invents minor (and widely ignored) silliness like the streamlined program, but otherwise it is not a priority. Feel free to ignore.”
On the US Embassy Tokyo website it now states that the Japanese Post Office may or may not issue International Postal Money Orders to USCs. If not, how does one pay their taxes? How does one pay to renew their passport?
Last time I did a passport renewal I could use credit card or standard German bank transfer. I believe that the renunciation fee can be paid with credit card. I personally have no idea how one pays a tax bill from outside the US because that is information I will never need to know.
(Japan T.:) “On the US Embassy Tokyo website it now states that the Japanese Post Office may or may not issue International Postal Money Orders to USCs. If not, how does one pay their taxes?”
O, the irony!
Money orders are so retro. Crazy stuff, like buying postage stamps to send letters in the mail. Or making cassette tapes for your Walkman. Memories of my youth, I’m coming over all nostalgic.
Here endeth the off-topic sidetrack…
“(Japan T.:) “On the US Embassy Tokyo website it now states that the Japanese Post Office may or may not issue International Postal Money Orders to USCs. If not, how does one pay their taxes?”
O, the irony!”
Indeed.
“MODS: please consider moving Japan T’s extremely off-topic cascade of posts (wow, that didn’t take long, after Pacifica’s announcement yesterday) to where they belong, in the “Your experiences in Banking thread.” I really, really dream of the day when a post like this one about the GAO, which contains much food for discussion, can actually remain on topic. Cheers.”
Yes please do move them. Having experienced yet a new policy with negative effects for at least this one USC abroad, not being able to start a new thread, the options are limited. It being a new policy, any thread by definition with be off topic. The options then are to post in an off topic thread or keep silent about changes at the front. Personally, I lean towards letting many people find out for themselves but I believe there are others out there who could this information.
Here we go with topic drift.
I wonder where Japan T found the information about international postal money orders. I looked online earlier this year and couldn’t find any information at all. It was as if international postal money orders had ceased to exist.
However, the change that Japan T reports isn’t really terrible. Money orders being sent to countries other than the US never were issued on site. The buyer wrote information and paid at the post office but the post office used its own procedures to send the money order to the destination. This procedure was also available for money orders being sent to the US but I didn’t usually use it because there was a 500 yen discount to take the US money order in person from the post office at the time of buying it. I have a feeling Mr. T could do that too, i.e. he doesn’t really have to go back to the post office a second time to pick up the money order because he could just let the post office send it through the same procedures they use for other countries.
On the other hand, if I wanted to send a postal money order to Canada for C$10,000 or to Hong Kong for US$10,000 I only had to write the information once. When I sent a money order to the US for US$12,000, I had to write the information 18 times. The US Treasury is suspicious that the US Treasury is involved in money laundering, so they didn’t let a payer send a single money order to the US Treasury for an amount larger than US$700. That was how I paid my estimated taxes for 1999, when Japan gave preferential tax treatment to lump sum retirement pay but the US didn’t and I was a stupid idiotic complier with US taxes. Anyway, after reading reports by the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration, I have to agree with the US Treasury’s position that the US Treasury (IRS) is involved in money laundering.
Things got more difficult when the US Treasury sent a refund for my overpayment, when US Treasury regulations prohibited US banks from accepting the US Treasury’s cheque for deposit to my US account. Finally one US bank said they would accept the cheque illegally because I’d been a good customer for a long time, but they said they wouldn’t do it again.
Here we go with further topic drift…
In Japan if you want to pay for a US passport you can pay cash at the embassy. One time I paid for a visa for my wife by furikomi to an account that the US government had at a Japanese bank. One time I paid for a visa for my wife by credit card.
In the US, when I tried to make a payment to the IRS in cash, they refused. I was carrying twenty $100 Federal Reserve Notes straight from a bank in the US, along with an assortment of smaller notes and coins, in order to pay the exact amount of any reasonable calculation to be performed by the IRS using a near minimal number of notes and coins, but the IRS told me to go to a US post office and buy a postal money order. The US post office accepted thirteen of my $100 Federal Reserve Notes plus an additional $2.80 fee for issuing postal money orders. They issued one money order for $1000 and one for $300. I guess the US Treasury increased the limit per money order, but the US Treasury still suspects the US Treasury of being involved in money laundering and I have to agree that they are.
Meanwhile, Federal Reserve Notes say they’re legal tender for all debts public and private, and one time I found a US law saying so, though of course that wasn’t a tax law so I think it’s only valid in the US, such as the IRS office where I tendered them. But I couldn’t find any law saying what happens when the US government rejects legal tender. Try to pay your taxes (or in my case try to pay your penalty for having illegally written an honest declaration on a US tax return) and the IRS doesn’t accept it.
Now that’s what stupid idiots like me get for trying to comply.
If Japan T’s posts move to the banking experience thread, please move this too.
I went to the post office to cash an International Postal Money order as I have done countless times in the past, thought not recently.
I have to go back in, when called, to see IF I can in fact cash it and do so at that time or learn that I can not and leave with two uncashable IMO t send back and ponder how to get reimbursed for a purchase for a friend.
I got my information straight from the horses mouths, the two postal clerks taking care of me. Wanting more information, I googled it when I got home.
As far as sending money from Japan, depends on where in the US. Small bank in the middle of a corn field…no. But it’ll take you 6 to 8 weeks to get your money back.
But the zeros on the bridge care not for those of us fighting fires and flooding below decks, so I’m done.
Just thought I’d share the latest and greatest from one who lived it.
No doubt, this too is an fluke that affects only I.
I am not an accidental American. I was born in the USA and became a French citizen almost 30 years ago. I renounced my American citizenship almost ten years ago.
The problems are not just with Accidental Americans. At this writing there are banks in France which demand I sign American forms – in English – before they are willing to do business with me, even though I am a French and not an American citizen. This is unacceptable.
W-8, or W-9?
In the UK I get asked by banks to sign a W-8; which I don’t object to, because it certifies for the bank the fact that I want to certify: that I’m not a US Person for tax-withholding purposes.
If they asked me to sign a W-9 form I would flourish my expensive CLN at them.
@phyllis and eff
Many people who are no longer American and have a CLN on file object to signing W8 or W9 as they are American forms. A W8 should only need be signed if you have US sourced income. Some banks provide their own non US version of a W8 which I believe is more acceptable. These I believe are only kept on file in the bank for the bank’s protection.
If you are not an American and have no US sourced income, then why should you be made to sign a US form.
@ All,
The discussion on the specific issue of the W8 form has got quite long, so I created a new thread for W8 and W9 Discussion.
I’ve copied the three initial comments on W8s/W9s to the new W8/W9 thread and moved all further comments on that matter from here to that thread.
I will do this with future banking topics as the situation arises. You’ll be able to see the big picture on this thread. Discussions on particular topics will spin off onto a sub-topic thread.
This should enable people to access in-depth information and/or discussion on a banking sub-topic easily in one place and without scrolling through pages of comments on other banking issues.
Likewise, it should make the Banking Issues thread easier to scroll through and get an overview because, by copying (not moving) the first comment or comments, the sub-topic itself will remain on the Banking Issues thread, but with a lot less comments for people to scroll through if they’re not interested in a particular sub-topic.
If I may make a suggestion, mightn’t it be better just to have a topic about “banking issues for US citizens” and “banking issues for renunciants”?
There have been reports of banks refusing to accept citizens, even if the applicant self-certifies as a US citizen and signs a W-9; but there have been no reports (that I’m aware of) of banks refusing to accept former citizens who show a CLN and agree to comply with the terms and conditions which apply for applicants with US indicia (i.e. birthplace)
It’s quite an important distinction, for renunciants. It’s a pity to pay all that money to renounce and not feel able to make full use of the benefits it brings, due to confusion about what is required because of FATCA (i.e. the CLN) and what is required because of the remaining, unremovable US indicia (US place of birth).
Discussion of these issues might be useful for those renouncing – in fact it might be most useful as a sub-topic in the renouncing topic.
Thanks, Phyllis, I think that is a good idea and I’ve started a new page for it: Problems with Banking After Renunciation/Relinquishment.
I hope this main Banking Issues thread will serve as a jumping off point for sub-topic threads, so people can zero in on specific issues. I’ll be creating more sub-threads as the situation arises, and will probably be doing this with a couple of other ongoing informational threads. Our new “move comment” feature is a wonderful tool for this type of thing.
Great – thanks!
I just received a ‘ substitute’ W8Ben from a US bank in which I retained a small deposit account after leaving the US and giving up US citizenship some years ago.
The form asked me to state how many days I had been present in the US over the past 3 years and also defined the ‘substantial presence test’ with a statement that:
‘A person is considered a US resident for tax purposes if they are present in the US for a minimum of 31 days in the current year and a total of 183 days over the 3 year period .’
I also had to give my country tax id number, dob, citizenship, and copy of my passport.
This seems to me to have nothing to do with reporting the small amount of interest ( less than $10.00 ) that I receive to my resident country, but more to do with searching for people who could be deemed US residents for tax purposes for the IRS.
Beware those who spend any extended time in the USA.
I’ve created a sub-thread for Substitute W-8 forms. I’ve copied the first comment on the topic (directly above this one) to the new sub-thread and moved all replies to it.
Thanks, Pacifica777.
This seems to be quite a good system. Easy for questioners to find sub-threads that might answer their questions.
Thanks Pacifica
It’s hard to decide where to post, we have so many issues to discuss 🙂
Minor data point about an ING account in a large European country (the one that used to start major land wars).
Account opened pre-2014 with Canadian passport showing US birthplace (as a branchless internet bank I think the passport was only shown at the post office as part of an ID validation process, the bank did not receive a copy). Citizenship given as Canadian only. Local address registration required to open account. No issues.
Left country, returned to Canada, and changed address to a friend’s apartment, with “c/o” line because that’s how it works.
Last year, received a letter stating that I couldn’t have a “c/o” line as my address unless I supplied a copy of valid address registration, which of course I did not have. Ignored letter. (Reluctance less to do with CRS, given that I’m not hiding vast sums offshore, but rather past bad experience being charged exorbitant service charges and mailing fees for a foreign address.)
This year, a more urgent letter. Went online and changed the official address to Canada, with friend’s “c/o” address as secondary local mailing address.
Two weeks later a very large package of forms are sent to Canada, with a universal FATCA/CRS declaration plus a lot of stuff about tax and residency status in the country where the bank is located. Fairly complex. Versions in both English and said country’s language, with the usual declaration to be truthful under the signature field. The instructions, however, said that this could also be taken care of online.
Went online and found the section for foreign tax residency. Couldn’t be simpler. Canada was already filled in next to my name, all I needed to do was add my Social Insurance Number, no need to check off a bunch of other boxes about other tax and residency status, no extra mention of US citizenship or FATCA.
I’ve never seen ING throw a pop-up asking about US person status, or FATCA, or other tax residency. This was it.
So now I’m subject to CRS, should there ever be more than a few hundred euros in the account, but I expect that FATCA has been well and truly dodged. Even today it might be safe to open such an account using a non-US passport with US birthplace as long as there is no detailed passport inspection, but rather a quick check at the post office to validate customer identity.
Adding this copy of a recent post re CIBC (hope reposting is ok);
BB says
September 2, 2019 at 11:25 am
CIBC in Canada has started sending this letter out to its customers:
https://cdn.fbsbx.com/v/t59.2708-21/67788374_466911770757695_6867677436725690368_n.pdf/output.pdf?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQmbi2w-DKVs9DUcP8yyJm1Sk4KZoY1c2uhhi95K5ERyatzEz_XG1c8UbdIGDxPOMsE&_nc_ht=cdn.fbsbx.com&oh=94cc499413bddc444fb39e211a8ad431&oe=5D6F56E4&dl=1
…and threatening them with $500 CRA fines for not providing them with SSNs:
https://www.cibc.com/en/legal/common-reporting-standard.html
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/indigenous-girl-grandfather-handcuffed-bank-1.5419519?ref=hvper.com&utm_source=hvper.com&utm_medium=website
This grandfather’s experience is off-topic for US persons’ experiences in banking but it’s so outrageous that I’m going to post it here anyway. It made me think of our own NativeCanadian and all First Nations persons. It made me think this is EVERYONE’s potential problem these days. It’s not only about “commercial racial profiling”, it’s about the banks operating these days at such a ridiculously high level of alert that the most innocent of account records and transactions (especially those in cash), a client’s appearance, a client’s mannerisms, can place any person under suspicion and subject to reporting … in this case reporting even to the police. Some bank employees are virtually working in a hair-trigger mode and a person’s banking experience on any given day could actually depend on those bank employee’s mood that day. When the FATCA fiasco began I lost some of feeling of ease and trust I used to have when entering a bank. Imagine how this grandfather and his granddaughter feel.
There is an obituary in the Globe and Mail Death Notices of a prominent paediatric surgeon (worked at the Toronto Hospital for Sick Children for years) that makes public his US place of birth and the earlier part of this life (including some of his adulthood) in the USA.
This is not unusual. Over the last several years, I have seen a number of Globe obituaries that openly state the deceased person’s US place of birth. They are usually people in their 70’s, 80’s or 90’s who have lived in Canada for decades, sometimes since childhood. The family members who have written the obituary seem unaware or unconcerned about FATCA.
I think and wonder: did all of these deceased people know about FATCA and US citizenship taxation? Did they file US tax returns?
When the family member brings their death certificate (which lists place of birth) to their bank, what happens? Does FATCA reporting apply to the accounts of deceased persons?