John Richardson reports on the new DS-4079 form (which now includes the former DS-4080 (renunciation oath), DS-4081 (statement of understanding of consequences) and DS-4083 (certificate of loss of nationality form), along with other additions/changes. (reposted with permission)
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The “Readers Digest” Version
Towards the end of October of 2024, the following comment appeared online:
‘Just renounced in Rome this afternoon. Very smooth, professional, friendly. I was asked why by the consular officer but the office person who did all the work was extremely helpful and did not ask why I decided to do it. It should take 2-3 months to get my CLN. Maybe even less. One thing the office guy mentioned was that I was just in time to do the standard procedure, because it is soon going to change. He said that if now there are two forms to fill out, soon there will be 13 pages of forms to fill out “to better identify and determine certain particular situations”. Does anyone know anything about this? I am thinking ( hoping) that it may be to facilitate accidentals? Anyway, all done, I am FREE! (No emotions. I remembered the podcast where someone said “just think of it as retirement “’
(The “think of it as retirement podcast was actually a podcast I did called “The Retired Citizen“)
ffective November 1, 2024 a new procedure has been adopted for individuals seeking a Certificate Of Loss Of U.S. Nationality (“CLN”).
Generally, the new procedure:
– is based on a newly designed Form DS-4079 (the old one is obsolete) which has different sections for different kinds of expatriating acts. The parts of the form that you complete depend on the nature of the “expatriating” act upon which you rely;
– is better designed to probe whether the applicant’s facts meet the evidentiary standard (“preponderance of the evidence”) to establish the “voluntariness” and “intention to relinquish” which are required under IINA 349(a) and INA 349(b).;
– reflect that the burden of proof of establishing “voluntariness” and “intention” must be met by the individual (the days of presuming intention are over) – INA 349(b)
– clarify that the first interview need NOT take place in person (phone or email can work) but that the second interview MUST take place in person
– clarify that ALL individuals must (1) Complete the newly designed Form DS-4079 (a completely redesigned form) and and (2) what ORIGINAL documents must be presented at the relinquishment/renunciation interview
– appear to be moving toward a standardized process all around the world (up until October 31, 2024 different Consulates used different forms, etc.)
Generally the new process is described in the new DS-4079 which is available here:
Those wishing to renounce U.S. citizenship in Canada will be pleased to know that (after a lengthy absence) Quebec City and Halifax are renunciation options. In Canada one can renounce in: Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City and Halifax. Canada is surely the renunciation capital of the world!
Additional commentary
1. I will add more in the upcoming days. Until now few (if any) renunciation requests were refused. I predict that the new process will result in the first wave of individuals who cannot meet the evidentiary standard required on renunciation and relinquishment.
2. The new DS-4079 heightens the chance of inadmissibility after renunciation.
To be “FORMWarned” is to be “FOReArmed!”
As a “procedure wonk,” I do see a few positive changes in this form:
• It has separate sections for renunciants and relinquishers.
• The instructions are more detailed and more clearly presented.
• I find it efficient to put the former DS-4080 and DS-4081 in the new DS-4079.
So, technically, IMO, It’s a much clearer form, but I definitely share the concerns John Richardson writes of in his post.
A quick breakdown of the new 4079:
Note 1: Instruction pages are numbered 1-5. Numeration begins at 1 again for the 13 page form itself, which follows the instruction pages.
Note 2: An individual does not fill out all 13 pages. It is divided as follows:
Renunciants and Relinquishers
page 1 – top page 3
Renunciants
bottom page 3 – top page 4
Relinquishers – by Naturalisation (Immigration and Nationality Act, s. 349(a)(1))
Bottom page 4- Top page 5
Relinquishers – by Oath of Allegiance (for an oath not done in conjunction with naturalisation, armed forces participation or government employment)(INA, s. 349(a)(2))
Bottom page 5 –top page 6
Relinquishers – Armed forces (INA, s. 349(a)(3))
Bottom page 6 – top page 7
Relinquishers – Government employment (INA, s. 349(a)(4))
Bottom page 8 – top page 9
Renunciants and Relinquishers
Statement of Understanding Concerning Determination of Loss of US Nationality (replaces DS-4081)
Page 10 – top page 11
Statement of Voluntariness and intent to Relinquish US Nationality
Bottom page 11
Renunciants
Oath/Affirmation of Renunciation (replaces DS-4080)
Page 12
Renunciants and Relinquishers
Attestation to correctness and completeness
Page 13
Questions 11 (b) and (c) are pretty worrying and invasive, not to mention a bit vague:
11 (b) Describe any factors that may have influenced your decision to take the oath of renunciation.
11 (c) Describe whether you feel/felt pressured by any person and/or circumstance to take the oath of renunciation.
I also don’t understand what 12 is asking for:
12 Intent. What is your intent with respect to your U.S. nationality in taking the oath of renunciation?
What possible answers could be given here other than “to lose my nationality”!?
@ CoffeeBean
11 (b) reminds me of question 18(b) on the old DS-4079 (“Did you perform the act with the intent to relinquish US citizenship? Please explain your answer.”), where I said I had chosen to relinquish upon naturalising in Canada because I did not want to have or feel the commitment of allegiance to two countries at the same time nor have any conflicts that could arise from dual status.
Had I chosen to renounce after having naturalised, instead of relinquishing at the moment of naturalisation, (and had the form asked renunciants that question), those would have been the factors for my deciding to renounce. I made my decision that I would relinquish well before I’d completed the waiting period to get Canadian citizenship, but had it taken me a lot longer to be 100% sure of my feelings and take the leap upon naturalisation, I would have had to renounce, but those still would have been my factors. So, this question doesn’t particularly bother me.
The other two questions seem pretty useless/weird to me:
11(c), I’d just answer “I felt no pressure from any person or circumstance.” Seems like the only logical answer because if a person performs a relinquishing act (which includes renunciation) under pressure, it’s fails on the criteria of voluntariness. If someone were pressuring me and I didn’t want to renounce/relinquish, I wouldn’t fill out and file the forms, so IMO it’s a dumb question.
12. I agree with you — that question makes me go “duhhh???.” So your suggestion “To lose my nationality” is the only answer that makes sense to me.
What a cruel joke. They mention the “Paperwork Reduction Act” at the tail end of a 18 page form.
Glad I got out when I did. Even for a straight-up renunciation there’s more work involved.
I’m particularly baffled by “7(b) Rights/Benefits” because the question is worded in the present tense. A regular sort of person might currently hold a US passport, might have voted in the past, and might expect to collect retirement benefits in the future. Do they check yes for all three?
The old 4079 form had a question about filing tax returns in the context of continuing to act as US citizen after the purported relinquishing act – similar to voting or renewing a passport. I don’t see that anywhere in the new form.
Does anyone know what happens if you followed the old instructions to request a renunciation in Canada but did this BEFORE November 1st and are still waiting for a reply and appointment date?
@Waiting
You’ll be one of the first to find out.
@Ron
I will report back in when I get a response to my CLN appointment request. It’s been about 3 weeks since I sent in the forms based on the old instructions.
Maybe I will get lucky and Trump will rescind my citizenship as an anchor baby before I have to spend $2350 to do it myself.
Waiting. What is an anchor baby? Our general advice is that if you haven’t been filing, don’t start now.
@ Portland,
Anchor baby is a term used when a mother from another country goes to the US to give birth so that her child will be a US citizen. I think Waiting was being humourous, probably s/he’s a Accidental American (parent/s in the US on some permanent or working status visa) as that is much more common with Canadians than anchoring.
What’s the best way to answer 11 (b) as an “accidental american” – something like “I identify as a Canadian Citizen, and have been since birth, and thus do not want to feel the commitment of allegiance to two countries?”
That sounds good to me. I’m not an accidental; I naturalised here, but It’s very similar to what I wrote; that my life, as will my future, takes place entirely in Canada and I did not feel comfortable to have allegiance to two countries at the same time.
@Waiting for CLN Appointment
For your reference:
I used the old form last August to request an appointment in Calgary. When the new form was announced I prepared it and saved it until asked for it. Last week I was asked to submit the new form. A week later I got my appointment time.
No way of knowing, but my guess is that they requested the new form because I was approaching the front of the queue. 5.5 months wait for a Calgary appointment is similar to the recent reported average of 5 months for Vancouver (Douglas Cowgill).
@Got my CLN Appointment
Thanks for your comment. I decided to email and ask if I should fill out the new forms and got a reply back saying not to. This was in October. I am still waiting for an appointment.
To clarify, October was when I applied under the old forms. November was when I emailed to see if I needed to submit the new forms.
@Waiting for CLN Appointment:
Odds are they don’t want the new form until ready to process you.
The national email address asked me for the new form one week before I got an appointment. After that my consulate separately asked me for the new form again.
After waiting 5 months, I received a response to my request for a CLN appointment. I was instructed to fill out the new form 4079 first and then will be given an appointment date. So it seems I won’t have to wait too much longer.
A question for those who have been through the process: with regard to the identifying documentation that you are required to bring to the appointment (US passport, CDN passport, etc), do they keep it and return it to you later in the mail or do you take it home with you after the appointment?
From the above post by John Richardson:
“Additional commentary
1. I will add more in the upcoming days. Until now few (if any) renunciation requests were refused. I predict that the new process will result in the first wave of individuals who cannot meet the evidentiary standard required on renunciation and relinquishment.”
Wondering if Mr. Richardson (or anyone else) has anything to add regarding meeting the “evidentiary standard” that one must outline in section 1B 11(b) and 1B 12 of the new form 4079.
@Waiting for CLN Appointment,
Glad to hear that you’ve heard from the consulate.
You don’t need to provide evidence for 11(b) or 12; these questions concern what was/is inside your mind. (Evidence of intent comes into play with CLNs based on other relinquishing acts (eg, a person could naturalise in their new country with the intent to relinquish but they could naturalise with the intent to go forward acting as a dual citizen). With renunciation, the consulate officer can ascertain that the person has intent — you tell them in your form, and may be asked confirm it in person, before you perform the act.
For answers to Q, 11(b) and (12), I would put something like this:
11(b). My life takes place entirely in Canada as will my future.
12. Because the US no longer has a role in my life, I wish to be a citizen of only Canada.
(Some questions are worded a bit different, or are new, on the new 4079, but I used these lines in filling mine out some years ago – the question numbers were different then)
@Waiting for CLN Appointment
The only thing they kept was the US passport which was returned hole punched in the mailer with the CLN.
@Got my CLN Appointment and pacifica777
Thanks for the info.
Yay! I have my appointment. Was called and offered an appointment in a different city than the one I requested, but decided to take it because I was told that otherwise I might have to wait until the summer or fall (no promises) for an appointment even though I am top of the queue. I had originally requested Ottawa.
Off topic for this thread, but not sure where to put it. Has anyone noticed that notary services are no longer offered in the embassies/consolates? I want to obtain a long form birth certificate and must have the application form notarized by a US notary. Originally I had an appointment scheduled for November at the Ottawa embassy, but had to cancel. However there are no appointment slots in 2025 in Ottawa (nor any other nearby city) and was told that there will be none opened up in the forseeable future. What’s up with that? I wonder if it has anything to do with all the US government cutting of services which was another reason I jumped at the appointment in Montreal because who knows what will happen with appointment availability down the road.