Today (11/16/2017) the floor of the House passed the House tax reform bill. The earlier version is here .
Today also the Senate Finance committee passed the Senate tax reform bill. See link
Do not yet have the final versions of either bill but suspect that we are not helped in the bills. Will post here final versions when they become available.
Listen to the C-span clip found by BB in which Residence-based taxation is mentioned by Golding and Brady in the House tax bill debate — none of this however, appears to have been incorporated into the House or Senate bills passed on 11/16/2017
Republicans Overseas (RO) continues to press on, to make changes in the final tax package that will help us. The fight is not yet over, but it continues, right from the beginning, to be an uphill battle — and the odds don’t seem very good right now. RO says: “Again we need to focus on the Senate side since this fight is far from over.”
Personally, it makes no sense to me to blame Solomon and the handful of people at Republicans Overseas for trying to make a change and, so far, failing. Yesterday a friend reminded me that there was this Ismene, who kept telling her sister Antigone that it was pointless to even “try”: “…but you’re bound to fail…No sense in starting a hopeless task…Go then, if you are determined, to your folly, etc. etc.” Antigone responded: “When I have tried and failed, [then] I shall have failed.”
Eric,
Thanks for your thoughts on the consequence of the proposed tax reform legislation on small business corporations owned by US persons “overseas”.
I have asked Republicans Overseas (also on its FB page) to confirm whether Max Reed’s analysis is correct.
@plaxy
Thanks for the article.
I think you are wrong about gdpr not applying to government. Others agree: http://blog-idcuk.com/are-public-sector-organizations-exempt-from-gdpr-compliance-absolutely-not/
Alas, that applies to EU public sector bodies. But as I say, if FINCEN can be held subject to GDPR that would br great.
It applies to non-EU, too.They have to send a DPO, data protection officer to the EU then.
From article:
“The only specific derogation relating to public authorities is where these are from non-EU countries and would otherwise be required to maintain a representative in the EU (Article 27).”
And here’s the info I found to support my hypothesis that the US agencies need to have DPOs (from http://www.wordstream.com/blog/ws/2017/09/28/eu-gdpr?amp ):
“You may have a legal obligation to hire a Data Protection Officer (DPO) to ensure compliance with the GDPR. However, there are exceptions. You only have to hire a DPO if:
Your organization is a public authority (i.e. a company that exercises control over the maintenance of public infrastructure or has broad powers to regulate public property)
Your organization is engaged in large-scale systematic monitoring of user data
Your organization processes large volumes of personal user data”
I’m not sure how to interpret derogation. It can be an exemption or reduction. I’ve been searching online for ages and haven’t found exemptions for any US agencies or institutions. The UK, however, has one for the public sector – the Data Protection Bill . See https://diginomica.com/2017/10/25/british-government-exemptions-eus-gdpr-labeled-shameless/amp/
The EU can’t require FINCEN to send a DPO to the EU.
You could ask your MEP.
What an EU citizen could do, is decline to risk their data by sending it through the insecure FINCEN system. A very reasonable objection, I would say.
Max Reed is the ultimate optimist – he sees opportunity in everything the US government throws at us.
Article by Helen Burggraf, interviewing American Citizens Abroad folks:
http://www.internationalinvestment.net/products/us-expats-fingers-still-crossed-first-draft-tax-reform-bill-doesnt-address-overseas-individuals/
Eric, USCA, and all,
Republicans Overseas just responded to my request for clarity in the tax reform bill on the 12% tax on deferred earnings etc. for US persons having an incorporated business.
The text of the complicated bill is open to interpretation and RO has asked for clarity from the House W&M.
RO said to me:
“Republicans Overseas: Stephen Kish, Your comments were forwarded to a House Ways and Means Committee member’s office. His legislative counsel is looking into this. We will report once we receive their reply.”
Barbara: If all of this goes side-ways on us I am SO in favour of a Saint Lawrence Tea Party. THAT is the type of visible, news-worthy, action that we need in tandem with some form of renewed action on the UN Complaint. Great idea! Is our Ontarian contingent up for such a thing? Although it would be the highlight of my life thus far, sadly I know I would be unable to attend.
JC: Sorry! I just went back and saw that Barbara was replying to YOUR idea! It’s great and I hope it happens (if necessary …. I’m still hoping for good news next week!)
“Congress knows that is wrong and nonsensical to continue with citizenship-based taxation”
They’ve known it for 100 years. She forgot to say “But this time is different.”
JC found ACA’s response to the GOP bill.
George (and I) think this link should go as an update to this thread.
https://www.americansabroad.org/media/files/files/afcb36c8/GOP_Response_PR.pdf?platform=hootsuite
“The best hope for relatively well-protected duals and accidentals is that FATCA fades away and is mostly ignored, like FBARs in the past when compliance was rare. The IRS guidance about not really needing an SSN/TIN if the customer can’t or won’t provide one is an encouraging sign of the directions in which things might move.
Even in that case there is still plenty of work to be done, but rather than lobbying DC (pointless I imagine) one should focus on domestic lawsuits to strike down IGAs or ensure banking access, and above all on education: get the word out that non-compliance is a safe and viable strategy for most duals who discover their filing obligations.
Also telling off reporters every quarter when the dumb stories about renunciation appear. That’s worth doing.”
Glad it is duals only that we care about.
@Harrison
“in case they make it impossible to renounce”
I CASE they make impossible to renounce!?!? It already IS impossible for many of us.
@heidi
“@ FredB
Time for you to start singing La Marseillaise instead of the star spangled banner.”
Guess I should sing Kimigayo.
“Thousands of years of happy Reign be thine; Rule on, my Lord…”
@Mike
“You know, when ID cards are mentioned in this neck of the woods and there is a cry of outrage from one section who do not want their identity including place of birth recorded on national database and a plastic card, there is another section who cry “what have you got to be afraid of if you’ve done nothing wrong”?
The US government provides a perfect answer to that.”
True, but the USG and homelanders ask the same question, as do the non US persons here in Japan I try to warn of this. The “ What have you got to be afraid of if you’ve done nothing wrong?” arguement serms to have taken hold of much of the population of the planet.
@USC abroad
“It’s fairly obvious that:
1. Those who are not in U.S. tax compliance will NEVER come into compliance (unless for the narrow purpose of renunciation).
2. Those who are in compliance MUST renounce ASAP”
Except, of course, those of us you can do neither.
Ironic that a group of people who complain of not being heard continue to not hear a subset of their own group.
@Fred
“The tax on corporations reminds me of taxing capital gains on house sales. These are not things I would report on my returns since there is no way for the IRS to know if I sold a house abroad or if I incorporate my business.”
Depends on where you live.
@heidi
“@fredB
“There is no way for the IRS to know if I sold a house abroad or incorporate a business ”
If identified as a US person, your bank will report that large amount from your house sale as the maximum account value for that year.
It could be questioned if not included on your fbars.”
BINGO!
“My advice, (I know that this is hard to believe coming from me):
Renounce (right away) and rejoice!!!!!!!!
All roads lead to renunciation, and Bubblebustin:
You are at the end of the road!”
Ironic that a group of people who complain of not being heard continue to not hear a subset of their own group.
“Zla’od: tea is biodegradable”
So is crude oil.
@Mike
“There’s the hypocrisy, AGAIN. While the USA terrorises people around the world for taxes for services they don’t use, the USA refuses to pay the charges for the roads it DOES use. They sicken me.”
We took the kids to a farm theme park yesterday. In the parking lot was a car with US Gov. plates with “FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY” emblazzened across the bottom. Not sure what possible “official” use would involve a Saturday trip to a theme park. Took a picture of it with the name of the pack above and behind the car. US tax dollars at work.
“The best hope for relatively well-protected duals and accidentals is […]”
‘Glad it is duals only that we care about.’
And accidentals. Did you make a typo, or did you leave out accidentals because you don’t care about them?
Anyway, you would be a collateral beneficiary that no one cares about. I would be a none-of-the-above that no one cares about, except that the IRS cared enough to send me another notice[*].
‘I CASE they make impossible to renounce!?!? It already IS impossible for many of us.’
Sure you can’t afford the renunciation fee, but there are cheaper ways. A few decades ago I bought a shirt at Walmart’s Japanese subsidiary, made in North Korea. I haven’t worn it yet. If you buy it from me, you can report your treason to the US embassy and proceed to Japanese immigration to get your stateless person’s document.
‘We took the kids to a farm theme park yesterday. In the parking lot was a car with US Gov. plates with “FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY” emblazzened across the bottom. Not sure what possible “official” use would involve a Saturday trip to a theme park. Took a picture of it with the name of the pack above and behind the car. US tax dollars at work.’
They were mapping out the grassy knolls to make sure Trump doesn’t accompany Abe to one of them.
[* The IRS now sends sea mail from Estonia instead of from Germany or the UK, but the method remains reasonably calculated to take longer than the deadline stated for a reply and remains successful in that accomplishment. The IRS continues to instruct people to phone a number starting with 01-267. That would be a phone number in northern Japan but it’s not in service. Maybe the IRS thinks everyone lives in the US, in which case dialling starting with 01-267 would be used for a collect call to Botswana. Does the IRS really still have an office in Botswana?]
@ND
“Glad it is duals only that we care about.’
And accidentals. Did you make a typo, or did you leave out accidentals because you don’t care about them?”
Is that what you think, given the fact that my children are accidentals and that I have been arguing how this affects them? Context. Theses abd all comments here do not occur in a vacuum. There is a back story to each one.
Just wanted to avoid the comments stating that my accidental children have nothing to worry about.
‘We took the kids to a farm theme park yesterday. In the parking lot was a car with US Gov. plates with “FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY” emblazzened across the bottom. Not sure what possible “official” use would involve a Saturday trip to a theme park. Took a picture of it with the name of the pack above and behind the car. US tax dollars at work.’
They were mapping out the grassy knolls to make sure Trump doesn’t accompany Abe to one of them.”
LOL
Oh! And US born accidentials get plenty of attention here, deservedly so. Non-US born accidentials (and their parents) keep getting told that as long as they don’t identify themselves, that there is nothing to worry about.
“If you buy it [a North Korean tee-shirt] from me, you can report your treason to the US embassy and proceed to Japanese immigration to get your stateless person’s document.”
Strangely, although “treason” is listed as one of the grounds for loss of citizenship, no form or blank for that is offered by the US State Department.
I’ve bought something on Ebay from someone in Iran. Once my credit card transactions get reported, guess I’ll be in big trouble.
Strangely, although “treason” is listed as one of the grounds for loss of citizenship, no form or blank for that is offered by the US State Department.
Haha. If you believe they will take this North Korea TShirt buying as grounds for treason then you underestimate them. They will analyze your whole life, your financials etc just like they are doing for a renouncing person. In case of dual UK/Canadian person they will let you go fairly easy. But treason is something not easy to analyze and simply for buying TShirts is not a valid excuse for treason unless you are buying arms from them and supplying to other world markets. Even if US citizens are caught in arms smuggling they don’t take your citizenship away. Treason law was basically designed for Japanese Americans, German Americans and now Muslim Americans to take away their citizenship or set up internment camps (such as the one for Japanese Americans )for them during a crisis.
Technically not just treason. In 1954 they added rebellion, insurrection, seditious conspiracy when committed in a place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, and violation of the Smith Act (advocating overthrow of the US government by force, or conspiring to advocate that) as also causing loss of citizenship
https://www.jstor.org/stable/794190
Two problems:
1. You have to get convicted. Unless you want to go over there and stand trial, that means you have to goad the US just enough that they’ll prosecute you in absentia, but not so much that they’ll demand your extradition or send hired thugs to pull a Sidney Jaffe on you.
2. Like domestic renunciation before the Attorney-General (1481(a)(6), the one that was aimed at folks enjoying their getaway at scenic Tule Lake), relinquishment by treason, etc. doesn’t establish an 26 USC 877A(g)(4) expatriation date for tax purposes and so the person does not “cease to be treated as a citizen” under 26 USC 7701(a)(50)
Ahwa, you’re ruining all the fun.
@Japan T
I have been reading your comments for years and years. I have never been clear on whether you either are or have attempted U.S. tax compliance. My comment is/was focused on those who ARE in U.S. tax compliance. It’s the fact of being in compliance that leads to the need to renounce. If you are not in compliance then you may be able to remain an American.
On the issue of the citizenship of your children, they were born in Japan. Not sure why you think they are U.S. citizens (but we have had this discussion many times). Who or what has tried to impose U.S. citizenship on your children?
I think I understand that you cannot (or are having difficulty) getting Japanese citizenship and I agree that is a serious problem. But, I don’t quite see how that forces you into U.S. tax compliance if you are not. Is the Government of Japan forcing you into U.S. tax compliance? Has a Japanese bank sent you a FATCA letter? Has the IRS been in contact with you?
I certainly agree that the fact of ONLY U.S. citizenship creates hurdles that “dual citizens” do not have. But, those who are “covered expatriates” have problems that other people don’t have. Those who entered the “disclosure programs” have problems that others don’t have. Those who have significant assets in the USA have problems others don’t have. Those with small business corporations have problems others don’t have, etc. …
There is NO painless way of living as a “U.S. Person” outside the USA. It is painful for ALL, but especially for those who are in the U.S. tax system. The pain increases exponentially for those who are BOTH in the U.S. tax system and have ASSETS AND were NOT dual citizens from birth. So, even the fact of dual citizenship will not save a lot of people.
There is NO way for a “U.S. birthplace” to go away. There is no way (short of renunciation) for the problem to go away – and even then it won’t. But, you can control the way you respond to this. You can make decisions about yourself and about your family members. Strongly suggest that you focus on the things you can control and not the things you cannot control.
@Japan T
Could you explain please why your “non-US. born” children are accidental Americans?