Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

Posted on by Posted in Issues regarding US persons abroad, Law & Morality 84 Comments

Many thanks @Embee for providing the link to the spectacle in her comments here and here. The latter comment included:

A message from Jus de Fruit on American Expatriates FB:

So no need for a summary of the audition seeing as a filmed version will be available soon. Suffice to say that things went as well as we could hope.

In the morning I met with an MEP who will be travelling with the next ECON delegation to the US. He was not aware of the issues. He is now. He agreed to find a slot in the itinerary to raise the issue of Accidental Americans with the relevant US Authorities.

The presentation of the petition went well. Followed Tim Smyth’s advice and tried to put the Commission in a corner. Seems Sophie Int Veld is on the same wave length. The Commission in Sophie’s words sent messengers to be shot. Personally I took the fact that three different teams from the Commission were represented as a badge of honour. They simply don’t know what to do with us! Ok got a bit belligerent with one of them, offering to step outside (not to fight but to witness me failing to get an account at BNP Fortis).

Various MEPs approached me after the meeting for more details. I am back at the EP tomorrow to meet more MEPs and their assistants.

We live to fight another round!

I encourage all of you to take the time to watch this video starting at the 1 hour 21 minute mark.

The video features:

– two very spirited presentations (the first by the petitioner “JR”) and the second by Sophie int Veld.

– three pathetic responses from “the three representatives” of the “teams of the commissions” sent by their “bosses” to respond to the petition. I mean really, how stupid can these people actually be? The responses can be basically summarized as: what? This is the first I have heard of this? If any of this is really true, then please file a report. No suggestions that they understood the pure evil of “taxation-based citizenship. No, more like: “See no evil. Hear no evil. Speak no evil.”

Europe is obviously home to millions and millions of unfortunate “souls” who are considered not only:

1. U.S. tax slaves (recent discussion on whether “slave” is an appropriate term here – perhaps “prisoner” is a better term); but

2. Nodes to siphon European capital out of Europe to the U.S. Treasury for “better use”.

My thoughts on this video were a combination of empathy for “JR” the petitioner, respect for Ms. int Veld, embarrassment for the stupidity of the “technocrats” (sent to be the “messengers”) and a sense that (as was so aptly demonstrated by Ms. int Veld) that political institutions don’t operate for the benefit of their citizens.

On the point of “not operating for the benefit of their citizens”, this explains small events like:

– the election of Donald Trump (whether you like him or not) a president with far more democratic legitimacy than any president who was the representative of a political party (although not popular he was NOT the choice of any political party)

– the U.K. vote to exit the EU

In any event …

These “slaves” (or at least “prisoners”) are NOT going to be set free by the politicians. It’s painfully obvious the the EU doesn’t care in the least about its citizens who are claimed as U.S. property. They are quite happy to simply “turn them over”.

It’s also very obvious that the United States of America – that “Great Citadel of Freedom and Justice” – also knows exactly what its doing. As the petitioner makes clear in the video, the United States has “weaponized nationality” and is using that weapon against any country whose residents include those who the USA deems to be its’ property citizens.

Interestingly the petitioner (“JR”) talks about the costs of “buying his freedom” (compliance costs, etc.) Rather than “buying his freedom”, perhaps he (and others like him) should simply “declare their freedom” rather than buy it. Although there are “tax consequences to renouncing U.S. citizenship”, there is NO requirement – “Go ahead make my day” – of tax compliance to renounce U.S. citizenship.

Although, at the present time, “All Roads Lead To Renunciation“, one wonders whether renunciation will continue to be an option at all.

Seriously, the whole situation is ridiculous. As I have written many times:

All Homelanders need to see what is in store for them is to watch how the U.S. treats its citizens outside the USA!

Donald Trump wants to build that wall. Ron Paul famously noted that walls could be used to “keep people in”.

The USA doesn’t need a physical wall to “keep people in”. FATCA, FBAR, CBT, PFIC, CFC and the “alphabet soup” list of indignities inflicted on Americans abroad are a wall.

Have you ever seen the “invisible fence” used to keep the dog in the yard?

Congratulations to the petitioner and to Ms. int Veld for a a fantastic job.

Looking forward …

Tax reform (in some form) will be taking place in the USA.

The USA is well aware of the problems of CBT and FATCA.

The only reason for the USA to continue CBT is to transfer the capital of other nations to the USA (Boris Johnson style).

The only reason to continue FATCA and NOT join the CRS is to enhance the USA as the world’s premier Tax Haven – “Tax Haven USA“.

If you believe in and/or admire the USA’s status as the world’s number one tax haven, then why not:

Like Tax Haven USA on Facebook!

In other words, the failure to change will be intentional and willful with respect to the effects on other nations and their citizen/residents.

It’s like this:

You are either against the “weaponization of nationality” or you are with the Americans!

84 thoughts on “Refreshing: @SophieintVeld calls EU answer to plight of #AccidentalAmericans “bullshit””

  3. I noticed that the Chair of the Committee showed in her facial expression that JR and Sophie had captured her attention and she subsequently decided that further action would be needed. A plenary debate sounds like a good idea to me.

  4. Sophie in’t Veld has been in our corner since 2012 and has been fighting like a pitbull ever since when it comes to defeating FATCA and its extraterritorial implications.

    As I commented on the video:

    Such an eloquent summation of what is happening to Accidental Americans with this arrogant extra-territorial law. Thank you, J.R. for summing up the FATCA arrogance so well.

    And BRAVO…Sophie In’t Veld for going up one side of the bureaucrats and down the other side and for calling the Commission’s prevarications exactly what it was…]BULLSHIT.

  5. LOVE Sophie! LOVE LOVE LOVE her!!! She says it like it is and that with powerful words. YES! It is all BULLSHIT. And it has been going on for years- and people are turning a blind eye for years.

  8. Good girl Sophie. I am very happy that you are about the only one who has the guts to call a spade a spade.
    Yes, fire the European Commission and get people who are willing to defend the rights of those who are affected by FATCA.

  9. I am told the next steps are that the coordinators of each political group in the EP will go back to their respective groups and canvass the possibility of taking the petition to a plenary session of Parliament. Judging by the feedback after the audition things are on the right track. The socialists are on boards and various other groups representatives seemed shocked, transfixed and angered all in one contradictory bundle of emotions. If the plenary session happens then the Commission will have to send senior representatives and address issues with substantive responses. Sophie has got all ALDE MEPs behind the cause.

  10. Watched the video a second time today. The time has come to RETIRE the term “Accidental American”. The tern suggests that the petitioner “JR” and others like him are “Americans” of any kind at all. He is NOT an American of any kind and neither is a single person who was born in the USA, left the USA as a child, and has never held himself out as a U.S. citizen. He is a “carbon life form” who is simply being claimed by the United States as U.S. property. Nothing more and nothing less.

    What FATCA is about is:

    FATCA is about the United States unlawfully laying claim to the citizen/residents of other nations as “tax slaves” and as “weapons”, to attack the economies of other nations, by extending its tax base into other nations. The simple “FATCA Of The Matter” is that, for the U.S. to claim that a citizen and resident of another nation, is a U.S. citizen (against that person’s will), has evolved into an “Act of War” against that nation – what the petitioner calls the “weaponization of nationality”. For the USA to call a citizen/resident of another nation a U.S. citizen is to say to that nation:

    That “carbon life form” is our property and we will use our property as a way to extract rents from your economy. (If you use OUR property you must pay us rent.)

    It seems to me that countries around the world must do the following:

    1. Protect their own citizens from the United States. It’s quite simple really. They should simply say:

    So, sorry but “JR” is a resident of our nation and a citizen of our nation. The USA is free to call him anything they want when he is in the USA, but when he is in our nation he is to be treated as a citizen of our nation and accorded all the rights to which citizens of our nation are afforded. We do understand that Americans do NOT have rights (because this is necessary to preserve their American freedoms), but in our nation our citizens have rights and they have equal rights. For example: As Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of Canada has said – “A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian“ (Of course Justin means only “certain Canadians” are really Canadians, but I digress ….)

    We (nations of the world) have no opinion, with respect to those Americans, who are in our country, but are not citizens of our nation (the “Homelanders Abroad” type). But our citizens have the full rights of citizenship when in our nation.

    We will NOT allow them to be treated as your “property”, when they are living as citizens on “our property!”

    We know, that for Americans, the concept of human “rights” is “very deep”, but trust us, “human rights” can exist.

    Countries simply cannot allow the United States to claim their citizens as U.S. citizens!

    Bottom line: Under no circumstances can the USA be permitted to claim the citizens of other nations (residing in those nations) as U.S. citizens when they are resident in our country.

    2. If these European (and other) countries are NOT willing to defend the rights of THEIR citizens, then they should simply agree, that they are nothing but U.S. property and deport (return) them to the United States.

    The battle cry should become:

    “Defend or deport”.

  11. Adding to the previous comment:

    There is a continual focus on:

    “Are you or have you ever been a U.S. citizen?”

    That’s fine, but the focus needs to change to:

    “Who may determine the citizenship of an individual? How is that citizenship to be determined? Under what circumstances can a citizen and resident of country A, be claimed as a citizen of country B”

    To date, the world has deferred to U.S. law to answer the question of whether someone is a “U.S. citizen”. I believe that is the wrong question. It leads to absurd results and it allows U.S. lawyers to effectively impose unwanted U.S. citizenship on people with no U.S. connection. The question is whether Country A has to accept a citizenship claim by Country B with respect to a citizen/resident of country A.

    (The idea that the USA can impose citizenship on a person born outside the USA is laughable. Yet, U.S. lawyers swear it is true. To say that the USA can impose U.S. citizenship on a person born outside the USA is to say that the USA can use any person of USC parents as a weapon against the economy of another nation.)

    The narrow question in a new FATCA world should be:

    Can a second country decide the citizenship of a person who is a citizen/resident of a another country? Interestingly the United States is, in certain circumstances, willing to apply its own legal standards, to determine whether someone is or is not a citizen of another country.

    See:

    Non-U.S. countries should be using their legal standards to decide whether a citizen/resident of their country is a "U.S. person" for #FATCA https://t.co/npY2jmXk7S— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) July 13, 2017

    In addition, although not determinative of the question, the following information from the State Department is interesting:

    Dual Nationality

    Section 101(a)(22) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) states that “the term ‘national of the United States’ means (A) a citizen of the United States, or (B) a person who, though not a citizen of the United States, owes permanent allegiance to the United States.” Therefore, U.S. citizens are also U.S. nationals. Non-citizen nationality status refers only individuals who were born either in American Samoa or on Swains Island to parents who are not citizens of the United States. The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a national of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own nationality laws based on its own policy. Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. national parents may be both a U.S. national and a national of the country of birth.

    A U.S. national may acquire foreign nationality by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. national may not lose the nationality of the country of birth. U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one nationality or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another nationality does not risk losing U.S. nationality. However, a person who acquires a foreign nationality by applying for it may lose U.S. nationality. In order to lose U.S. nationality, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign nationality voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. nationality.

    Intent can be shown by the person’s statements or conduct. The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. nationals may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist nationals abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person’s allegiance.

    However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there. Most U.S. nationals, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. nationality. Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose nationality.

    Information on losing foreign nationality can be obtained from the foreign country’s embassy and consulates in the United States. Americans can renounce U.S. nationality in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad.

  12. WOWWWWW!!!! Yay, JR and Sophie!!!!! Way to go!!!!! The video needs to go viral. Let’s start linking to it in everything we send!

    USC Abroad: “The USA is free to call him anything they want when he is in the USA, but when he is [in] our nation he is to be treated as a citizen of our nation and accorded all the rights to which citizens or our nation are afforded.” This is pretty much exactly what a US consular official said to me years ago. And, by extension, the US simply has NO RIGHT to impose CBT on us “foreign” residents via FATCA because while we live and breathe on “foreign” soil we are NOT American!

  13. So far, European countries have been telling their citizens: “Well, we are aware of this issue. But your problem is with the USA. Fix it with them.”

    They really don’t care about their citizens. You can clearly see it through the speech of the representatives, they are completely out of reality.

  14. I know I keep repeating myself but we can only win this globally by playing with the public opinion. Today, only “political correctness” counts and paying lots of taxes to everybody who wants them is extremely politically correct, as is being completely transparent on anything to do with financial transactions so every time we complain about FATCA and CBT we are playing against public opinion.

    Fortunately, the USA is doing something extremely incorrect, which is to keep us in slavery. We should not be afraid of the word. It can be argued that governments remain and have always been able to own their citizens/subjects (conscription, jail..) but it is certainly not politically correct in this day and age. Nobody will argue with us that being a slave is right. Let’s say it to the World:

    I am a slave.

    Due to the circumstances of my birth, the last feudal state on earth is claiming me as their property.
    I have to work for them until I die, then my children will work for them.
    The only escape is to buy my freedom, at an unaffordable price.
    Instead of protecting me, my own country is helping them.

    Citizenship Based Taxation by the United States of America is Slavery!
    There is no place for slavery in the 21st Century.

    For the good people of AAA (and the Quebecois among us..):

    Je suis un esclave.

    De par ma naissance, le dernier état féodal de la planète me considère sa propriété.
    Je dois travailler pour eux jusqu’à ma mort, puis ce sera le tour de mes enfants.
    La seule solution offerte est d’acheter ma liberté. Le prix est exorbitant.
    Au lieu de me protéger, mon pays les aide à me persécuter.

    La Taxation Basée sur la Citoyenneté par les Etats Unis d’Amérique est de l’esclavage!
    Il n’y a pas de place pour l’esclavage au 21ème siècle.

  15. There should be no distinction between “accidental” and “real” Americans when it comes to taxation: for ALL Americans abroad the citizenship-based-taxation by the IRS should be abolished. It is time for the IRS to adopt resident-based-taxation like all civilized countries and to stop being a global bully.

  16. @Willy
    Hear hear! True words. Sophie has been of this mind for a long time and not just since “accidental Americans” have been added to the voices of the exploited. What she expounds is that Europe is sovereign and not an extension America. They keep using the term “extraterritorial laws” for a reason. America is imposing its laws extraterritorially and using them in foreign nations- and this has to STOP.

  17. @ Jus de Fruit
    “If the plenary session happens then the Commission will have to send senior representatives and address issues with substantive responses.”
    I had to look up the meaning of plenary yesterday and when I did I realized that this is indeed a very good thing. Instead of the messengers that Sophie delicately tried not to shoot, the masters of the messengers would have to try to justify the EU’s kowtowing to America on the matter of FATCA and US extraterritorial taxation. Logic says they cannot justify it but as Sophie says politics seems to wrongly override protecting citizens. Sophie knows what the EU Commission SHOULD be there for and I applaud her for laying it out so emphatically. This video shows us what can be done when the right petitioner and the right MEP team up to set the wheels in motion to right a very obvious wrong. It’s inspirational. Merci, Jus de Fruit. Dank je, Sophie in’t Veld.

  18. While you guys are upset about FATCA, nowadays people of the world are going nuts about CRS issues particularly if you are living in different countries.
    http://www.finews.com/news/english-news/28073-automatic-exchange-of-information-drazen-turujlija-bank-reyl-oecd-aeoi-loopholes-residency-offshore.

    Yes US govt started one big nightmare and got OECD on board who was trying to pass a world wide law like this for years and could not have got it done without US govt on steroids with FATCA and then GATCA(CRS) followed.

  19. Accidental Americanism is a good way to approach this. But I think that ithe problem applies to all dual EU-US citizens, I think as an EU citizen in the EU I should have full EU rights, even if I am also a US citizen (and not an accidental one).
    Re Harrison: recently I ignored my Belgian bank’s demands for information on countries that may consider me a tax resident. I reside in Belgium so decided to ignore this. Now they wrote me and said that since I had not answered they would forward my info to … (and here I was expecting something about my US personhood) … France. So they have just forwarded a list of 7 zero-sum (I happen to be perpetually in the red) accounts to France, for some reason. I left France in 1986 so this just goes to show how chaotic CRS is going to be. France will get completely useless info on me.

  20. @Fred(B) yes France will get useless info but they will most definitely ask you to prove through detailed paperwork that you are not liable for any taxes in France while you were there. The world is getting chaotic day by day it seems. We have more laws being written and enforced than anytime in the entire history of mankind. I was living in US seven years ago. I never knew FATCA or offshore accounts reporting as I had none. Moved overseas and all this mess started.

  21. and JR said that a well known American tax lawyer said to him that the bottom line is that these expats are too lucrative for America and they have nobody to defend them. So then- Europe et al need to be the ones to defend them because America sure isn’t going to lift a finger. This has been long overdue!

  22. @Polly I don’t agree with that as it would assume that the U.S. Government is aware of the situation which I kind of think they are not and they don’t care. I don’t think that the USG thinks there is a lot of money in accidentals as their mindset is fatcat tax cheats they think they will get.

    Also J.R. referenced some Democrats/Democrats Abroad platform plank about accidentals which I have not seen.

  23. @JC
    He quoted some big shot lawyer who said this. I think that America IS aware ( not the regular midwestern Joe but those in authority) and also that expats do represent a source of income – if not in wealth of a rich person, then in numbers which add up. And it is true that even if your regular Joe in America WAS informed of the plight of expats suffering by FATCA and CBT – they honestly don`t care. They make excuses and find rationalisation to explain how expats owe their “fair share” which has no basis in fairness. So it is true that the government in America is not defending or protecting its victims of FATCA, just as little as Europe is protecting its “accidental Americans” in the video. It is why we repeatedly have to voice our suffering and reach out to them to finally DO something to protect people.

Leave a comment

Your email address will not be published.

%d bloggers like this: