MAJOR Support 4 #RepealFATCA #Americansabroad thnx 2 @RepealFatca @nigeljgreen @GroverNorquist @CFandP @AmerComm https://t.co/BnuZfY0kSM
— Patricia Moon (@nobledreamer16) March 21, 2017
Came across this today: Ways & Means committee members letter
I do not have permission to reproduce in full but here are a few excerpts:
Dear Speaker Ryan, Majority Leader McConnell, Rep. Brady, and Sen. Hatch:
As free-market and taxpayer protection organizations representing millions of Americans,
we urge that repeal of the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA)—a plank in the
2016 Republican Party Platform—be included in any tax reform package sent to the
White House.
Since FATCA’s introduction, Americans living overseas have lost access to their banking
and investment accounts as foreign financial institutions drop clients rightly perceived as
toxic. This has not only impacted the welfare of the estimated nine million Americans
who live and work abroad but hampers small businesses owned and operated by
Americans attempting to compete internationally
FATCA repeal bills will soon be introduced in the House and Senate. We urge the
leadership and committees of jurisdiction to include this vital correction of misguided
enactment of the past administration by including it in any forthcoming tax bill
There is a list of 24 individuals/organizations. I ask any Tweeps to RT like mad to show our appreciation for what they are doing. PERFECT timing for the Rally tomorrow! Perhaps someone could put together an email list for those who do not Tweet.
@RepealFatca
@nigeljgreen
@GroverNorquist
@CFandP
@AmerComm
@RSI
@MarketInstitute
@ismurray
@Andrew_Langer
@limittaxesorg
@C4Liberty
@Lisabnelson
@Protectaxpayers
@NTU
@GLandrith
@60PlusAssoc
@SovereignInvest
@LimitGovt
@FreedomWorks
@tgiovanetti
@KarenKerrigan
I could not find an address I could confirm for either these individuals or orgs:
Jeffrey Mazzella President Center for Individual Freedom
Chuck Muth President Citizen Outreach
Pamela Villarreal National Center for Policy Analysis
Andrew F. Quinlan President Center for Freedom and Prosperity
Grover Norquist President Americans for Tax Reform
Phil Kerpen President American Commitment @AmerComm
Iain Murray Vice President Competitive Enterprise Institute
Andrew Moylan Executive Director R Street Institute
Charles Sauer President The Market Institute
Jeffrey Mazzella President Center for Individual Freedom
Nigel Green and Jim Jatras Co-Leaders Campaign to Repeal FATCA
Pete Sepp President National Taxpayers Union
David Williams President Taxpayers Protection Alliance
George Landrith President and CEO Frontiers of Freedom
Jim Martin Chairman 60 Plus Association
Wayne T. Brough Chief Economist and VP for Research FreedomWorks
Bob Bauman Chairman Sovereign Society Freedom Alliance
Andrew Langer President Institute for Liberty
Lew Uhler President The National Tax Limitation Committee
Chuck Muth President Citizen Outreach
Norman Singleton President Campaign for Liberty
Lisa B. Nelson CEO Jeffersonian Project
Tom Giovanetti President Institute for Policy Innovation
Rick Manning President Americans for Limited Government
Pamela Villarreal Senior Fellow National Center for Policy Analysis
Karen Kerrigan President and CEO Small Business and Entrepreneurship Council
@iota
I don’t know of any other FATCA prosecutions do you? Just what is the IRS doing with all that information? I haven’t heard of one person getting a letter from the IRS as a result of FATCA.
Re finding US persons, there is the fact that all new account openers will be asked whether or not they are a US person.
@iota
“Is there a known instance of the IRS bringing a case against a non-US-resident USC for not filing FBARs or tax returns?”
The Pomerantz case, which we’ve discussed at length this week, is a case of a non-US resident being sued for not filing FBARs. It’s complicated though in that he was a part-time US resident, and it all pre-dates FATCA, but it fits those basic criteria.
It also demonstrates the difficulties the US faces enforcing these laws outside the country – they filed the suit in Seattle and seem unable to even serve papers. Obviously they’ll have no luck collecting penalties if there are no US assets to seize. Mr. Pomerantz likely won’t be planning to use his US passport anyway so that’s not much of a threat.
“I don’t know of any other FATCA prosecutions do you? Just what is the IRS doing with all that information? I haven’t heard of one person getting a letter from the IRS as a result of FATCA.”
There’s no point writing individually to non-filers whose accounts get reported by FATCA. The IRS has no way of knowing whether the individual even realizes they have an obligation to file – or, indeed, whether they do have an obligation to file.
Most non-filers, including those who are FATCA-reportable, owe no US tax or very little tax. Not enough to justify the costs of pursuing them.
FATCA (a) scares people into complying or renouncing; (b) may help to secure convictions in criminal cases; (c) may come in handy for proving “covered expatriate” status; and (d) shoos money to US tax havens – the only ones left which can still confidently promise secrecy. But it doesn’t help with the enforcement of CBT. Most people still don’t file.
“It also demonstrates the difficulties the US faces enforcing these laws outside the country – they filed the suit in Seattle and seem unable to even serve papers.”
Exactly.
The difficulties of extraterritorial enforcement are presumably the reason most countries don’t bother. Absolutely typical of America to be the exception that proves the rule.
@Iota, “FATCA (a) scares people into complying or renouncing; (b) may help to secure convictions in criminal cases; (c) may come in handy for proving “covered expatriate” status; and (d) shoos money to US tax havens – the only ones left which can still confidently promise secrecy. But it doesn’t help with the enforcement of CBT. Most people still don’t file.”
Your succinct observation is worthy of an accolade.
Will treasury persue a run of the mill non-resident dual national who has 200,000 in an ISA, 50,000 in premium bonds and a stakeholder pension they can not touch for ten years that has an implied value of 150,000.
“Will treasury persue a run of the mill non-resident dual national who has 200,000 in an ISA, 50,000 in premium bonds and a stakeholder pension they can not touch for ten years that has an implied value of 150,000.”
Presumably, not unless they think the game is worth the candle. Renunciation is the best guarantee, IMO.
Northern Shrike, Patricia Moon, Polly: Thanks very much for your kind words and support. I know the life insurance agent was congratulating me on having the CLNs, but until I showed him he was very interested in learning about our US birthplaces. After seeing my CLN he offered to help with any FATCA or US financial issues that might come up, as well as offering to help me handle the insurance proceeds and my general finances, even after I told him that I have a financial advisor. She said she’d heard the same thing from other clients about insurance agents wanting to manage their finances. He seemed sleazy; I wasn’t expecting to have to discuss citizenship with an agent of an insurance agent, but this reminded me of all the non-banks that are also “financial institutions”. I still have to fill out forms about this transition in my life, and it’s still hard.
My CLN is not pre-dated. In the top right of the form is a block “For Department Use Only, Certificate of Loss of Nationality, Approved on 7/29/(illegible scrawl which probably says 2014), By Overseas Citizen Services. I received the CLN in early December, 2015.
The body of the form was certified by the Consulate General of the US at Calgary, saying that to the best of his knowledge and belief, I (my name) was born at (my birth place and date) etc.,That I acquired the nationality of Canada by virtue of my naturalization in Canada on ( month, day, 1974), that I naturalized in Canada on (date of naturalization in 1974) with the intent to relinquish United States citizenship, that I expatriated myself on (date of naturalization) under the provisions of Section INA 340 (a) (1) of (The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 as amended), …Statement of Voluntary Relinquishment signed on March–, 2014, in testimony he has- day of March 2014 signed and affixed his seal on the –day of March 2014. So it includes three dates; the date the CLN was approved, the date of my expatriating act, and the date of the Statement of Voluntary Relinquishment signed in Calgary. I consider the date that I voluntarily expatriated myself to be the relevant date and no one has questioned it. I haven’t been asked for it by my bank, and I doubt it will be, from me or my heirs, if any, since there isn’t a huge amount of money involved.
@Queenston,
Your CLN _is_ back-dated, and reads as expected, just like mine and I believe everyone else’s who received a “back-dated” CLN. The key is in this part:
My condolences for your loss, Queenston. Thank you for this discussion you have initiated re your insurance company *foreign financial institution* actions and, then further, the issue of what potental harms we put onto our estate executors, be they trust companies as mine will be on behalf of my son with a developmental disability, or an individual’s family member or friend we would not wish to put into harm’s way. I have finally pinned down a 30-minute meeting with a representative of Calgary’s Liberal Honourable Minister, Kent Hehr (long story of how that finally happened when he was glad-handing shoppers in my local grocery store. When he aked me, *How are you doing today, young lady, I again told him how disappointed I was with the Liberals and their promises and his not answering my several requests, personally and by email, to meet with him). Mr. Hehr is not my MP, but had promised to represent all Calgarians). The issue of executor responsibility is one of the things I will point out in my too-short allotted time.
Re: Note that the IRS also says the relinquishment is still only valid if it was “later confirmed by the issuance of a certificate of loss of nationality”.
Screw the IRS. They can say whatever they want but the IRS has absolutely no authority to decide whether or not a relinquishment is valid. The US State Department really doesn’t have much say in the matter, either, because State department pretty much has to accept the person’s word when determining intent. The US’ own law couldn’t be more crystal clear on this particular point. The only way State can deny a relinquishment is if a person’s subsequent actions contradict their stated intent.
If an individual performs one of the specified relinquishing acts with the intent to lose US citizenship, then that citizenship is lost right there, right then. Everything else that follows is nothing but bureaucratic claptrap and fee collection. There is no requirement to notify the US government or beg for a CLN in order to lose US citizenship. The IRS has muddied the waters with their “US person for tax purposes” gobbledegook but in a relinquishment situation the decision is still entirely in the hands of the individual concerned. By means of various rules the IRS may continue to try to claim that expat as a US taxable person, but that doesn’t make them a US citizen. When the IRS tries to assert authority with no basis, its no wonder US citizens are running for the exits. What a bloody mess. US citizenship has become a bad joke.
@Iota
“Passports revoked?
On what grounds?”
On suspicion of owing the US Treasury $50,000 or more.
Also, if a USC is not filing, they may lose the FEIE and thus DO owe taxes and penalties not only for not filing but also for the taxes not paid.
“The difficulties of extraterritorial enforcement are presumably the reason most countries don’t bother. Absolutely typical of America to be the exception that proves the rule.”
Well the presumable reason might be either that or the feeling that ET is a human rights violation. Absolutely typical of America to call something a human rights violation and then try to cover it up when it’s America doing the violating.
I think this is getting a little confused.
a) The passport-revocation legislation doesn’t give the DoS power to revoke a USC’s passport on the grounds that they haven’t been filing and therefore might owe tax. It’s not yet clear how the legislation will apply.
b) Not filing US taxes is not grounds for extradition in any country, as far as I’m aware.
c) The IRS can’t currently arrange for a USC’s passport to be revoked on the grounds that they haven’t filed, haven’t claimed the FEIE, and therefore might owe tax.
d) Mulholland and crew were charged with money-laundering and pled guilty. It’s not a case that has any bearing, as far as I can see, on the difficulties of enforcing CBT
The revocation of passports is for owing over $50,000 in taxes and penalties. No extridition needed, those who are not living legally in a country are deported when caught.
“The revocation of passports is for owing over $50,000 in taxes and penalties.”
Etc. How this will work in practice is far from clear. Until cases have been brought and passports have successfully been revoked, there’s no way of knowing.
Clearly, a USC who has had a US Federal tax lien filed against them, and has exhausted available remedies etc, is in a very different position from most of the 8 or 9 million non-US-resident USCs who don’t file US tax returns. There’s no reason to suppose the IRS could or would want to suddenly start trying to issue liens extraterritorially against millions of non-filing USCs who don’t live in America. It sounds exactly like the kind of risky scenario the IRS normally goes to great lengths to avoid.
No extridition needed, those who are not living legally in a country are deported when caught.”
Let’s say John Q. Public moved oveseas decades ago, and like most, didn’t know he had to file. He has lived a normal life and like most, shares his account and assets with his spouse, and non USC.
Earning under the FEIE amount, due to the fact he hasn’t filed, he owes taxes for each year he lived abroad and hasn’t filed and the associated penalties.
His bank has sent the IRS all the info they have on him and his joint account through FATCA, alerting the IRS that he is a USC that has not been filing his tax and information returns and thus owes money to the IRS. This data includes his (joint) account info showing a balance greater than $10,000 that he has not filed FBARs for.
Why would the IRS not pursue this person? The IRS can see from missing returns that he has not filed for many years meaning there is tax owed plus interest and penalties.
FATCA gets repealed but the IRS still has the data on John Q. Public. Is John Q. Public really free and clear? He does not have to worry about having his passport revoked?
FATCA’s not going to be repealed. They can’t agree to repeal Obamacare, which they all hate – they’re not (I predict) going to be able to agree to pass tax reforms, which they all want – why would they miraculously fall into sunny agreement in order to repeal FATCA – a law most of their constituents have either never heard of or think is great? Not going to happen, IMO.
As for JQP – he is the only person who can assess his situation and decide what to do.
What I am trying to get it, is the importance of getting rid of not only FATCA but also CBT. The situation I gave is all hypothetical. JQP is unaware of all this and thus can not decide what is best for him.
Why would he not be in danger regardless of FATCA being repealed or not?
Getting rid of CBT is even less likely IMO.
So, folks in my situation are just SOL.
ACA, strangely enough, thinks that this is now the right time to push for RBT. I have to ask myself though, How are they going to press for RBT, if Congress can’t even agree on what to do with Obamacare? I don’t see Congress agreeing about tax reform neither, nor really much of anything else.
They’ll just fiddle while we burn like they always do.
iota and mjh: Paul Ryan indicated yesterday that there is much greater consensus on tax matters within the Republican ranks than there has been on Obamacare. I have to hope he is right. I will not choose to believe that it is impossible to defeat FATCA and CBT until the final vote proves me wrong.
@MnM
Besides hope, what else do we have?
@MuzzledNoMore
But do I believe Paul Ryan? Didn’t he also say the same thing about repealing Obamacare, too?