MAJOR Support 4 #RepealFATCA #Americansabroad thnx 2 @RepealFatca @nigeljgreen @GroverNorquist @CFandP @AmerComm https://t.co/BnuZfY0kSM
— Patricia Moon (@nobledreamer16) March 21, 2017
Came across this today: Ways & Means committee members letter
I do not have permission to reproduce in full but here are a few excerpts:
Dear Speaker Ryan, Majority Leader McConnell, Rep. Brady, and Sen. Hatch:
As free-market and taxpayer protection organizations representing millions of Americans,
we urge that repeal of the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA)—a plank in the
2016 Republican Party Platform—be included in any tax reform package sent to the
White House.
Since FATCA’s introduction, Americans living overseas have lost access to their banking
and investment accounts as foreign financial institutions drop clients rightly perceived as
toxic. This has not only impacted the welfare of the estimated nine million Americans
who live and work abroad but hampers small businesses owned and operated by
Americans attempting to compete internationally
FATCA repeal bills will soon be introduced in the House and Senate. We urge the
leadership and committees of jurisdiction to include this vital correction of misguided
enactment of the past administration by including it in any forthcoming tax bill
There is a list of 24 individuals/organizations. I ask any Tweeps to RT like mad to show our appreciation for what they are doing. PERFECT timing for the Rally tomorrow! Perhaps someone could put together an email list for those who do not Tweet.
@RepealFatca
@nigeljgreen
@GroverNorquist
@CFandP
@AmerComm
@RSI
@MarketInstitute
@ismurray
@Andrew_Langer
@limittaxesorg
@C4Liberty
@Lisabnelson
@Protectaxpayers
@NTU
@GLandrith
@60PlusAssoc
@SovereignInvest
@LimitGovt
@FreedomWorks
@tgiovanetti
@KarenKerrigan
I could not find an address I could confirm for either these individuals or orgs:
Jeffrey Mazzella President Center for Individual Freedom
Chuck Muth President Citizen Outreach
Pamela Villarreal National Center for Policy Analysis
Andrew F. Quinlan President Center for Freedom and Prosperity
Grover Norquist President Americans for Tax Reform
Phil Kerpen President American Commitment @AmerComm
Iain Murray Vice President Competitive Enterprise Institute
Andrew Moylan Executive Director R Street Institute
Charles Sauer President The Market Institute
Jeffrey Mazzella President Center for Individual Freedom
Nigel Green and Jim Jatras Co-Leaders Campaign to Repeal FATCA
Pete Sepp President National Taxpayers Union
David Williams President Taxpayers Protection Alliance
George Landrith President and CEO Frontiers of Freedom
Jim Martin Chairman 60 Plus Association
Wayne T. Brough Chief Economist and VP for Research FreedomWorks
Bob Bauman Chairman Sovereign Society Freedom Alliance
Andrew Langer President Institute for Liberty
Lew Uhler President The National Tax Limitation Committee
Chuck Muth President Citizen Outreach
Norman Singleton President Campaign for Liberty
Lisa B. Nelson CEO Jeffersonian Project
Tom Giovanetti President Institute for Policy Innovation
Rick Manning President Americans for Limited Government
Pamela Villarreal Senior Fellow National Center for Policy Analysis
Karen Kerrigan President and CEO Small Business and Entrepreneurship Council
Wasn’t there some law that said if you are a covered renunciant, and you leave something to an american citizen, that they can tax that anyway? Because you were a FORMER US citizen? (mind boggling….the keep holding on the somebody`s money.)
@Nononymous. Maybe I should see if I can persuade The Animal (a frequent poster on this forum) to be my executor. I’m pretty confident he would not be one who would feel compelled to shove my estate into US tax compliance, lol.
You are correct, the current US estate tax exemption is approximately $5.25 million (it is indexed and increases each year). My impression is that it is not a problem for most of us on this forum. It is also cumulative, meaning that for a US citizen couple, when the first spouse dies up to $5.25 mil can be inherited by the surviving spouse tax free, and any unused remainder of that $5.25 mil exemption is added to the $5.25 mil exemption of the surviving spouse. In other words, for a US couple up to $10.5 million can be passed on to their beneficiaries tax free. Things are different at the state level but that shouldn’t be a factor if one lives outside of the US and is therefore not a resident of any state. Naturally, when only one spouse is a US citizen, the complications begin. I happen to know about this because one of my US citizen US resident parents died a few years back.
@ Nononymous,
Yes, it’s over 5.25 million on your estate if you are a US citizen or a renunciant who NOT a covered expatriate. But if you are covered and leave YOUR estate to a US PERSON then that person is required to file a 708 gift and estate tax form.
@Maz
I don’t see that it would affect you as a beneficiary, it seems that it is only the estates of Covered Expats leaving to Americans who would have a problem. You would presumably not file a US 708 gift and estate tax report, but only do whatever Canada requires.
To clarify:
If you renounce and do not go through the exit tax routine, you are a covered expatriate?
If you do not renounce but remain non-compliant, you are not a covered expatriate?
@Nononymous,
If you renounce or (arguably?) relinquish after June 4 2014 without filing Form 8854 and passing the requirements of Part IV (tax filing compliance, and tax and net worth thresholds), then you are a covered expatriate.
“If you do not renounce but remain non-compliant”, then my guess is that dead or alive, you are a US citizen who is not tax-compliant. I don’t know if this is better or worse than being a non-citizen who is a covered expat. It makes sense that a US citizen can’t be an expat.
My additional question is what if you are an undocumented relinquisher? Assuming the US knows about you or is told, If the IRS catches on to you before you do the paperwork, is it too late to relinquish? I would think so. Even in Canada, it’s too late to voluntarily come clean with unclaimed income or missed filings after they detect you and take the first action. Also, what if you die? Nobody can claim a prior relinquishment intent or renounce on your behalf. Is your estate one of a covered expat? Well again, they don’t have you on record as relinquishing, and declare that you are still a USC, so you can’t be an expat. That’s been my issue/fear/concern/doubt about self-relinquishing in the case where the US has some chance of knowing about you. They have you on record as being a US citizen.
@ Whatami
Well stated. I guess those are the known unknowns?
I do not know of any other country which ties its citizens in knots in this way.
@Nononymous.
Re: question #1….Presumably yes, because you failed to certify everything you have to certify on Form 8854 in order to not be covered.. Phil Hodgen recently had an interesting discussion about filing a late 8854. According to Phil, other than the risk of a $10,000 fine for being late, there is no IRS rule which actually prohibits filing an 8854 past the deadline, thus “undoing” your covered status.
Re: question #2….I think you wind up in a state of limbo because you are not in their system. The IRS doesn’t have enough information to even classify your status. How could you possibly be a covered expat if you haven’t renounced? (Note, because I am a self-relinquisher the scenario you described above pretty much fits my situation to a “T” and I like it that way.)
Just had another thought. Maybe in my will I should include a statement that I intended to lose my US citizenship when I became a Canadian and it is my belief that I have not been a US citizen since. That would remove all doubt as to what my intent was at the time.
@maz57
The statement in the will then explicitly states that you were a US citizen at one point, so puts the executor in the position of having to take your word for it on renunciation, rather than pretending to claim ignorance of the whole situation. So not sure if it’s opening or closing the metaphorical can of worms.
I like the idea of appointing the Animal, or someone like him as executor.
He’s capable of the job and could do it as a sideline, or even a living with enough interested parties as executors can draw a fee. I’m sure he’d take pleasure in giving the US the one-finger salute for as many people as he can! Right, the Animal?
…as per Maz57’s comment here:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2017/03/21/this-is-fantastic-dont-think-we-have-ever-had-support-like-this/comment-page-5/#comment-7840967
@maz57,
You’re probably aware that the DoS and IRS have different definitions of “end date of US citizenship”. There are variations (see Form i8854, the instrucitons for f8854), but mostly the DoS considers the date of your relinquishing act, but the IRS wants to use the date you notify the DoS.
Here’s why…
For many years, USCs would leave the US and take up a foreign citizenship. They would stop filing taxes and stop renewing passports. Then, if they ever wanted to move back to the US, or seek help from an embassy or any sort of benefit of US citizenship, they’d simply renew their US passport. If the IRS caught up to them for not filing taxes before they did any such thing, they’d simply claim, “Oh, I intended to relinquish my US citizenship 20 years ago when I took up this foreign citizenship.”
The IRS figured out this loophole and set their own relinquishment date as the date of notification. These US tax cheats were failing to file US taxes on their world-wide income all those years, yet continued to enjoy the benefit of being able to renew their US passports and pick up the benefits of US citizenship at any time.
This was all described in great detail in an IRS letter, along with the seedling idea of an Exit Tax. Fascinating to read. I don’t seem to have kept it though.
Your statement about a comment in your will seems to fall right into this scenario (in their eyes at least). Even if you deserve and could obtain a back-dated relinquishment and CLN, I doubt anybody could do this on your behalf. It’s hard enough for your to claim and prove this in person.
I wrote:
I found it. I did keep it. I can’t re-read it now but I hope my recollection from 3 years ago is accurate!
https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Documents/tax598.pdf
Also, here is another history of US citizenship laws over the years:
http://americansabroad.org/files/3013/3478/0295/18-04-2012_1318_971.pdf
I am not sure it helps but it seems a death certificate in Manitoba does not include Place of Birth.
Except for the US most countries seem to be far more interested in where the deceased died than where he was born. That makes me think that a US born person’s final lucid act should be to destroy all of their birth certificates (as well as every other vestige of US-ness”) just to simplify things for the executor. Arguably the executor isn’t on a “need to know” basis for that particular piece of information. Absent “US indicia” the executor would logically assume a Canadian birthplace.
@WhatAmi. I understand what you are saying, but a Canadian executor wouldn’t be aware of the distinction between being a US citizen and being a “US person for tax purposes”. Nor would they know anything about the details of what it actually takes to end “US person for tax purposes” status. It would be sufficient for the executive to simply know that the person was no longer a US citizen and at that point who cares what the IRS thinks about it. The IRS would never know about this stuff anyway because nothing would ever be reported to them. The IRS doesn’t have the resources to track any of this for typical Canadian minnows.
We have all heard the saying “there is nothing certain in life except death and taxes” but for me there is an additional certainty…..neither I nor my estate will ever pay a penny to the IRS.
Fabulous, if scary, discussion, everyone! I tried to comment yesterday but my server quit just as I pushed the “send” button.
I just wanted to say that I was the executor of both my parents’ wills. One of them died years before FATCA but the other died just four months after I learned about it, but well before the passage of the IGA. In neither instance was I asked anything about their US citizenship status. The question only arises because of FATCA. If the current US government fulfills its intention to repeal the damned law, none of the awful scenarios discussed here will ever come to pass even if CBT is retained. No financial or legal authority in Canada will have the slightest excuse to ask any executor to certify the US citizenship status of any deceased person.
That being said, I hope with all my heart that CBT accompanies FATCA to the trash can.
@maz57,
Agreed. I said in a previous post today directed at @Nononymous, but I see now I left it out of the one to you, where I said “Assuming the US knows about you or is told”. I’m usually (literally in this case) playing the Devil’s Advocate, trying to determine the point of view that the US/IRS would likely take based on their publications, etc.
One’s mind-set and what they feel in their heart won’t sway the IRS if they “know about you or or are told” and they get involved. An analogy to self-relinquishment might be a “self-divorce”. One could walk away from their spouse and kids and feel in their mind and heart that they are divorced, but the Provincial Court will come after you and demand spousal and/or child support, half your assets, and even (as happened to a friend of ours) half of your monthly pension when you retire 12 years from now.
If they don’t know about you, that’s great. I wish I were born dual in Canada instead of born dual in the US. I would have done nothing about it, as most people here recommended to those with that (least of all evil) birth history.
I googled about for some examples of death certificates. Depending on the province, some show place of birth, some don’t, with differing combinations of town/city, province/state and country.
Google also offered up a certificate of pet cremation.
Implicit in all of this discussion is the assumption that there are absolutely no US assets. If there are, its a very different ball game and the IRS will have considerable leverage and chances are they will know of your existence from various types of stateside reporting.
The self-divorce vs. self-relinquishment analogy doesn’t totally work because although they may hate you, its a sure bet your “ex” knows you exist. Not so with “self-divorcing” yourself from the US government. Its not uncommon for people to have had no interaction with the US government for over half a century. In the case of accidentals, you can make that never. So its not very likely the IRS is going to be chasing someone they have long since forgotten about or don’t know about in the first place.
One question in my mind is what will happen if the Trump government repeals FATCA but not CBT? Will our government immediately repeal the IGA and revert to the pre-FATCA status quo or will the IGA linger on while the banks and the CRA continue to hand us over to the IRS. Governments have enough difficulty passing new legislation these days. Getting rid of obsolete legislation seems to never happen.
I find it oddly comforting, somehow, that despite years of obsessively following this issue, we’re still capable of a collective “oh shit, didn’t think of that angle” moment.
WARNING!!! WARNING!!! WARNING!!!
The online discussion I am having with a homelander has been distilled down the expected,
” You owe us. Time to pay up.”.
She also included the following,
“You know who’s the criminal here? YOU ARE. You failed to properly file your taxes, with all the forms required. That’s why you’re being hit with all the fines, genius. Hey, I wonder if the IRS would be interested in this conversation. Since you owe “tens of thousands of dollars” they might be interested in getting in touch with you.”
The pull quote,
“Hey, I wonder if the IRS would be interested in this conversation.”
WARNING follow up.
I though it important that I get that comment out there as soon as possible. While being “ratted out” has always been a risk here abd on other forums, this is to my knowledge the first explicit threat.
Below is how I am thinking to reply. While everthing there is true, I would still like to not actually invite a look in my direction. Please provide your thoughts, they are most eargerly sought.
————————————————-
If your greed has you eyeing the misnamed “Whistle Blower” award, you have been preempted.
My situation has long been public record and the IRS knows of me via my tax returns, passport application demanding info that will be illegally shared with other departments for other thand administration and submissions to the Senate’s comittee on taxation.
Further, one can not squeeze blood from a stone. I have no assets of my own nor earn enough to pay any amount you erroneously believe due you. I have no doubt that that won’t stop you from trying, however.
While your threat rings hollow as I am already known to the IRS, this Stalinist approach of yours is a real eye opener. You people are not to be trusted.
I’d just say, “go ahead”.
I say delete this sentence:
‘If your greed has you eyeing the misnamed “Whistle Blower” award, you have been preempted.’
Since your situation is public record, let her rat you out and see if she even gets an acknowledgment. Reverse psychology, and reverse psychology of reverse psychology (knowing what they know but unable to guess which of several possibilities they consider most sadistic), I can’t guess whether to add this at the end:
‘Go ahead. Make my day.’