320 thoughts on “This is Fantastic! Don’t Think We Have Ever Had Support Like this!”

1. I take the view that anyone born in Canada can easily deny their possible US citizenship, so while it’s maybe good to find out what the law might have said, and how it changed over time, this isn’t really too important if you can just say “born in Canada, Canadian citizen only” and the problem goes away. I’ve never heard of anyone being questioned about their parents’ citizenship.

2. @NorthernShrike

   Were they opening an estate account which would trigger this question?

3. That’s “were”, not “we’re”.

4. My husband and I came to Canada in 1968 and became Canadian citizens in 1974. When we heard about FATCA and subsequently had our OMG moments, we learned a lot here (IBS) and got our CLNs in 2014, documenting that each of us had relinquished US citizenship in August, 1974. Our bank never required information about birthplace No probate, although some individuals knew from informal conversation. My husband died in Feb. 2016. I am the executor. No probate was necessary. No problem after filling out forms such as death certificates which did require place of birth, some also asked for citizenship. Until I met with the local manager of the life insurance company. He read the forms I’d completed, which required my husband’s birthplace and my own, as my birth certificate was necessary for identifying me as the beneficiary. The life insurance manager said, “Oh, so he was AMERICAN, and you’re an AMERICAN, too!” I showed him a copy of my CLN, and told him that my husband had one just like it. He said, “That’s a VERY IMPORTANT document. Make sure you keep it in a very safe place!” He knew about FATCA, as his company had several clients it was helping with their American tax issues. He offered to help me with my own finances, even after I told him that I have a financial adviser. I couldn’t shake the image of the slathering wolf hiding behind his disguise as a businessman. I was shaky the rest of the day; I was (and still am) having a very difficult time dealing with my husband’s death, and having to again face issues we both had thought were settled in 1974, and again in 2016, added even more stress. I dreaded another encounter with Life insurance Man when the claim was settled, but his son delivered it in a businesslike way.

   I wonder what would have happened if my husband and I hadn’t had CLNs, or if I hadn’t had my copy nearby to brandish at the wolf or condor from the life insurance company.

5. I think this might be a good research project.

   What happens when a non-compliant US person passes away?

   I personally won’t be around to care, but I’d like to know I wasn’t leaving my survivors in the lurch.

6. My view is that due to the unprecedented US attack on Canada, Canadians, and our Canadian wealth, the correct answer whenever anyone is asked the “US citizen” question, that answer should always be “no”. Absolutely no good will ever come from answering affirmatively.

   If this could potentially be a problem for a prospective executor, it should be discussed with them to make sure they fully understand the situation and are comfortable with a no answer. If they are not, then an executor who will be comfortable needs to be chosen. It would be unfair to knowingly put an executor into this situation without discussing it beforehand.

   I don’t believe we as individuals, our executors, or our estates are under any obligation to voluntarily offer ourselves up to the rogue government to the South. The US government’s only purpose is to steal our 100% Canadian money; it would be foolish to help them with their thievery.

7. @ WhatAmI He was born 1943 or 1944 and would have tried sometime in the early 1960’s. I think at issue is that laws, even rules have evolved over time. You almost need someone to go back in time and research it. Lawyers do it all the time.

8. @ Nononymous @Queenston and perhaps others

   RE Fatca and estates

   This appears to be an important but, so far as I know, unexplored issue. Somewhere out there, there is surely an estate of a “US person” in Canada, including financial assets unreported to the US, that has become entangled in FATCA.

   @Queenston If it is not impertinent, seeing as I do not know you, let me say I am sorry you have had to deal with this mess at a time of grief.

9. @Barb, at 83 years your friend needs peace in life and bad news will take away that peace. Tell your friend the following with conviction on your face.

   “Friend, you are clearly not a US Citizen because your father lost his US Citizenship when he became Canadian and you lost your US Citizenship by not taking affirmative action before age 25.”

   Is the above true? I pulled it out of the air.

   Is it the right answer to give an 83 year old friend? Absolutely.

10. @Brockers, interesting point on place of birth on death certificate. But I think they list whatever you say.

11. One can easily forget where one’s parents were born (or remember wrongly). We don’t all have copies of our parents’ birth certificates either. Just sayin’ ……

12. “Nothing is certain except death and taxes” … and those who would profit from them.

13. The Unreported Offshore Account
    Still Alive After Death & Plaguing Executors and Heirs
    By Virginia La Torre Jeker J.D.

    https://www.world.tax/articles/the-unreported-offshore-account-still-alive-after-death-plaguing-executors-and-heirs.php

14. @Bubblebustin

    Interesting article, but of course it only really applies to deceased US residents, whose executors discover a foreign account. Doesn’t offer much insight into what might happen to deceased non-compliant non-resident US citizens.

15. Topic #1

    Regarding the 83 year old born in Canada to (presumably long-deceased) parents who immigrated from the US, and anyone else in a similar situation: you are a Canadian born in Canada and nothing else. That is how you should represent yourself, period.

    You may or may not have been entitled to US citizenship, but it doesn’t matter. You have no taint, no US birthplace, so there’s no reason to ever claim to be anything but Canadian. Nobody is going to ask where your parents were born. (If you’re comfortable with lying, this even applies if you once had a US passport or lived and worked in the US – as far as anyone in Canada is concerned, you’re a Canadian citizen only, the only way it can be proved otherwise is if you volunteer the information.)

    If a bank needs to prove that you’re not a US citizen, they can dig up your parents birth certificates and pay for the lawyers to research US immigration law in 1940 or 1960 or whenever – not your problem. But if you just say “born in Canada” the question should never come up.

16. @Queenston,

    I am very sorry to hear of your husband’s passing. You both were indeed smart to get those CLN’s as soon as you heard bc it’s my understanding it is somewhat harder to receive a backdated CLN than it was in the earlier days of Brock.

    What a creep that life insurance agent was. No excuse for such insensitive behaviour.

    Thank you for telling your story. I don’t think we have had anyone else report an experience like this and it’s good you’ve sounded the alarm bells. What a mess the U.S. has made.

    I sure hope you’ll stay connected here, post, and let us know how you’re doing.

17. Topic #2

    The estate business has got me thinking – is it something I overlooked in my confident willingness to ignore the US at every turn?

    I would love to have more information about the exact circumstances in which the daughter (presumably an executor) was asked to certify that the deceased was not a US citizen. Similarly, could a life insurance company demand this information, and would they then report a payout under FATCA if either the deceased or the beneficiary were US persons?

    I think we need to do a bit of research here, and for two specific circumstances (assume no US assets or property in both cases):

    1. What happens when a non-compliant dual citizen with US birthplace dies? Is the birthplace recorded on the death certificate? Is the executor required to certify citizenship status? Is this information required for the (mysterious to me) ensuing legal process? Are the estates of US persons reportable under FATCA? Is any other mechanism triggered to report the death or existence of the estate to US authorities?

    2. What happens when a non-compliant dual citizen without US birthplace dies? Is the executor required to certify citizenship status, and what happens if they state the truth?

18. @NorthernShrike

    I may have mixed up daughter with son in the comment above. Can’t keep genders straight today. But the same point still applies.

19. Finally, the third circumstance I forgot to add to the list above:

    3. What happens when the executor of a Canadian’s estate is a US person?

20. Retweet Welcome:

    https://twitter.com/JCDoubleTaxed/status/844672550965669888

21. @Nononymous Tricky one. Executor. If no U.S. assets then there could be playing it just under rules of country of resident. If compliancer gets invited in and gets whiff of U.S. person then they may require the executor to FBAR, etc.

22. This is what the CRA wants from an Executor / Legal Representative per http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/lf-vnts/dth/rprsnttv-eng.html

    Legal representative
    You are the legal representative of a deceased person if:

    you are named as the executor in the will;
    you are appointed as the administrator of the estate by a court; or
    you are the liquidator for an estate in Quebec.

    …

    Under the Income Tax Act, as the legal representative, it is your responsibility to:

    file all required returns for the deceased;
    ensure that all taxes owing are paid; and
    let the beneficiaries know which of the amounts they receive from the estate are taxable.
    As the legal representative, you are responsible for filing a return for the deceased for the year of death. This return is called the Final return.

    You also have to file any returns for previous years that the deceased person did not file. If the person did not leave records about these returns, or if you cannot tell from existing records whether or not the returns were filed, contact us at 1-800-959-8281. If you have to file a return for a year before the year of death, use a T1 General Income Tax and Benefit Return for that year. Previous year returns are available on our website, or by calling 1-800-959-8281.

    You have to file a T3 Trust Income Tax and Information Return, for income of the estate earned after the date of death. If the terms of a trust were established by the will or a court order in relation to the deceased individual’s estate under provincial or territorial dependant relief or support law, you also have to file a T3 Trust Income Tax and Information Return for that trust. You may not have to file a T3 return (not to be confused with the final return, which always has to be filed) if the estate is distributed immediately after the person dies, or if the estate did not earn income before the distribution. In these cases, you should give each beneficiary a statement showing his or her share of the estate. See the T4013, T3 Trust Guide, for more information and, where a trust is created, to determine whether that return has to be filed. See Chart 2 to find out what income to report on the T3 return.

    Could the CRA, for whatever reason, need this deeper than what is Canadian (for Canadian citizens the government considers *US citizens who happen to abide in Canada* as it may not be true that *A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian* — that some are subject to discrimination by a US-deemed nationality because of their place of birth or the place of birth of their parent(s)?

23. The Canadian government also recommends a Canadian estate not have a non-resident executor for tax reasons.

    “If a person appoints a non-resident of Canada as his or her executor, the estate will not receive preferred tax treatment on Canadian dividends or capital gains, and it may not be able to divide the tax burden with beneficiaries who are Canadian residents. Moreover, a non-resident estate may be subject to taxation in the country of residence of the executor; in some situations, the estate may be taxed in the foreign country and in Canada.”

    Also,

    “Even if a Canadian resident is appointed executor, problems may arise if he or she later moves from Canada. In such a situation, the estate may be deemed to have disposed of all assets at fair market value as of the date of departure and then be taxed on any gains. It is generally beneficial to appoint an executor that resides in Canada during estate planning.”

    http://www.dhestatelaw.com/blog/2014/10/residence-of-executor-may-have-important-tax-consequences.shtml

24. @Nononymous. All of the potential issues you mentioned above are why I hope I live long enough to see a stake driven through the heart of CBT and FATCA. If any of our Canadian banks, lawyers, or insurance agents start to get all huffy about possible US-ness they need to be fired immediately and replaced with a real Canadian that will actually act in OUR interest instead of covering their ass while attempting to out us to a foreign country.

    Meanwhile, for an individual with the taint all of this is an obvious minefield which needs to be navigated carefully. So far, for myself, lying (AKA self-certifying, lol) has proven to be very effective. In every instance to date, as soon as they get the answer they are looking for they get all happy, drop the subject, and move on to other things. I certainly don’t feel the slightest twinge of guilt; whether they know it or not, those who ask “the question” are acting as IRS shills and deserve what they get. Fight bullshit with bullshit.

25. @maz57,

    While I’d like to say I couldn’t agree more with what you just posted, the fact is that the financial institutions and their employees are required by Canadian law to report US-ness. I can’t expect them to break the law or risk their jobs on my behalf. I can’t blame the employees or the Financial institutions. I used to blame the Conservatives but of course the Liberals and every other party would have passed the FATCA-enabling IGA laws just the same. I can only blame the US, but of course fighting our government on the issue is perfectly legitimate.