320 thoughts on “This is Fantastic! Don’t Think We Have Ever Had Support Like this!”

1. You guys are like the rich folk on the Titanic refusing to take action because she was unsinkable. We down in 3rd class know better.

   Your belief in the myth that the IRS doesn’t have enough money to go after everyone ignores two vital facts. The first is how the US budget is decided. I won’t go to that now because the other is more relevant and has been discussed here.

   One thread dealing with FATCA on IBS has “That’s a lot of zeroes” in its title. Something like $11 billion dollars are prejected to be needed by countries other than the US to implement FATCA. The then president of Canada’s largest bank estimated a cost of $100 million dollars for his bank to make the changes required to meet FATCA’s mandate. Various banks and bsnking groups in Europe made came up,with the sane number. What do you suppose they need that amount of money for, tea and crumpets? What, you think the IRS is providing this money to your bank to find you? I know that the IGAs have in many cases shifted the burden to the taxpayer but the IRS isn’t reimbursing your treasury for the costs either. The fact that you continue to ignore is that YOU are paying for your FI’s and your governments to track you down and rat you out.

   But if holding on to the belief of unicorns, unsinkable ships or the IRS not having enough money to chase you down helps you sleep at night, knock yourself out.

2. The rich passengers had a far better chance of boarding a lifeboat, so I’m not sure the metaphor really works.

   However, assume I’m wrong and the IRS is coming for us all. I’m a sheep. I’m doomed. But what are you going to do, with only a US passport in a country that doesn’t sound too hospitable? You must have a plan. I’m a naive idiot, but it sounds like you’ve got this figured out.

3. The only thing I have thus far found that I can do, try to inform as many people as possible resist for as long as I can.

   Neither seem to be working very well.

4. WhatAmi,

   I described two people in different situations.

   One person was an accidental dual Canada/US citizen, born in the US to two Canadian parents, moved to Canada with them as a toddler, never had a US passport or any connection with the US, never imagined that the birthplace on the Canadian passport would cause trouble when traveling to the US with friends on a school.
   break.

   The second person is an American citizen who moved to Canada as a teenager decades ago, wanted to stay American for the passport, and thought that becoming a Canadian citizen would cause the loss of American citizenship. Knew about the Cuba ban, but they’d never stamped her passport until recently. To be able to visit family in the US, told the US consulate that the passport had been lost. Is now starting to become Canadian, and plans to renounce (US) at that time.

   I don’t know if you’d need a notarized copy of your CLN. I haven’t been asked for my (non-notarized) copy at the US border, but my last trip was in 2015. I understand your concern about an emergency landing with a Cuban stamp and a US birthplace in your Canadian passport. If I were in your position I might get a notarized copy to help avoid further complications. I wonder if anyone here has a notarized copy of their CLN. The person who was bullied is a young post-secondary student, and might have looked like a vulnerable target.

   Enjoy your trip!

5. @Queenston

   Thanks for all the info.

   I actually made 4 or 5 notarized copies of my CLN when I received it, so I’ll probably take one on the trip to the US.

   I’ve always planned to ask questions the first time I enter the US now that I have a CLN. Like, “My CDN passport shows my US birthplace but you didn’t ask me about it. I know people who have been questioned at length. Does your computer show you that I relinquished US citizenship? You didn’t ask for my CLN. Do I need to carry it with me when I enter the US?”

   What we’ve always wanted to know but were afraid to ask.

   I think I probably won’t though. We will have been towing a trailer for 12 hours by then and I wouldn’t want to open the can of worms and delay our arrival at the destination.

6. @ Japan T
   Resist indeed. But let’s not do it with the attitude that defeat is certain. Believe me, I am NOT one of those so-called positive thinkers, however it’s a matter of not being able to keep one’s strength up when mired in the muck of the fear of a bad outcome. It should help to know that those in defiance of US tax tyranny (i.e. non-filers, whether knowingly or unknowingly) vastly outnumber those in compliance — there’s strength in numbers.

   Meanwhile every year that passes you get farther away from that joint account you closed but still worry about. IF you keep your own accounts below the FBAR filing threshhold and (if possible) keep your income below the 1040 filing limit then a bank FATCA report sent to the IRS shouldn’t, I think, affect you too badly. You could pound your fist down on the bank counter (if closure is threatened) and say you don’t need a CLN because you are US tax compliant. Right? Of course, ultimately getting Japanese citizenship would be the best ticket to your peace of mind but I realize that’s not something you can do instantly.

   https://www.thebalance.com/are-you-required-to-file-a-tax-return-3192868 — I realize that’s a pretty low limit.

   Hang in there … it’s all you can do. Resist … it’s NOT futile. Inform … it’s vital for others to know the facts. Take heart … others like ADCS and Repeal FATCA are helping.

7. @EmBee

   Yes, my hope is that I go undiscovered long enough to not have anything, especially my spouse’s assets, to report on FBARS, that FBAR fines are not applied to the passport revocation, my banks do not shut me out and that FEIE is not eliminated by the time the 6 year SoL runs out on FBARS. Then, I should be able to apply for J citizenship, provided I can then meet the requirements.

   I have not even checked to see if there are any financial requirements. To get my first visa I had to provide a bank statement showing a minimum balance of $10,000. Having to file FBARs would greatly complicate things. But that remains an unknown and as it is necessarily years away, the rules may change by that time. Hopefully, the wait time for renouncing will be much shorter than time limit required by J law to shed my previous citizenship.

   That is a hell of a lot of things that I have no control over but have to go just right for a number of years for me to be sucessful.

8. @ Japan T
   I hope timing goes better for you than it does for me. Something always seems to screw up my best laid plans, like make an appointment in a distant city and presto a blizzard that day. All my best wishes to you. Along with the 5th Amendment there should be a 5a — the right to refuse to comply because of the complexity.

9. @EmBee

   Since childhood I have always needed several plans, having learned that something will always screw up my first plans; a car breaking down, my back ride falling ill, being called in to work to cover for someone else, the person handling my paperwork was reassigned and the replacement has to start all over causing the filing deadline to be missed, you know, the usual. I am not optimistic.

   @All

   The more I converse with homelanders the more clear it becomes that they are rabid for the US to hunt us down. The are jealous to the extreme over FEIE and any other ‘foreign’ write offs we can claim. Their anger, jealousy and hatered alone should cause grave concern. Coupled with the might of the US Gov. even more so.

10. “The more I converse with homelanders the more clear it becomes that they are rabid for the US to hunt us down.”

    1. You’re conversing with the 0.0001 percent of homelanders who are even aware that US citizens live abroad. The rest have no idea.

    2. Stop conversing with homelanders, it’s not worth the effort.

11. “1. You’re conversing with the 0.0001 percent of homelanders who are even aware that US citizens live abroad. The rest have no idea.”

    The ones I converse with know nothing of it until I tell them, then they automatically shift to the “You pay” mantra.

    I am inclined to agree that talking with homelanders is not worth the effort, but it is they who have the ear of congress, such as the have.

12. “The rich passengers had a far better chance of boarding a lifeboat, so I’m not sure the metaphor really works.”

    Yep, 1st class passengers had much better chance yet many of the lifeboars were far from full. Many perished because by the time they realized the dsnger was real, it was too late for them.

13. @iota

    “Nice. Very nice.”

    Well do you expect? You might as well be telling that all I need to do to get my freedom is swim across that Atlantic and that that isn’t as bad as having to swim across the Pacific.

    Like a blind man who does not need to keep being told to just open his eyes and see, I do bot keep being told to do what I can not.

14. I have explained the situation to friends and family in the US and they have all of them been completely supportive and are outraged that IRS is going after us.

15. I’ve had the same reaction as NorthernShrike. I have three relatives and a friend in the US. All felt it was grossly unfair and my friend actually took action, sent her congressman some articles I’d sent her about FATCA and spoke with one of his staff members about it. I didn’t ask her to do this — I just thought she wanted articles on FATCA so she could read up on it herself.

    Different people will react differently, and I’ve no doubt that some people inside the US will be/are just closeminded and boneheaded about this, but I’d have to say that my experiences with persons inside the US on this matter have been very positive. Four people is a minute sample, but it does lead me to assume that more people than just these 4 have a sense of fair play.

    It’s not an issue that affects persons inside the US directly, so I doubt it would be a major issue for them, as I think people everywhere tend to mainly focus or get involved on issues that affect them. Nevertheless, my US friend was able to pique her congressman’s interest, so I think it’s definitely worth trying to get the word out to US friends and relatives.

16. @JapanT and @ All:
    As my dear father used to say: “FUBAR”
    FATCA IS FUBAR! IGAs are FUBAR!
    NSA is FUBAR!
    CIA is FUBAR.
    FUBAR?
    “Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition”
    My dad alway said that it described WWll PERFECTLY!

17. Catching up on this thread, it has suddenly occurred to me this sad, and tragic irony….

    While the prey argue among themselves in their free range field, over who’s being paranoid, who has their head in the sand, what to do, whether to do anything, who’s got it all figured out, and every other petty, and ridiculous damn thing, the predator is putting on his apron, sharpening his axe, and contemplating his next meal over the sounds of all of the clucking.

    Guess what’s for dinner? Yeah, he’s eating chicken. He doesn’t care which one, neither.

    Yeah, uhh, I’m too busy in this shady corner, trying to dig my way under the fence like a motherclucker for that bullshit, while other cluckers argue about Breitbart, black helicopters, and what is FUBAR.

    And no! I’m not sitting on my fine feathered ass, and picking at worms in the ground. I was able to get under the first fence, but that is merely where the factory farm was, Free range doesn’t mean free. know what I mean?

18. No, actually.

19. SAUVE QUI PEUT, (meaning…..Save your fucking self!) Nononymous!

    Do you at least get that?

20. I’m perfectly safe at the moment, thank you. If I decide that one day I need to renounce, I’ll renounce.

21. @mjh49783,

    No offence intended, but are you usxcanada with a new login?

22. In terms of our range og differences in perceiving/calculating the level of extraterritorial threat from the IRS in all our many different unique situations;

    My dad always advised me to be armed and ready for bear even if expecting something smaller. Metaphorically speaking. But he also said that one’s toolbox should have a range of tools.

23. Mjh: on the contrary, knowledge is power and the prey are busy gaining knowledge here. It will allow us to scatter widely, to adopt better strategies, and deal with the situation on our own terms. Being informed gives us a sense of the choices we have, a much better sense than what a “professional” could tell us. FATCA served to round up some, but many others are now on the run.

24. @Fred (B)

    I’ve been following this issue since it hit the media 5+ years ago, and while it’s quite possible I’m in my own weird little bubble, my subjective sense is that over time we’ve seen an emerging consensus in favour of what I’d call “quiet” resistance. From the occasional hysteria of the early years – the US wants all of my retirement savings!! – we’ve moved on to strategies for managing the problem. Advice to stay the hell out of the US tax system is now more and more commonly given, here and on other forums.

    I think it might be instructive to pick an opportune time, when something hits the news – a FATCA repeal effort, the new CRS forms rolling out later in the year, or god forbid the lawsuit ever goes to trial – and approach a sympathetic journalist to profile some cheerfully non-compliant individuals who can offer advice on “self-documented relinquishment” and “oops I didn’t see the US citizen box on that bank form” and “no the US can’t collect a dime north of the border” and other pragmatic techniques for safely avoiding both the IRS and the compliance industry.

25. WhatAmI;

    My instinct would be to keep the worms in the can. You’re prepared to meet a border officer who does ask for your American passport, but after towing a trailer for 12 hours you probably don’t want tobe involved in a lengthy confrontation – at least, I wouldn’t.

    Good luck!