reposted from MapleSandbox
by Lynne Swanson
#FATCA Americans overseas: Do NOT allow US tax pros scare u into entering US tax system. Many have no business entering!
— Keith REDMOND (@kredmond_global) January 19, 2017
Backing up the above tweet, Keith Redmond posted the following on Facebook:
Dear Members: I just had a lengthy, robust call with an individual who spent 25 years in upper management with the Department of Treasury IRS Criminal Investigation. He confirmed what I thought about the IRS. There is more bark than bite. He stated that there are many, many Americans overseas ho have no business in entering the US tax system and that Accidental Americans UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should enter the US tax system. He confirmed that there are MANY US tax pros who prey on Americans overseas and Accidental Americans through fear and falsehoods. (e.g. you will get arrested, etc.). Any US tax professional who pushes and scaremongers these individuals to comply are not professionals and should not be used! He confirmed that the IRS is NOT going to go after you in your country of residence (most especially if you are a citizen of that country) and the IRS is NOT going to arrest you at the US border. The IRS does not have the resources to do this plus they go after those who have committed a crime not the average American overseas. He stated that Americans overseas need to not succumb to the fear. Excellent conversation and I am glad my views have been validated.
This reflects what I have long believed. Unfortunately, there is still the nightmare of FATCA to deal with. In some countries, anyone born in the US cannot even get bank accounts. We are treated as criminals just for banking where we live.
I asked Keith how his contact explains and justifies this.
Keith replied:
He can’t. He finds the whole situation abhorent…
This is curious – the US will allow you entry if you were born in one of the banned countries but don’t have citizenship there. How the hell would they know if you do or don’t have citizenship of one of those countries when travelling on another passport?
http://globalnews.ca/news/3211632/how-trump-immigration-order-affects-canadians-with-dual-citizenship/
@Bubblebustin
I think it’s safe to say the airlines or border officials would assume that birthplace = citizenship and keep you out, but who knows, obviously this policy was implemented without detailed guidelines or much thought as to the possible consequences.
If one were, say, an Iranian with a green card and a job in the US, and were now locked out of the country indefinitely, would one still be expected to file a tax return? Well done, America. Way to go.
Honestly, on days like this I can’t decide between setting fire to my US passport in the lobby of the nearest consulate, or moving south and joining the resistance.
“In the future, yes, it’s technically possible that the Canadian government could completely sell us down the river by turning over tax data so the US can calculate what we all owe, and assist with collections of taxes due and fines and penalties. Would they really do that to 2 to 3 percent of their own population? I doubt it.”
Why doubt it? The US is doing that to 2 to 3 percent of its citizens. Do you think the Con artists and Fiberals will get kicked out of power before Congress speaks again?
“If you want to the push the argument to its extreme, the US could easily invade and make us all taxpayers at gunpoint. Technically possible? Yes. Likely? No.”
Trump’s wall is needed NOW.
‘Clarification to post above:
“For typical dual US-Canadian citizen in Canada, in my view, FATCA currently has zero to near-zero impact.”
The exception would be a dual citizen with significant funds outside of RRSPs and other vehicles exempt from reporting under the IGA.’
That would also include some of us idiots who complied with US law decades before the IGA. I didn’t open an RRSP in the first place because any money that got a tax exemption in Canada would get taxed by the US.
‘In that case, if the financial institution was aware of their US personhood, that information could be reported to the US.’
That already happened, approximately one decade before the IGA.
‘Whether the US can then do anything useful with the information is another story. Certainly under current conditions they cannot collect any money from a US person who is also a Canadian citizen (unless the debt was incurred prior to taking Canadian citizenship).’
You mean they can’t get the Canadian government to assist them in collecting. They can still collect from any Canadian financial institution that wants to cooperate with the US[*], and they can still collect from any other source they find[**].
[* For example, in 2002 TD Waterhouse in Canada sent the IRS 30% of Canadian sourced interest payments paid into my account in Canada.]
[* and a half: The IRS penalized me US$500 based on an allegation that my 2002 return was frivolous. The IRS repeatedly refused to say what was frivolous about it, but now I understand that it’s because I declared US withholding[*] without knowing it had been embezzled by IRS employees.]
[** For example, thirteen months after US Tax Court ruled that the IRS cannot collect the penalty for 2002, the IRS partially collected by offset from the refund they owe me for 2007. The IRS didn’t send a notice which would be legally required if the IRS obeyed laws, but I figured it out from a combination of a bill that they illegally sent and some other information.]
‘Add the usual caveat that if you have US assets, property, income, business interests, work travel requirements, future inheritance, family ties, etc. then you have a more complex problem on your hands. All bets are off.’
Yes, but even accidentals can be victimized by Canadian financial institutions.
@Norman
Can we not just agree that you’re an unfortunate edge case? Nobody else seems to have had these issues.
But Prime Minister Justin Trudeau tweeted Saturday, “To those fleeing persecution, terror (and) war, Canadians will welcome you, regardless of your faith, except if you’re a US citizen. Oops wait, Canada will still welcome you, but Canada will help the US persecute you. Oops wait, Canadians aren’t the government of Canada — the government of Canada will persecute you, but Canadians are Canadians are Canadians, except for those who are US citizens. Oh what a twit, I can’t even figure out what I meant to say.”
“Can we not just agree that you’re an unfortunate edge case?”
You mean because if I’d timely known that I was required to lie then I could have avoided these problems? Sure, but I’m not alone. In 2011 the IRS’s Taxpayer Advocate reported to Congress that thousands of honest taxpayers were forced to renounce US citizenship, because it’s impossible to be honest on US tax forms and honest people get penalized.
@LesMajor
I thoroughly researched the enhanced drivers license and according to the information given by Canada about what information was shared with who, there was no stage where birthplace was passed on. Since I don’t know what province you are in, here’s a link with links to all the provinces that have it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_Drivers_License
If you get the enhanced license, you have to take a further stept to activate it (something I did not know) otherwise, when you wave it across the machine at the crossing, it won’t work……….
As far as the passport issue goes, for decades the State Department was supposed to send 4 pieces of information to the IRS after issuing a passport. I cannot easily put my fingers on my file but name, address, SIN and something else were included. Whether they do it now or not, I don’t know and am not easily finding.
@PM
“@JTSorry that I don’t remember this 100% but I never think of you as an Accidental. If you are, I apologize. But this post and it’s info is based upon
1) one is an Accidental
2) based upon information from an IRS Ci person
3) observations over the past 5 years
Are we on the same page?”
You are correct in that I am not an accidental, but my children are. They are hit two ways, their own personal exposure of being accidental and what happens to them when/if their father (me) a/o their mother (Japanese with a non Japanese name) lose their bank accounts or if/when their father losses his passport.
Accidentals born in the US of non USC parents are not exposed to trouble due to their parentage, only place of birth. Accidentals born of one or more USC parents are exposed via their own accidental USC status AND the USC status of their parent/s.
Personally, if I were single, this would be a lot easier to deal with. Still a big problem due to bank closures etc, but a lot easier to move back to the US and avoid further exposure, as a last resort. Not realistic to move ones family to the country you are trying to protect them from, however.
Re US passport issues, here is some information from a law firm (and refers to *tax invaders*?)
http://www.lawfirmwolf.com/us-passport-renewal
@calgary
thanks for that. Enough to look up for one night I think!
@Nononymous
““The FBAR fines came out of nowhere and were applied retroactively. I see no way that I nor anyone else living abroad could have prepared for that.”
But they haven’t been applied. To the best of our knowledge, certainly in Canada, non-residents coming into compliance are not being hit with FBAR fines. Nor do we have any record of non-compliant individuals being identified by FATCA even hearing from the IRS, let alone being hit with FBAR fines. Not to say it won’t happen one day, but it hasn’t happened yet.”
Then why fear any of this? First, it is too early for there to be any public action on FATCA data. Second, with the DA actively seeking support from US expats for their canidate in the recent election, there was no way in hell that a democrat admin. was going to make a move against USPs abroad before the election. If they won the election, I’d bet that by mid 2018 that action based on info earned via the FATCA data would have occured. Now, it is most likely on a back burner awaiting a better feel of what the current admin. wants to do with it. If the current admin. does not wish to follow up on the FATCA data, it wil stay on the far back burner to await for the next democrat admin to use at which point they will have a minimum of 5 years of FATCA data to use against us. Unless of course the Trump admin kills FATCA and CBT. If not killed, it just go into hibernation and when it is awaken, it will come seemingly out of nowhere.
@Nononymous
“No it wasn’t. Some folks entered OVDI in a panic or spent loads of money on compliance, but that was their choice, possibly driven by bad advice and a lack of information. ”
Too late for my child. If I had known that this applied to me and would to my family, I would have taken action before I exposed them to all this. For one, I never would have opened a jpintbaccount with my wife which put me over the reporting threshold. We no longer hold a joint account but as I would have to file FBARs for the padt several years, it is too late to avoid reporting her data to get a clean break. I even looked into getting a paper divorce but that won’t protect my wife nor our children either. Too late for us.
We found out about this too late to prevent my wife from spending secondments in the US and filing US tax returns and obtaining an ITN. Another activity we would not have engaged in if we knew that any of this was possible. The only way for it not to be too late is to have a time machine and go back and undo what we did.
“Others decided to to take a wait-and-see approach, given that they correctly perceived the current risk to be very low. (US citizens losing access to banking services in a select few countries is a different issue, and in any case I’m not sure they had or have any alternative course of action, beyond renouncing if possible.)”
I was aware of the OVDI and OVDP but believed they did not apply to my situation. It was clear to me from what I read that they were looking for actual tax evaders. Little did I know then that I would be included in that group. I wouldn’t learn of any potential problems until reading those statements on my passport application.
Bank closures are a hell of a big issue for those of us living in countries where electronic fund transfers, direct deposits for our pay and bills being paid via allotments directly from our accounts, and electronic ID becoming increasingly required. Was it Belgium that a poster said that their ID has an IC chip with all their info in it? Even my Japanese DL has such a chip.
Again, for me this is NOT a tax issue. I have little concern about the IRS, for many of the reasons you give. However, bank lockout is a life ending circumstance for many, unless you know of a way to buy food with out any method of receiving money needed to pay for it. The countries where this happened are the countries where first the IRS placed pressure. As the IRS focuses on other countries, banks in those countries should be expected to follow suit as they will be under the same pressures. We are liabilities to them, and banks abhor liabilities.
@Nononymous
“I don’t know if you really are that much more exposed than we are, but you seem to believe it so prepare as you see fit. If you really think the US government is both that malevolent and that competent, get yourself a new passport, pronto.”
I was forced to give all my info to State to be turned over to Treasury to renew my passport a few years ago. I AM in the pipeline, exposed.
My main concerns are being locked out of banks, which would leave me starving as pay for all wages require a bank account. Even my Japanese income tax refund is deposited directly to my account. This would be a action taken by banks in response to the USG, but not a direct action by the US.
Second is losing my passport due to FBAR fines. There is reason to believe that fines will not be applied but I kep runnng accross references stating that they will be, including a financial writer for Bloomberg and I think the IRS TAS.
Really wish I could get a new passport pronto. I can’t. Besides, Caroline in the “I Live Hell…” thread renounced but her banking problems persist. I would be in a similar situation, not being a USC but still needing to provide proof that I fullfilled by tax obligations to the US in order to retain access to banking.
We now need to consider not only what the US will do and what our FIs will do but also what private debt collectors both domestically based and those based abroad outside the reach of the laws of the lands we live in will do. Unlike IRS employees who get their regular paycheck whether they find us or not, private debt collectors only get paid after they catch someone. They should be assumed to be much more energetic in their pursuit of us ‘evil tax dodgers’.
@Nononymous
“@Norman
Can we not just agree that you’re an unfortunate edge case? Nobody else seems to have had these issues.”
How do you know he is an edge case, because he is the only one on this forum who has gone through what he has gone through?
@Bubblebustin
“This is curious – the US will allow you entry if you were born in one of the banned countries but don’t have citizenship there. How the hell would they know if you do or don’t have citizenship of one of those countries when travelling on another passport?”
Here is an exert from the ESTA visa waiver, I am sure that the visa application asks even more pertinent questions.
Have you ever been issued a passport or national identity card for travel by any other country?* No Yes
Are you now, a citizen or national of any other country?* No Yes
Have you ever been a citizen or national of any other country?* No Yes
Esta application
https://www.esta-registration.co.uk/esta-application.html
@Heidi, that line of questioning would be far more preferable if it was included in the IGA.
We can only wish……..
Thanks for that Heidi.
Many dual Canadian-banned country citizens will be relieved to know that it will not be necessary for US border guards to interrogate them as to whether their banned country place of birth means they have citizenship there.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/dual-citizens-with-canadian-passports-not-affected-by-trump-travel-ban-pmo-1.3261361
As I think back on all that has been discussed here, another huge difference occured to me. Canada, it seems allows dual citizenship. Japan does not. What happens to my childern when if the US asserts their claim to my children? The story of a fellow in one of the Arab nations was posted a while back claiming that the US assertations of him being a USC caused him to lose his “other” nationality.
I do not know the details, but my children’s existance will be known through FATCA and the My Number system despite not being
registered as a birth abroad and they can not renounce until the are of age. What happens to accidentsl “duals” living in countries that do not allow dual citizenship when they can not shed their US citizenship?
“Japan does not.”
They do if you become president of Peru and murder lots of people. Otherwise they do until age 22 and then stop officially recognizing dual citizenship, but as always, officials get to decide when they’ll do things the official way and then not.
“What happens to my childern when if the US asserts their claim to my children?”
Your children have to choose one or the other by age 22. Come to think of it, I don’t know when the minimum age is that they can make a choice. You might want to search for that. I’ve read that the US doesn’t count it as a relinquishment because the child was born with the other citizenship instead of taking an action to obtain it, but I have a feeling your children could make a very strong case for relinquishment when they make a choice like this.
@ND
Thanks. From what I remember my kids can not renounce USCship until they are 18. I thought that was regardless of whatever action they may take. But I am unsure what action, apart from being born in Japan of a Japanese national, they could take. My wife has no idea as she was not required to take any action, she being born in Japan, also of a Japanese national.
Crazy, the US requires a someone born abroad to take action to affirm their nationality of the land ot their birth, yet claims the same individual is a USC even without any action to affirm USCship. Crazy.
As for the other, my kids are not murderous leaders of foreign nations who just happen to have a name of Japanese origin, so that route is not open to them.
But, if my children can not renounce USCship by age 22, what happens?
You can have place of birth removed from your passport? I didn’t know that. Does every country allow this except the US?
Someone brought up our UN Human Rights complaint. Do you really expect anything to come of that? Guess which country is head of the Human Rights Council: Saudi Arabia. Not only one of the worst human rights abusers in the history of the world, and a major funder of terrorism, but also a faithful servant of Uncle Sam.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/united-nations-farce-saudi-arabia-to-head-un-human-rights-council/5477833?print=1
JapanT, you probably told us already (don’t recall), but why can’t you apply for Japanese citizenship, being married to a national and having kids with her? Then you could renounce.
Here’s a more readable link for the article about Saudi Arabia:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/united-nations-farce-saudi-arabia-to-head-un-human-rights-council/5477833