This is an update on our Canadian FATCA IGA lawsuit — just to let you know that the lawsuit is alive and is moving forward, slowly.
Today our litigators and the Government attorneys met with a Case Management Judge to resolve differences.
The good news is that we now have permission from the Case Management Judge to file a motion for the Charter-Constitutional trial and provide our evidence in support of the motion. Government will also file a motion, for which we have 28 days to respond, on an issue in which there is disagreement between our side and Government.
Once that Government motion and our response is sorted out, there will be another Case Management Conference to resolve remaining issues prior to trial and to schedule the hearing.
— I am sorry, but we do not yet have a trial date in 2017, and I will keep you informed on developments.
Thank you for your patience. By now, we all know that litigation against Government does not move quickly.
Finally, I want to thank the brave Plaintiffs and Witnesses for their courage: They make our lawsuit possible.
Stephen
Canadian FATCA IGA lawsuit update
Thank you for the update.
“Our side” and the government only disagree on one thing?
‘“Our side” and the government only disagree on one thing?’
Sure, but which is the thing? I can think of two possibilities.
1.
“The IGA violates the Charter of Rights.”
“No it doesn’t.”
or
2.
“A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian.”
“Some Canadians are US persons in Canada. Excuse me a minute, I need to go talk to my younger self.”
I was hoping Mike Huckabee would take a cabinet post in the Trump administration. He is a rabid advocate of the FairTax that would solve the expat problem and the immigration problem and the offshore parking of 12 trillion dollars to avoid taxes and the unfairness of who votes the taxes onto us and who pays those taxes and 55 other issues of unfairness of the U.S. Taxing system. I am about to give up on politicians . Draining the swamp would logically include the thinly veiled bribes that congressmen take by calling it campaign contributions. The tax code is about 77,000 pages, more than the Christian Bible and even Trump will add a few hundred pages and call it tax reform, when it is really a way anew for the same congressmen to get paid to amend it over and over to put back in the things reform took out.
Oh, can I join the guessing game too? I know Stephen can’t offer more information but it’s fun to guess.
Plaintiffs: The U.S.A. does NOT have ultimate jurisdiction in the sovereign country of Canada over all persons they deem to be US tax slaves when said persons are Canadian citizens.
Defendants: Yes they do.
Plaintiffs: No they don’t.
Defendants: Yes.
Plaintiffs: No.
… and so on …
Thanks for the update @ Stephen Kish. Inch by inch, we’re getting there. Like you, I’m very grateful for our plaintiffs and witnesses. I know their testimonies are compelling and Joseph Arvay will present their case with great skill and with whatever the right amount of passion is allowed in a Canadian court. I only know TV courts so I have no idea what real courts are like. Maybe Canadian Ginny can give us a hint. Is it all just facts and figures or can an appeal for empathy play a role as well?
No- its not just one disagreement. It is the FIRST to be discussed and resolved. Then there are more. Maybe the rest of the disagreements rest on the acknowledgement of the first one.
I wish this trial the best, but I am highly doubtful of any sort of “justice” being done. Even if the trial is taking place in Canada and challenging Canadian laws being imposed on Canadian citizens, who may also hold the unfortunate and unwanted US citizenship or be deemed a US person, Canada is under tremendous pressure from the United States to obey their master to the south. This situation has been the case since FATCA entered into our nightmares in 2010. Even after our own Canadian Government’s Jim Flaherty vociferously protested FATCA and its consequences on innocent Canadians, going so far as to take out full-page editorial pages in several major newspapers, FATCA was still voted into law by the agents/servants of the master to the south. I don’t think that this dynamic has changed much, although the United States is shrinking fast and its image abroad is getting worse by the day. Everyday it seems that it can’t get worse, but it does. Trump hasn’t even arrived and the US is already becoming near “Cold War” enemies with Russia, with China, with the Philippines and at odds with so many nations around the world. They are falling and falling fast, yet I doubt they will allow their FATCA extortion racket to get shut down so easily. There is too much money to be earned, to many victims to fleece, without any risk of electoral backlash. Their corruption and decay is beyond all belief and I fear that Canada is still afraid of entering into disaccord with the mafia-like system to our south. Is there any justice? I sadly doubt it, as when you are dealing with such obvious crooks and a mafia-like system, it is hard to fight back using the rule of law, especially when they wield a bigger stick than you do.
The First 100 Days Agenda of President Donald Trump :
https://meadows.house.gov/first-100-days
https://meadows.house.gov/issues/tax-reform
FATCA REPEAL is within the Tax Reform part of the First 100 Days Agenda.
@FuriousAC
In the very link that you provide, to Congressman Mark Meadow’s site, (https://meadows.house.gov/media-center/in-the-news/the-hill-lawmaker-seeks-to-investigate-obamas-foreign-tax-compliance-law) it states at the very end of the entry on the page:
S. Michael Chittenden of Miller & Chevalier, however, said that these proposals “do not have the likelihood of passing” since similar efforts failed in the past. The Treasury Department has already poured a significant amount of resources to implement FATCA stateside and negotiate the IGAs with other countries, he added.
FATCA inspired a global trend of financial transparency, such as the common reporting standard launched by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.
“FATCA is here to stay,” Chittenden said.
I totally agree with this analysis of the situation. As much as I too would like to believe that the entire FATCA/CBT issue would finally be given the attention necessary, I am resigned to the fact that it won’t happen and have already put my entire five member family on the waiting list for a renunciation appointment. Even if the situation would change, we will all still renounce, as there is too much uncertainty built into the entire US system and anything, perhaps something even worse than FATCA or CBT is possible (and probable) to be inflicted on expats or all US citizens in the future. This has all gone on for far too long and too many people have been made aware of the damage that this is doing to individuals, families, businesses and the overall US economy, yet nothing happens. Good riddance!
@FuriousAC
Dare we hope?
And then one wonders: IF FATCA was repealed- would the courts in Canada then rethink their treatment of Canadian citizens who are duals?
@George
Well you just darkened my mood!
In many political scenarios, it’s a very common ploy for an interest group like this “Freedom Caucus” to draw up a long list of demands. If the Glorious Leader does anything on the list, they claim credit.
Pity LBJ didn’t live to see these days. He would have been right in his element.
@Polly if it is any consolation the above George is not The George.
The comments in the referenced article from a compliance condors were written based on Clinton being elected it is an old article.
My personal view as someone who worked on the Hill for many years is of high expectation that the iga are doomed, fatca will face repeal and we have the best chance ever of seeing cbt fall.
To be blunt I told my teens they likely can stop saving for a renunciation fee. Note they are saving in cash in a box because of fatca.
To be even more blunt I am wondering at what point Canada stops defending the lawsuit because their Defense is now likely pointless.
Cheers
George the original which is far better than saying old
Two Georges??!! Got me confused for a bit there.
Although on one level Trump’s cabinet picks horrify me, on an other I’m inclined to think that given the current climate and “daring” it’s actually quite possible that FATCA or even CBT might be dumped.
After all, the opposition will have so much to howl at (raging tweet wars, tension with China, Obamacare discussions, Trump Hotel, Israel, Putin, FBI, CIA, generals, etc etc etc) that these relatively obscure issues that preoccupy us here might well not make the front page.
A possibly significant development:
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/16/trump-picks-us-rep-mulvaney-to-head-white-house-budget-office.html
If I recall correctly, Mulvaney co-sponsored the Meadows FATCA bill
There are four co-sponsors of the House kill-FATCA bill, including Mulvaney:
Rep. Mulvaney, Mick [R-SC-5]* 09/06/2016
Rep. Duncan, Jeff [R-SC-3]* 09/06/2016
Rep. Schweikert, David [R-AZ-6] 09/08/2016
Rep. Sanford, Mark [R-SC-1] 09/22/2016
https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/5935/cosponsors
http://maplesandbox.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Meadows-Repeal-FATCA.pdf
Thanks to (original) George for clarifying that the link in the other George’s comment is old news. We now know for a fact that a FATCA hearing *has* been scheduled for January after the new Congress has been sworn in. Keith Redmond and others will be in Washington at that time testifying on behalf of all of us. Keith speaks about this in the following interview:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/media-and-blog-articles-open-for-comments-part-3-of-3/comment-page-108/#comment-7746098
P.S. Thank you, Stephen, for the update. It’s a good thing the government isn’t a paramedic. Their patients would all die waiting for an ambulance!
@Dr. Kish….dittos on the thanks for the update AND all your work in this long slog. I just realised last year I think I sent a Christmas card……with ADCS money……..
ALL of this is going to get resolved and I know in my bones we are going to prevail in Canada, now in the USA and around the globe.
Yet there are TWO lingering causes which remain and the first one is regarding the treatment of Citizenship for Carol’s son (and all like him) and second ALL those that renounced during this period of dark US history must be given the chance to regain their US Citizenship if they VOLUNTARILY desire.
@Fred, “generals, etc etc etc…..”
If another interloper Fred shows up…just add “Stella Artois” after your name. 🙂
OK, reasonable people can have disagreements and it is indeed the reasonable people who clear the table when the silverware changes and say lets focus on OUR problem and forget about the rest……
I offer the following with goodwill…….
I am a Dove and not a Hawk….so i find it very strange that in the start of the 21st Century many clamoring for war were the same people in the 1960s protesting Vietnam!!! Clinton was a Vietnam protestor yet she bears responsibility for Libya.
I am confident that the world will find that the senior retired military officers placed in high level administration positions will mean that the USA is far less likely to go to war. One only has to look at who was supporting Clinton and who would have ended up in her Administration…..it was intellectual neocons whom most have never served a day in uniform, that were preaching a unipolar world in which the USA was leading and protecting and molding.
By way of example when you study Colin Powell and his influence in the Bush administration…he was the sobering influence emphasizing caution. Though he was given a bill of goods when the CIA essentially lied with the intelligence. The neocon civilians were chomping at the bit.
In 1980, the candidate was ridiculed as Ronald “RayGun” when the history shows that he kept the USA out of war and worked to reduce the nuclear arms race.
IF you are concerned about war and peace as in being a Dove, then the generals will allow you to sleep at night.
The last thing any soldier of any rank wants is going to war. Same applies to their family.
There was a lesson learned from Vietnam and it is now hardwired into every person in uniform. The problem in the USA is that so few people are in uniform today and decisions of war and peace are made by politicians supported by an uninvolved public that has no skin in the game.
In 2001, some (homelanders) went to War and the rest…..well they went shopping…..with their taxcut.
“Generals” by their very nature and in this era are “talk talk” whilst the neocon/neoliberal intellectuals are “war war.” A cabinet of neocons is a cabinet of war paid for by the few.
Peace
@Iota, I feel like an astrologist reading a horoscope!! Politically, the stars are all in alignment…….
I think Solomon Yue is one of the unsong heroes to our cause. This is HIS issue and he is plugged in with the GOP.
Rand Paul was re-elected and he wants to win this to affirm that he was right. We have a powerful ally in the Seante
Priebus now works in the Oval Office and his fingerprints are all over repeal of FATCA and the GOP Platform.
Meadows has scheduled hearings for January in the new Congress and he will control the information flow meaning wonderful sob stories. Keith Redmond is going to be brilliant in supporting this.
We have Democrats Abroad essentially onboard with their research. I have found long term expats to be far more practical than political so they will be singing on the same hymnal. Whats the worry at the dinner table..supporting Churck Schummer or getting a new mortgage from LandesBanke?
Mulvaney at OMB will be useful for all sorts of reasons!! Low friends…..high places….
FATCA is like a child wearing a t-shirt that says; Who is my daddy? (Yes I saw such a shocking shirt on a toddler). With FATCA we know who is NOT the daddy…..thankfully so they do not care about FATCA.
The elephant in the room is naturally that we have a repeal promise in WRITING subject to the GOP controlling the House, Senate and POTUS which….drumroll…….was met.
We are fortunate that the bug-a-boo with FATCA is that in GOP circles its a Constitutional issue so with them by their nature…..it matters. GOP types will die on a hill if its a constitutional matter.
I am FAR happier that we have a written commitment in a manifesto as that is far more valuable that had it not been in the manifesto but we had the promise from the nominee. On this issue the GOP regardless if it was to grab votes or not, they are painted into the corner. They know, we know, there is NO excuse for not delivering.
The IGAs are history first, FATCA is history second. Likely is all new FBAR guidance from the Secretary. I hold my breath on CBT repeal.
I’d like to think that generals, knowing firsthand about the carnage of war would try to keep the US out of conflicts, but what happens when capitalist Trump intersects with “drain the swamp” Trump? Can Trump ignore the siren song of US defence contractors when he says he wants to maintain a military that’s second to none in the world?
…”When there are calls to cut the defense budget, to withdraw and stop intervening in world conflicts, or to use older equipment available, contractors and lobbyists respond by arguing that the country “needs a new generation of equipment,” or that the Pentagon needs to continue a steady stream of purchasing in order “sustain the defense industrial base” to prepare for the next war.”…
Would any general disagree that the US should be second to none when it comes to military spending? Unfortunately the US needs to create conflict in order to maintain a steady flow of cash for that purpose.
…”The United States, which has assumed the duty of exporting peace, democracy, and stability throughout the world, can only do so with a sizeable and dominant military force that is prepared to act on a moment’s notice. Such mobilization can only be accomplished with an innovative and successful defense sector. Therefore, whether it be through the reinforcement of allies or through direct intervention, the United States must always be involved in a conflict in order to maintain the vitality of its defense partners. With its blank checks, lack of oversight, and belief that no one should question those contractors and companies that protect the nation, the government has allowed the defense system and contractors to act wastefully and fraudulent, has permitted companies and contractors to take advantage of government spending, and has cleared the way for the industry to exercise its influence over the nation’s politics in the pursuit of greater profit.”
http://harvardpolitics.com/united-states/waste-greed-fraud-business-makes-worlds-greatest-army/
Hey Original George, you are absolutely right. I could’ve left out the generals part, but I was thinking of General “Mad Dog” Mattis, who scares me. In general though I agree with you; often the military end up the peacemakers. Perhaps because they actually know what they are talking about, both in terms of the usefulness of military power and its limits. Regarding Trump v Clinton, I actually feared that Clinton would be more likely to use military power than either Trump or Obama (I have never forgotten Clinton’s political opportunism in supporting the Iraq adventure; probably a need to act tough to avoid accusations of weakness). Perhaps Trump, being unpredictable and widely perceived abroad as the alpha male ready to use military force will, in some circumstances, be able to get away with bluff where another leader would have to actually use force.
I agree that Libya was a mistake (that Obama tried to resist), and Europe was driving this one, for once. Iraq was an obvious mistake, kudos to Chirac for refusing to get into that. And I think that going into Syria would have been a mistake too (what is happening now is terrible, but the alternatives would probably have meant leaving it to ISIS, hardly reassuring). Heck, even Afghanistan was probably a mistake.
Reading about Kennedy’s Bay of Pigs mistake it appears that he later regretted having listened to some of his war-eager generals. And used that lesson to manage the missile crisis differently.
Anyway, I hope you are right and that the Trump Govt, with its many faults, will not take us to war. And I agree it is perhaps less prone to do so than a Clinton Govt may have been.
And to get back to our subject, I really hope we get some relief on the FATCA front. Reading above I discover that my congressman David Schweikert is a co-sponsor of the bill; I wrote him after the election.
As for Stella Artois, that’s a good idea! Although ABInBev isn’t very Belgian anymore. I’ll distinguish myself as Orval Fred if need be, and will get you a Stella or an Orval if you come to Brussels. Cheers!
@ George “O” for original not old
I knew it wasn’t you last night. I just dropped in today to see if you’d set everyone straight. You have. You never disappoint. 🙂
I think we have some nice little anti-FATCA duckies lined up right now and one of them will be swimming in a very tight circle around the Donald (Priebus)… IF he makes it into the Oval Office. The machinations to keep him out are absolutely stunning, including a very quick embedding of “fake news” into the lexicon. It’s the tactic of accusing your adversary of precisely what you do yourself. Even though I observe all this from not nearly far enough away, the chaos and the uncertainty still affect me.
@ MuzzledNoMore
Speaking of Keith Redmond going to Washington. Have you or anyone else had trouble viewing his facebook page? Except for one post, everyone thing else is blanked out when I try. Maybe it’s just a maintenance thing. I hope it isn’t a dirty, low-down, rotten FB censorship thing. I first noticed this yesterday and it persists today.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/AmericanExpatriates/