Here is the video of the meeting that took place this past Monday, December 5, 2016 at the Atwater Library in Montreal. Once again, John Richardson and Andrew Grossman meet up to discuss, analyze and muse over the situation expats find themselves thanks to the complexity to the U.S. tax code. Bizarre!
Super thanks to David Zimmerly for making the trek (through snow), setting up/videoing, and already having the finished product!
ENJOY & please share widely!
A set of posts form a perfect companion set to this video. On John writes:
This series of posts developed from my “Educational Outreach” program for Americans abroad. It is an effort to respond in a practical way to the questions that people have.
“When in Rome, live as a Homelander” does, when elsewhere, live as they live elsewhere.”
Chapter 5: Living Clean – How to live outside the United States in an #FBAR and #FATCA world
Results of search: "US citizens abroad come clean" https://t.co/MfcAU1EDPK … … – Q: Are #Americansabroad? Filthy, dirty, sweaty or grungy?
— Citizenship Lawyer (@ExpatriationLaw) April 19, 2015
Americans abroad are constantly told that they should “come clean”. They should file their U.S. taxes. This assumes that they are somehow “unclean” or perhaps “dirty”. The life of an “American abroad” is about three things:
1. “Thinking Clean” – The importance of “thinking clean” while living abroad.
2. “Coming Clean” – Atoning for the sins of “living abroad” and entering the U.S. tax system; and
3. “Living Clean” – Living as a Homeland American outside the United States
Whether you have yet to decide about coming into compliance or you have filed (but are unsure whether you or your tax compliance firm has actually done all that is required), check out this set of posts to get a taste of what’s involved:
“Coming Into Tax Compliance Book” – How Americans can come into U.S. tax compliance in a FATCA world
You can’t make this stuff up!
Many, many thanks John, Andrew and David!!! It was a great discussion and the video quality is excellent. I never expected to be able to see this so soon after the event. There’s nothing clear nor clean about my peculiar situation but … for now … I’m only a criminal on the other side of the border where I will never go again. I breathe but not as easily as I would like to. It made John wince a bit when Andrew said “compliance condor” but that term was hatched by Roger Conklin back in 2013 and then I flew off with it in a haiku.
FATCA Condor swoops
To rip the rotting flesh off
The C.B.T. corpse.
Roger Conklin wrote September 11, 2013 at 6:31 pm
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/09/11/fatca-losing-its-way-by-victoria-ferauge-and-lynne-swanson/comment-page-2/#comment-531301
“Educate yourself and consider this list before involving a “cross-border” professional!”
Priceless, and so true.
I would add, because they cannot condone this, that you must choose what you tell that professional.
For instance my local retirement plan may or may not be to the liking of the United States. But it’s totally legal in the country where I reside and that’s all I care about and I choose not to burden the IRS with the details. And if I sell an apt where I live there is no way in hell the IRS is going know about it (no, it’s not going to go on one of the FBAR accounts). Again, totally legal where I live, all (hefty) taxes paid here. I give data to my tax preparer so he can prepare a presentable return that makes the IRS happy (presumably) without confusing them. And should I win the lottery here there’s no way I’m going to volunteer that information to the IRS and get taxed on the proceeds.
Because, indeed, “full” compliance is quasi-impossible and attempting to attain it is ridiculously costly.
@Fred – “…my local retirement plan may or may not be to the liking of the United States. But it’s totally legal in the country where I reside and that’s all I care about and I choose not to burden the IRS with the details.”
Completely agree.
I’m impressed and pleased that hate speech will not be tolerated on IBS. Well done.
Providing the public with this information is great, but what I simply can’t understand is why nearly every report about the damage that FATCA has caused, never, absolutely never, has the presence of a lawmaker from the United States to comment or respond. It just seems, for over five years already, as if lawmaking in the United States operates in a vacuum, where those most impacted and hurt by legislation, in this case FATCA, are left to discuss it over and over among themselves with no interaction or presence from any lawmakers, Senators, Congressmen/women. People just repeat the terrible facts and the damage that it has caused, yet nobody even bemoans or mentions that “we unfortunately don’t have any lawmakers with us today”, or “the lawmakers or diplomats we asked to join us refused” and give their names. Apparently U.S. “democracy” operates in a bubble, far removed from those that bear the brunt of its most detrimental and nefarious effects. Why wouldn’t a Senator from across the border attend the presentation shown above? Why wouldn’t the U.S. Consul from Montréal attend? Were they invited? Were journalists invited? Talking amongst ourselves is fine, but there are supposedly lawmakers, elected by citizens within the country, who drafted and voted this horrible and destructive legislation into law. Aren’t U.S. lawmakers accountable to their constituents, accountable to their citizens? Am I asking too much from what has today become a totally undemocratic and unrepresentative system, a total mockery of democracy and its most basic principles?
They would pay attention if you had a spare 50K or so to contribute to their re election fund or maybe more to hire a lobbyist. Otherwise they couldn’t care less.
@Tom
I agree. It is a shame.
I guess this is why Trump won. People thought that nobody was listening to them- hearing them. The question is whether Trump will or not hear them, too.
@Tom
Even if they heard us, we don’t count, (except to fleece of course). We have left the plantation
@Tom
If an Englishman goes to live and work in France, then British lawmakers, Parliamentarians will have little or nothing to do with him. He pays his tax in and obeys the laws of France. The US is unique in extending their leash to hold their citizens abroad yet in the same way they want little to do with them except of course to tax them.
What does surprise me is that there has not been a US senator or Congressman who has a son or daughter living permanently abroad whom this travesty has affected. Why has no one taken up a personal cross against it?
Perhaps part of the problem is the incredible passivity of Americans Abroad. I know politically active people who just consider that filing taxes in the US is their duty. They pay handsome sums to comply and file taxes, and hardly flinch when handing over data from joint accounts involving their non-American spouses. I have been to meetings where nobody spoke of this until I did. Then they nod and sigh and agree. Then they have their own little deal that makes things bearable, such as having most of their accounts in the US, or being quite poor, or whatever. A handful of others have renounced and dropped the subject. To be fair a few have attempted to relay our plight to higher authorities in DA and others do seem quite angry.
All I know is if you give up and say your efforts are futile then you’ve already lost. I also refuse to be defined by those who don’t advocate for change, especially those Uncle Toms who think that CBT is ok.
I don’t know what it exactly takes to get a lawmaker to get them to listen to you, but I’m happy to report that I think I might have cracked the code through persistence. On two occasions my congressman’s office has returned phone calls and letters – the latest being last Friday in response to two recent FATCA-related letters and a follow up phone call I made to his office. Unfortunately I wasn’t able to pick up the call last Friday, but they left a number and person to talk to specifically about FATCA, which I plan to do on Monday.
I’m also in direct communication with my MP here in Canada and recently become included in a group that intends to make the Liberal government accountable for their campaign promises. She has agreed to meet with with us in January.
I’m not saying this to blow my own horn, but to encourage others in believing that every bit helps, even if they don’t appear to be listening. One day they might be listening and looking for feedback, and you don’t want the Uncle Toms or Stepford Wives to be our only voice, do you?
Thanks to those who haven’t given up, including those who participated in bringing us this very valuable video. All of this contributes to the documentation of the egregious harms cause by CBT and FATCA, when someone finally starts to listen.
@Fred, “I know politically active people who just consider that filing taxes in the US is their duty. ”
I know many similar people and they do NOT file tax returns where they are resident and I know as fact they should be filing locally and paying tax locally!!
@George
I too have heard of people doing that. Some retirees in Spain to be specific.
I suppose they file as though they haven’t left the US. That’s one way of getting around having two tax masters.
I just cannot believe this is the only country in the whole universe which taxes based on citizenship. No other country does it. I have been living outside of the US for more than 10 years and still should pay taxes. I visited US just 2-3 times over this period to see some friends, do not use any services provided by the US government and pay hefty passport fees if I need to add pages / replace my passport. Why am I liable for US taxes if I do not live there?
@Charlese
You ask:
It’s precisely because you do not live there that you are responsible for paying taxes. If you leave the Homeland, you are leaving the Homelanders to pay the cost of running the U.S. government. The Homelanders left at home will then have to pay more than their “fair share”. You see Americans exist only for the purpose of paying to run the government. Why should you be able to both (1) leave America for a better life and (2) somehow avoid your obligations to support the U.S. Government?
It makes no sense at all for you to not have to pay. Frankly, you should be paying higher U.S. taxes than those who remain in the Homeland.
@USCitizenAbroad
This is indeed the case. I am paying higher US taxes than people who live in the US. US residents have a number of tax minimization schemes such as 401k, IRA, mortgages, etc. US expats are unfairly hit with unexplained tax just because they have US passport. What a disgrace. I hate my own country now for not allowing me to live normal life as I choose. I have a number of friends and colleagues – British, German, French, Chinese, Italians – they do not worry about these things. US basically punishes its citizens for choosing to live abroad. But I had to leave as I couldn’t find a job in my country – US government cannot create good jobs for its people to stay, yet taxes them when they find these jobs abroad. I cannot live normal life, I cannot plan retirement, I am making less than my colleagues only because US chooses to tax based on citizenship… Millions of Americans are suffering, yet US does not care… Awful!
@Charlese
You write:
Yes, well put. The point is that if you are “U.S. Property Abroad” two things happen:
First, you are denied the “tax benefits” that good Homelanders have; and
Second, you are independently hit with special surcharges as punishment for having escaped.
Let me give you an example that illustrates both principles, the family home.
First, although the mortgage interest deduction is not denied to you in theory it is of no practical benefit because it is not available to you in your country of residence, and
Second, because of “phantom capital gains” you could be in a position where you would lose money on the sale of your house (but because of U.S. exchange rate fluctuations) actually have in gain in USD and pay a capital gains tax. If you don’t like it, just move back to America.
You say:
First, it’s not your country. It’s the country that regards you as its property.
Second, the fastest growing source of hatred for America is none other than American’s abroad.
By, the way you might ask:
Q. “Why does the Homeland hate me so much?”
A. It hates you because of your freedoms!
I heard that “All Roads Lead To Renunciation”. Could you be next?
Renunciation is the ONLY sane thing to do. It is true that there is no or little interest in any of the hardships that US CBT poses on its chattel by legislators. I gave up on the system long ago and renounced five years ago, as soon as FATCA was on the books. It was more than obvious to me that nothing would be done to rectify this injustice. The US thrives on injustices and there are now so many that it would be impossible to address each one as it should be done in a true democracy.
I also must comment on the attitude of US expats to these injustices being perpetrated against them. I actually believe that deep down they really don’t want it to change. I know that sounds strange, but even watching the video above I hear, yet again, one outrage after another presented with the typical American folksy humor, with chuckles and laughter when talking about yet another injustice. Perhaps that’s the typical American way of expressing displeasure, by turning into a “cute” joke, but that sadly will never get anyone’s blood boiling and lead to change. Americans have had CBT since the Civil War because they are incapable of challenging an injustice as other societies would do. They are ever so obedient and ever so intimidated and terrified of their own government, so they just put up with CBT, FATCA and all the other indignities that come with being a US person. I really don’t hold out much hope, as the problem is both one of a disconnect between lawmakers and the citizen, as well as an extremely passive and obedient citizenry. Such an arrangement will never stop what is going on, nor all of the other similar injustices of living in ‘The Land of the Free’.
Renunciation is the ONLY sane thing to do. It is true that there is no or little interest in any of the hardships that US CBT poses on its chattel by legislators. I gave up on the system long ago and renounced five years ago, as soon as FATCA was on the books. It was more than obvious to me that nothing would be done to rectify this injustice. The US thrives on injustices and there are now so many that it would be impossible to address each one as it should be done in a true democracy.
I also must comment on the attitude of US expats to these injustices being perpetrated against them. I actually believe that deep down they really don’t want it to change. I know that sounds strange, but even watching the video above I hear, yet again, one outrage after another presented with the typical American folksy humor, with chuckles and laughter when talking about yet another injustice. Perhaps that’s the typical American way of expressing displeasure, by turning into a “cute” joke, but that sadly will never get anyone’s blood boiling and lead to change. Americans have had CBT since the Civil War because they are incapable of challenging an injustice as other societies would do. They are ever so obedient and ever so intimidated and terrified of their own government, so they just put up with CBT, FATCA and all the other indignities that come with being a US person. I really don’t hold out much hope, as the problem is both one of a disconnect between lawmakers and the citizen, as well as an extremely passive and obedient citizenry. Such an arrangement will never stop what is going on, nor all of the other similar injustices of having a connection to’The Land of the Free’.
Well said, Victor!
@Victor
Great comments. Like you, I renounced very quickly once I knew what was going on, also five years ago. It wasn’t just this situation but looking at how the U.S. response is to every situation, that made me realize they simply could not be trusted much less ever expected, to address these issues (or any) fairly. After all “exceptionalism” automatically displaces that idea, by its very nature, doesn’t it?
One thing though. If you have the impression that the presenters, had a “folksy humour” about all this, nothing could be further from the truth. I know John Richardson through the work of ADCS-ADSC & ADCT as well as other expat activities since the FATCA Forum here in Toronto Dec 2012. I only met Andy Grossman for the first time at the meeting though I “know” him from exchanges online here, on FB, Twitter and through video and his writings. Neither one of them have anything less than a complete disdain for all of this. If they laugh, it is at how completely unbelievable this stuff is. And when something is recorded, a certain amount of toning it down happens. Watch some of the other stuff we have available……….
The real problem seems to me to be (and in this order)
*the American govt & the absurdity of CBT & Cook v Tait – at this point in time
*the complete lack of due dilligence on the part of the govt
*the compliance industry determining what the laws are (esp listening to tax lawyers define citizenship law) when it is clearly impossible for consistent application of U.S. law with the laws of other countries
*the compliance industry scaring the living hell out of everyone, esp when they emphasize things like the Reed Amendment, the never-passed EXPATRIOT Act, etc. There is no excuse for encouraging people to file forms “just in case” and taking positions that are unnecessary, over-the-top and so on. I would think someday, they may face some real issues here.
I actually am encouraged when I read that out of 9 million expatriates, only 1 million file.There probably are people who still don’t know but after the last five years, one would think many DO know and still, they choose NOT TO COMPLY. As time has gone on, people seem to realize there are all kinds of reasons to suggest that the U.S. simply will not be able to apply CBT. It is unworkable. And there are some rather fierce people behind the lawsuits etc. Isaac Brock is a testament to the fact that not all Americans are cowards.
As Ms Albright intoned ” There should be a special place in hell” for those Americans abroad, those very few, who are tax compliant, think they represent all Americans abroad and suggest programs such as SCE/SH and watered-down versions of RBT. There is no way these people are in tune with the majority of expats. They are “obedient, intimidated and terrified” of the government because they cannot let go of what they think they are. Americans. All of what we were taught is based upon false ideas. How this is not obvious to everyone is completely beyond me. The lucky ones are the ones who see it for what it is and move on with their lives. It is NOT a country of law, as claimed. It most certainly is NOT “The Land of the Free.” What a joke.
I think the anger will grow more and more and the non-compliance will turn into blatant civil disobedience. It’s already there. Life is messy. But give it time. Something this unjust cannot remain contained forever.
As USCA said earlier:
Kind of explains why so many of us are still here, when we’re already out.
“Isaac Brock is a testament to the fact that not all Americans are cowards.”
Hey, that’s not fair. They didn’t have the technology yet. If they had nukes or drones, the American who killed Isaac Brock could very well have proven himself to be a coward.
@Patricia Moon writes:
Reading this I am reminded of the old Crest toothpaste ad:
“Seven out of eight dentists recommend Crest.”
Perhaps the message to Americans abroad should be:
“Seven out of eight Americans abroad recommend non-compliance.”
About your point that “there are some rather fierce people behind the lawsuits, etc.”
Yes, but mostly those “fierce people” are no longer Americans. These are people who have renounced.
@Victor is generally correct. IN GENERAL Americans have neither the courage nor the will to confront injustice. I am reminded of the following comment that appeared at MapleSandbox.ca
http://maplesandbox.ca/2015/no-crisis-see-you-in-court/comment-page-1/#comment-472672
But, I offer a second observation on the psyche of those affected by FATCA, CBT, etc. ….
An equally large problem is the unwillingness of Americans abroad to oppose FATCA, FBAR and CBT in a general way. (Regardless of how it affects them personally.)t For most Americans abroad, their involvement and concern ends on the day that their problem is solved. This has created an environment where the Americans abroad employ a “divide and conquer” strategy against themselves.
The most egregious example of “divide and conquer” is the Dems Abroad (Stepford Wives) FATCA “same country exemption”. This was a strategy to create a “carve out” for a small group of U.S. tax compliant Americans. The rest (those who were not tax compliant) get thrown under the bus. Furthermore the FATCA SCE proposal is supportive of FATCA and tolerant of all the harm that it does to the citizens and residents of other nations.
Americans are probably the most obedient and compliant people in the world. Joke is they imagine that America is “The land of the free and the home of the brave.”
@USCA
Well, they had this attitude before renouncing and their behaviour is an example….
Some of us didn’t have that fierce attitude before renouncing. Some of us renounced when we didn’t even know yet about 9/10 of the iceberg, when the 1/10 that we saw was already enough to compel us to renounce.