"I complied with human rights-violating U.S. renunciation rules — and this leaves a bitter taste." https://t.co/H5qRkzhxxq
— Citizenship Lawyer (@ExpatriationLaw) August 24, 2016
Click on the link in the above tweet to see the complete discussion.
The bottom line is that Dr. Stephen Kish – Chair of the Alliance For The Defence of Canadian Sovereignty and plaintiff in the Bopp FATCA Lawsuit, has formally renounced U.S. citizenship. He performed this act in Iceland which is the final resting place of Robert James Fischer – one of the most famous and well known cases of U.S. citizenship relinquishment.
‘This would be to use the Tax Treaty as a “sword” and not as a “shield”. Actually, this strikes me as a good idea. At least this will ensure that the Government of Canada is aware of this issue. They either will “go to bat” for Canadian citizens or will agree that Canadian citizens can be claimed by the USA’
We already know the answer to that. The only question is whether Canada’s courts will agree with the government.
I think the rest of your list of possible reasons looks a lot more likely, why potential challengers have avoided challenging.
@Malice
You say there are those who want to be Americans and others who don’t. Fair enough, but for anyone to march down to a US consulate and take any administrative action it would involve at least some acknowledgment that they are US citizens. Why would anyone who doesn’t think of themselves as an American go down to the US consulate and qualify themselves as someone they feel they aren’t, that is a US citizen – even if it’s for the express purpose of removing themselves as one? Why would any non-US citizen leave on the US’s terms when you can do what Gwen and Ginny are doing, that is actually behaving like someone who isn’t something – on their, not some foreign government’s terms?
BubbleBusting asks:
“Why would anyone who doesn’t think of themselves as an American go down to the US consulate and qualify themselves as someone they feel they aren’t, that is a US citizen – even if it’s for the express purpose of removing themselves as one? ”
and also asks
” Why would any non-US citizen leave on the US’s terms when you can do what Gwen and Ginny are doing, that is actually behaving like someone who isn’t something – on their, not some foreign government’s terms?”
Answer: to get rid of the curse of US citizenship so as not to be hassled any further by a foreign government nor discriminated against in one’s home country for being a ‘US citizen’. Obviously lots of people are doing this now even with all the compliance issues and costs. This is not right to subject people to form confusion, penalties, taxes, compliance costs, anxiety…. Those who do not want to be US citizens should be given a reasonable, easy, inexpensive path to exit. Home countries should be working with the USA to allow for this.
further to above specifically regarding why don’t people just do what Gwen and Ginny are doing. You mean sue the government of the country they live in? People should not have to do what Gwen and Ginny are doing either.
Gwen and Ginny are doing nothing to appease the US government.
@Bubblebustin
You addressed the following questions to MaliceInWonderland. As an accidental American, I thought I’d also pipe up with my answers.
“You say there are those who want to be Americans and others who don’t. Fair enough, but for anyone to march down to a US consulate and take any administrative action it would involve at least some acknowledgment that they are US citizens. Why would anyone who doesn’t think of themselves as an American go down to the US consulate and qualify themselves as someone they feel they aren’t, that is a US citizen – even if it’s for the express purpose of removing themselves as one?”
Even if a person doesn’t have American parents and has never lived in the US, a US place of birth forces the issue. For example, one of the financial institutions I deal with no longer accept US citizens as clients; they haven’t closed the accounts of existing US clients, but that’s only because they cannot retroactively identify them (their new application forms explicitly ask about US citizenship as part of the screening process). Moreover, advances in technology make it easier and easier for the US to track down the individuals it considers citizens, so ignoring the issue is likely going to cause problems for the anyone with US indica trying to live a normal life outside of the US.
“Why would any non-US citizen leave on the US’s terms when you can do what Gwen and Ginny are doing, that is actually behaving like someone who isn’t something – on their, not some foreign government’s terms?”
Much as I respect Gwen and Ginny for standing their ground, I have no faith that the USG will even acknowledge, never mind abide by, a foreign court’s ruling. The US considers itself the law onto itself and that’s unlikely to change while the US remains the world’s preeminent super power. That’s why I finally chose to get my CLN and will submit all the required paperwork, including the 8854, to sever ties cleanly.
Here’s my usual disclaimer: It’s unfair, it’s not right, etc. But it is what it is. Everyone has to decide for themselves how to deal with the situation. The stress of dealing with this can be a crushing burden and I personally believe that, here of all places, we need to be compassionate with one another because all of us have completely different circumstances to consider. (That last comment was not directed at anyone in particular. I’ve found this site to be a fantastic source of information and support, and hope it remains a safe space for all of us to be there for each other.)
@Westcoaster
Your comment reminds me of something that I heard/read once to the effect that: “People are now temporarily pretending to be American citizens, because that is the only way that they can renounce U.S. citizenship”.
@Westcoaster @USCA
So what happens to those who won’t pretend they’re US citizens?
@Bubblebustin
Fear can panic a person into wishful thinking- and then that wishful thinking can become like “fact”, like “reality” for that person. In the end, Ginny and Gwen are still dependent on the ruling of the judge. The laws of the countries are what will decide the issue, and not what we would like to see happen: JUSTICE.
But we just have to look at all the collateral damage in the world which happens before any kind of justice can be reached, if ever, to realise that the world is not a fair place. I just had visitors and we were talking about the Holocaust- and many survived out of pure luck and nothing else. It was oftentimes random.
But we can still hope that integrity prevails. Perhaps anyone in their right mind has to hope for this. If we dont, then despair takes over about life in general. ( This makes is easy to understand why people who have mothers who did not love them become so emotionally sick.)
@USCitizenAbroad
“Your comment reminds me of something that I heard/read once to the effect that: “People are now temporarily pretending to be American citizens, because that is the only way that they can renounce U.S. citizenship”.
That makes no sense to me, whatsoever. Either these people are legally US citizens (in which case they are not pretending) or mentally ill (because why else go through the expense and trouble of going through the expatriation process).
@Bubblebustin
“So what happens to those who won’t pretend they’re US citizens?”
I don’t think the word ‘pretend’ means what you think it does. You seem to use it as a way of conveying a state of deep denial of legal realities.
With rare exceptions — such as the children of diplomats, if I recall correctly — anyone born on US soil automatically becomes an American citizen. No pretending there, that’s just a fact. Anyone with at least one US parent who’s spent the requisite amount of time in the US to confer US citizenship to his/her offspring is a US citizenship. No pretending there, although the lack of a US birthplace currently makes it easier to ‘pretend’ otherwise, the individual is in fact legally a US citizen.
As with most people in serious denial, whatever situation they’re in denial about rarely goes away and actually often gets worse the more they ignore it. It’s like a sore tooth ignored for days, weeks, months. Initially it might’ve meant a simple filling, but months of pain and stress later, it means a root canal and a crown instead.
@Westcoaster
You write:
au contraire
Here is what is going on.
A significant number of U.S. born people who moved to Canada and became Canadian citizens with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship (which = relinquishment under the Nationality laws) are now being told by various law firms that:
No. No. No. Because you do NOT have a CLN you will always and forever be treated as a U.S. citizen unless you get a CLN. Since you will always be treated as a U.S. citizen without a CLN, you had better line up to renounce. Oh and by the way, this means that you must file 5 years of tax returns and also you just might be a “covered expatriate” and have to pay the exit tax.
What then happens is that (even those these people know they relinquished U.S. citizenship, they say: Yes, okay. I will do this and I will go through the renunciation process.
In other words, it’s the fear that is instilled into them by the compliance industry. Would you call the fear a form of (to use your words) mental illness?
Does it make sense now?
So, Gwen and Ginny are pretending that they aren’t US citizens?
“No pretending there, although the lack of a US birthplace currently makes it easier to ‘pretend’ otherwise, the individual is in fact legally a US citizen.”
Well, evidently it’s a case of he said, she said. The US says that my kids are US citizens, I say they aren’t. They’re on Canadian soil. If they want them, they’re going to have to send in a SEAL team to retrieve them.
“” Why would any non-US citizen leave on the US’s terms when you can do what Gwen and Ginny are doing, that is actually behaving like someone who isn’t something – on their, not some foreign government’s terms?”
Answer: to get rid of the curse of US citizenship so as not to be hassled any further by a foreign government nor discriminated against in one’s home country for being a ‘US citizen’. Obviously lots of people are doing this now even with all the compliance issues and costs. This is not right to subject people to form confusion, penalties, taxes, compliance costs, anxiety…. Those who do not want to be US citizens should be given a reasonable, easy, inexpensive path to exit. Home countries should be working with the USA to allow for this.”
True, but by doing so is to accept the unlawful premise that one is a citizen of the US when they are not. Seems to me to be a lot like voting in the up coming US election and then trying to claim to the US and the nation you are a citizen of that you have never been a USC.
@Westcoaster
“Your comment reminds me of something that I heard/read once to the effect that: “People are now temporarily pretending to be American citizens, because that is the only way that they can renounce U.S. citizenship”.
That makes no sense to me, whatsoever. Either these people are legally US citizens (in which case they are not pretending) or mentally ill (because why else go through the expense and trouble of going through the expatriation process).”
Under the law of the land they were born and international law, my children are Japanese citizens and Japanese citizens only. Your view seems to be that due to a law in the land of one of their patents, that they are only pretending to be Japanese citizens but are in fact USC. How is it that the the only “true” law is US law and Japanese and international just “pretend” law outside the US?
“Under the law of the land they were born and international law, my children are Japanese citizens and Japanese citizens only. Your view seems to be that due to a law in the land of one of their patents, that they are only pretending to be Japanese citizens but are in fact USC. How is it that the the only “true” law is US law and Japanese and international just “pretend” law outside the US?”
Exactly as Japan T said… HIS “children are Japanese citizens and Japanese citizens only.” and mine are Canadian citizens only. We’re not going to jump through the hoops like obedient little sea-mammals at Sea World in Toronto for the fish (the CLN). As Japan T stated succinctly in more eloquent words than I could. The US seems to think that US Law holds for the entire world and everyone else’s doesn’t count…even on the soil of their home countries.
“In other words, some people may simply be saying: Too bad, so sad, not paying any exit tax. You might think I owe it, but Canada will not help you collect it.”
The STATE will not, so they say now, but what about banks facing huge losses if they don’t?
“In their case all they need to do is show tax compliance for five year …”
Oh, is that all? This is the exact problem for me. Can’t do the five year thing. Can’t do a one. Why should citizens of other conntries file taxes for a foreign country. How can a dual claim to have no meaningful relationship with a country they file tax returns with? This seems to me to be a catch 22. To get the exemption, they must not have any kind of meaningful relationship yet must file tax returns. Filing tax returns certainly sounds like a meaningful relationship to me. I have had a lot of meaningful relationships that were a hell of a lot less intrusive, a hell of a lot less demanding of time and a hell of a lot less demanding of money and nowhere near as stressful.
Anyone have the IRS’s definition o “meaningful relationship”. My bet is that it means precisely what the IRS wants it to mean at any particular moment.
@USCitizenAbroad
“What then happens is that (even those these people know they relinquished U.S. citizenship, they say: Yes, okay. I will do this and I will go through the renunciation process.”
Thanks for clarifying. Not sure I’d call that pretending, but at least that gives me context for the original quote.
@The_Animal1970, Japan T
If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. You may feel that your children don’t inherit US citizenship from their US parent, but that’s not the case legally. Given advances in technology and the Big Brother era we’ve entered, I very much doubt your children will be able to avoid the consequences of ignoring this reality. Though not saddled with a US birthplace, they will be easy enough for the USG to find before they become adults, which will cause problems opening bank accounts in the respective countries they live. An even worse-case scenario is if the US reintroduces conscription while they are between the ages of 18 to 25.
Again, I’m not trying to pick a fight. But I just don’t believe that you are doing yourselves, or your children, any favours by refusing to acknowledge the global scope and strength of US law.
@Westcoaster
“Again, I’m not trying to pick a fight. But I just don’t believe that you are doing yourselves, or your children, any favours by refusing to acknowledge the global scope and strength of US law.”
By running scared for the CLNs and IRS forms you are only solving your immediate problem and doing nothing for the future but making the beast fat.
The only way to solve the problem is here wherever that may be and not in in the USA .Ginny and Gwenn are taking the only road possible for everyone and not just for themselves.
@WestCoaster
I will have to look/remember but I just read today that no branch of the US govt currently has any intent to re-instate the draft.This was in regard to renunciation due to avoidance of Selective Service registration……I will look for it.
As far as I understand, there is nothing in the CDN IGA lawsuit that would require the US to abide by anything. This only concerns the turning over of personal information by the banks to the CRA and then on to the IRS. Only CDN actions.
And as to children born abroad automatically being U.S. citizens, that would apply should one think that U.S, law applies outside it’s jurisdiction. Why do you think the US will automatically find such children? I am not trying to pick a fight either, just curious why you would think this is so……….
@Robert Ross
“By running scared for the CLNs and IRS forms you are only solving your immediate problem and doing nothing for the future but making the beast fat.”
Like I said, all of us have to act according to our particular circumstances.
“The only way to solve the problem is here wherever that may be and not in in the USA .Ginny and Gwenn are taking the only road possible for everyone and not just for themselves.”
I absolutely think that Ginny and Gwen are brave for standing up for themselves and others. I just don’t believe that anything will help, as long as the US rules the world. Clearly, you (and Ginny and Gwen) believe otherwise and I’m hope you’re right.
@Patricia Moon
“I will have to look/remember but I just read today that no branch of the US govt currently has any intent to re-instate the draft.This was in regard to renunciation due to avoidance of Selective Service registration……I will look for it.”
A couple of month ago, the US Senate overwhelmingly passed a billion defence bill that included an amendment that would require women to register for the draft — also known as the selective service — for the first time in history.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/15/politics/senate-approves-women-draft/
Given this recent amendment, as well as all the craziness going on in the world, there is a very strong possibility that the US is indeed gearing up to bring conscription back.
“And as to children born abroad automatically being U.S. citizens, that would apply should one think that U.S, law applies outside it’s jurisdiction. Why do you think the US will automatically find such children? I am not trying to pick a fight either, just curious why you would think this is so”
In Japan T’s case, he is registered with the Japanese government as a US citizen so it wouldn’t be difficult for the USG to track him and his offspring down. Canadians currently have an easier time living under the radar, but that will change the more information gets exchanged. More and more, countries are sacrificing privacy in the hope of gaining security. The_Animal1970’s wife no doubt has a Canadian SIN, which her banks have access to, so once the USG sorts through all the data the Canadian government gave them last fall and will continue to provide, it’s just a matter of time before they find her. It would be an easy step from there to check if she’s given birth, because that’s all a matter of public record.
Right now, I don’t think the systems are completely in place yet for the USG to do such a deep dive and connect all the dots. However, it’s just a matter of time.
Sloppy copy and paste:
“A couple of month ago, the US Senate overwhelmingly passed a billion defence bill that included an amendment that would require women to register for the draft — also known as the selective service — for the first time in history.”
should read:
“A couple of months ago, the US Senate overwhelmingly passed a bill that included an amendment that will require women to register for the draft for the first time in history.”