"I complied with human rights-violating U.S. renunciation rules — and this leaves a bitter taste." https://t.co/H5qRkzhxxq
— Citizenship Lawyer (@ExpatriationLaw) August 24, 2016
Click on the link in the above tweet to see the complete discussion.
The bottom line is that Dr. Stephen Kish – Chair of the Alliance For The Defence of Canadian Sovereignty and plaintiff in the Bopp FATCA Lawsuit, has formally renounced U.S. citizenship. He performed this act in Iceland which is the final resting place of Robert James Fischer – one of the most famous and well known cases of U.S. citizenship relinquishment.
Watcher is correct.
Concentrate your anger on the Democratic party. They are responsible for the enforcement of this.
Here are some names: Barack Obama, Jacob Lew, Carl Levin, Timothy Geithner, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton – why not consider how they have been complicit in this.
Also, after reading your comments for a longer period of time, what I can’t understand is why you don’t just ignore the whole thing. Nobody is forcing you to comply. The people who have been hurt the most are those who have complied. May I remind you of the message of the tweet that started off this post:
“I complied with human rights-violating U.S. renunciation rules — and this leaves a bitter taste.”
The same could be said for compliance with other U.S. extra-territorial laws.
US Citizen Abroad: “Also, after reading your comments for a longer period of time, what I can’t understand is why you don’t just ignore the whole thing. Nobody is forcing you to comply.”
So…considering that my wife has family in the United States which she has had to forcibly sever all ties with thanks to FATCA, I should just stay quiet and not be angry about this?
No I’m not personally complying but I’m just waiting for the other shoe to drop. Just keep in mind, they’ll have to get through me to get to her. EVERY SINGLE FUCKING PERSON IN THE UNITED STATES IS COMPLICIT by voting for these two paper morons that they put up for this election. It makes me wonder HOW STUPID Americans are to even be voting for these two choices.
Watcher: If you can’t understand the analogy of compliance workers being THIEVES! Then you’re denser than I thought.
1. Hodgen serves platitudes about how awful FATCA is; but is not opposed to taking money from those who put their heads in the noose. Yeah, that’s an accessory to theft by any definition of the word – the US Government being the MAIN THIEF in this whole goddamned mess.
2. Those thieves expect me to be grateful for making me see how valuable her freedom is (once she gets clear with her Canadian citizenship) over her slave-like US citizenship and then expect to rob my family blind (pay them $2350 – to obtain her freedom by shedding her restrictive US citizenship which by right she should have the unilateral decision to drop without pecuniary fee.))
Yeah, my analogy doesn’t make any sense??? You’re being willfully dense.
And Watcher & US Citizen Abroad: Don’t give me any bullshit about “The law is the law”. An immoral law is worth less than the paper it’s written on.
I didn’t get Phil’s blog post to be a strict comparison between a sales receipt and a CLN. I think he’s making a loose analogy – sales receipts being something everyone is familiar with — in that they’re both situations that involve 2 parties and the other party provides you a document attesting that an event occurred.
In the case of a sale, the receipt doesn’t cause the transfer of ownership. The receipt just provides you with evidence that the transfer of ownership did occur. As in the case of relinquishment/renunciation, the CLN doesn’t cause the citizenship termination, the CLN just provides you with evidence that it did.
I think that’s what he was using the sales receipt analogy for when writing about CLNs, to illustrate that the document doesn’t change anything legally, it just provides evidence of the change, in both these scenarios.
This is a really important point, IMO, because there are people, who were unaware of this and have been mistakenly or deliberately told that they remained US citizens (although they believed themselves to be relinquished) because they did not have a CLN, and they believed and acted upon the incorrect information/advice. I think it’s really good that Phil brought up this point – that it’s the act, not the CLN, that changes your status — on his blog.
Yes sir! No, “The law is the law”, from me!
You might find this interesting:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/03/22/when-law-becomes-a-substitute-for-morality/
@Admins: Do any of you know what the time-line looks like for action on the Charter case? I’m curious when/what the next court action will be. Also, thank you to each of you (Eric, Tricia, Petros and others) who have put up content for discussion while many of us wait for action on the litigation front.
BC Doc,
Go always to the last litigation update that I have posted on LITIGATION UPDATES (see link on top right of this page).
I said: “I can’t give you a firm timeline on when the submission will be made, but predict generally that the submission will likely be made in the Fall of this year with the Constitutional-Charter trial taking place next year. Litigation moves slowly — please be patient.”
My guess is still that the submission will be made in the Fall with the Constitutional-Charter trial in Canada Federal Court taking place next year (end of first quarter?). This is only a reasonable guess and it is not possible to be more definitive.
US Citizen Abroad:
“The truth is that Mr. Mopsick is an ally in our cause. It’s just that he doesn’t always seem like it. He opposes citizenship-based taxation. He supports FATCA. They are NOT inconsistent thoughts.”
“That is not entirely true. Mopsick opposes citizenship-based taxation but supports FATCA. Because of the former he is a valuable ally.”
Mopsick originally came in here with the viewpoint that “the law is the law and it must be followed…”; he had the same as Hodgen and to an even greater extent by Roy Berg. And I don’t think their viewpoint has adjusted from “You must follow the law to get free”. In other words: Pay out your nose plus arm and leg, get your CLN and then “ye shall be free”.
Yeah, I trust them like I trust a New Coast Realty realtor – and I used to be in the real estate business. bubblebustin’ would understand that.
They shall say what they want as long as it benefits them… The wolf in sheep’s clothing.
The_Animal1970 wrote: And Watcher & US Citizen Abroad: Don’t give me any bullshit about “The law is the law”. An immoral law is worth less than the paper it’s written on.
No ‘law is the law’ from me, either. I have never said that, nor will I. The US should stick firmly to only enforcing laws within its own territory, and leave the rest of us alone. But it’s a meddlesome and controlling nation with an apparently unending appetite for other people’s money, and so here we are.
Pacifica’s post above shows nicely what point Phil Hodgen was making with his analogy, and why it is a useful and necessary point to make. If you don’t or can’t see it that way then fair enough. But this is not my fault, or Pacifica’s, or US Citizen Abroad’s, or Phil Hodgen’s for that matter. Again, I just think you’re misdirecting your ire, and in this case in an unproductive direction. Anger is a perfectly valid emotion and can sometimes lead to positive change, so why waste it?
Don’t take this the wrong way, but I am actually somewhat concerned for your health and state of mind. In your responses here I see echoes of how I felt and reacted to similar stresses nearly a decade ago. I am out and on the other side now, but only after going through some really unpleasant intervening episodes of depression and anxiety. Perhaps you’re just ‘venting’, but if not then do please try to avoid getting to the point I reached — it really is horrible.
You know there’s this great line in the Godfather II:
“You keep your friends close and your enemies closer”.
https://youtu.be/DfHJDLoGInM
Anybody who comes to Brock should read Petros’ Article: Watcher, I don’t know if you’ve were around when Petros penned this article.
Petros’ Article: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/02/13/citizenship-based-taxation-is-a-human-rights-abuse-and-the-united-states-is-a-serial-human-rights-abuser/
I’ve dealt with abuse (from my own family) and I have no tolerance for abuse from anyone, let alone some country who thinks it has a right to MY money and MY WIFE’s money.
And MAKE NO MISTAKE: The US has been a human rights abuser; not just with FATCA. Note Abu Ghraib, My Lai and others.
Stephen Kiss’s mention of a possible end of first quarter court date, got me thinking. Would it not make sense for the Canadian and US governments to work together to come up with some sort of amnesty for ‘accidentals’ soon, BEFORE the Canadian case goes to court? That way, the plaintiffs would not really have much to complain about as they could get out easily if they wanted to. Although that could mean throwing a possible wrench into the court case (new plaintiffs required perhaps), that would also save and rightly so, the most innocent of all the ‘American Canadians’, those who for the most part have little to no American identity.
@Watcher
Your comment at 6:25 was one of the kindest and most gracious things I have even seen posted on an online forum.
Victor Frankl, used to say something to the effect that:
Thank you for being such a “decent person”!
A little about Victor Frankl:
https://www.brainpickings.org/2013/03/26/viktor-frankl-mans-search-for-meaning/
Thank you for this USCitizenAbroad and Watcher. You have both lifted me up a little today. If only those on the other side could be even a little bit decent but… At least there are so many working on the lawsuit and posting at IBS and Maplesandbox who are decent. For that I am grateful.
“My harsh feels towards him are replaced with a tinge of dispair. If he is the best we can hope fore and he doesn’t get the reality then what to do?”
Japan T, if you are the best English teacher that Japanese students can hope “fore” then should they feel “dispair”?
Phil Hodgen makes mistakes, but, other than deleting the comments of people who spent time making the same effort as Hodgen himself made to help other readers, he hasn’t been malicious.
By the way, can you give a better analogy for the meaning of a CLN that hasn’t arrived yet? If you can, too bad Hodgen won’t let you post it now, but you could post it here. But I bet that other attempted analogies would be worse than his.
‘I think I’d like to use the word “sleazy” to describe what the US is doing with CBT.’
Why tone things down that way? The US doesn’t call it sleazy, the US calls it a human rights violation. To see where they called it that, look at the UN resolution they sponsored against their only friend, Eritrea.
“So…considering that my wife has family in the United States which she has had to forcibly sever all ties with thanks to FATCA, I should just stay quiet and not be angry about this?”
No, you should be angry, but you should blame me not Hodgen. You blamed me when I agreed with you before, so why not blame me now?
Some said you should blame the US government instead of Hodgen, but you and I know you should blame me instead.
“EVERY SINGLE FUCKING PERSON IN THE UNITED STATES IS COMPLICIT by voting for these two paper morons”
Hell no. Some of us voted Libertarian when we held US citizenship. Some of us spoiled our ballots when we couldn’t stand the Libertarian candidate.
“Anger is a perfectly valid emotion and can sometimes lead to positive change, so why waste it?”
My anger is directed towards those who aid and abet the United States cause of citizenship based taxation. Whether they be government bodies, compliance condors, United States citizens or even people from our own camp who decry “lying to protect ourselves from financial ruin” with airs of moral superiority. That’s what’s chafed my briefs these past few weeks. I may be venting here… It’s not my job to tell you whether or not. If my venting helps someone else’s moral outrage feel justified, then it’s just as good.
Secondly I am helping my wife pursue her Canadian citizenship. It may not help her out of the current situation but if we lay low long enough, perhaps the statute of limitations will run out on all the years that she’s gone as a PR and will only be valid for the years that she will be a Canadian. So there is the “productive part” of my outrage.
And as far as the United States is concerned; I’d rather grow my photography business. So lemme see. Getting two Nikon D5s as opposed to paying my taxes in the United States for services that I don’t receive. Hmmmm, lessee. Yeah. D5 wins. FUCK YOU! USA. You and your outstretched hand can go to HELL!
“Japan T, if you are the best English teacher that Japanese students can hope “fore” then should they feel “dispair”?”
If I did not understand their needs for learning English, yes they should despair.
And yes, typing on an IPad which for months alternatively skips characters and “prints” multiple characters, causing me to delete, which also skips and deletes multiple characters while stsnding up, bouncing around on trains causes all sorts of typos.
There are no analagies to CLNs and awaiting their arrival. It is a one of a kind monstrosity and must be handled as such. Analogy not needed here as it just muddies the water.
If I became Japanese but my bank gives me a certain time to produce my CLN before they close my account, then I would be sweating bullets until I got my CLN. No other people face such nonesense. No other document causes such concern.
@Shovel
We must have misunderstood what Justin meant when he said “a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian”. He probably meant he didn’t like how the Harper government went about making some Canadians second-class citizens – not the fact that they are now second-class citizens.
Norman Diamond: “Hell no. Some of us voted Libertarian when we held US citizenship. Some of us spoiled our ballots when we couldn’t stand the Libertarian candidate.”
Well then good for you. *applause* You weren’t of the camp of bipartisan politics. You were smart enough to decide that neither of the two main contenders were palatable. For that you deserve applause. You stepped out of the bubble. At least you had a moral compass. Some homelanders, I’m starting to wonder about. All I’ve heard these past few weeks is:
1. Lying isn’t right – well, when it comes to my money remaining in my pocket or risking financial ruin. No thank you, I’ll lie with a straight face.
2. Trump is a egomaniacal maniac: Hillary is our only choice. – Yeah…some people will choose to cut of their nose to spite their face.
3. Trump is our only choice…If we choose Hillary, she’s an egomaniacal warmonger who will pull us into a war that we can win against Russia. OMFG. ~shaking my head~ And people wonder WHY the fucking hell my blood pressure is going through the goddamned roof? WTF is wrong with Gary Johnson?
4. If the Liberals can’t stomach Clinton, they can throw the vote and vote for Stein!
Yeah, I can give you a better analogy of a CLN that hasn’t arrived yet: It’s called “dodging the slave-patrol (patty-rollers)” – it’s the uncertain tie to the homeland (slave plantation) that keeps you from being free. The arrival of the CLN supposedly is your emancipation. That give you an idea?
At the grocery store today, in the produce section, I felt that ‘someone is looking at me’ sensation that causes you to immediately glance in their direction. Caught the gaze of a man on the other side of the isle who immediately looked away. So, I looked at him. Watched him staring vacantly off into the crowd, focused on nothing with big sad eyes. He was maybe 40. A woman around his age, stood nearby, her back to me, picking fruit. I guessed his wife. He was in a wheel chair.
The FATCA hunt for deemed ‘US taxpayers’ hiding their earnings where they live can be more than a little too much to bear at times. Anger, like what theAnimal expresses is going to come out one way or another, better here than some other places. But don’t forget, most of us still have choices that the sad-eyed young man I watched sitting in the wheelchair today, will never have.
“Japan T, if you are the best English teacher that Japanese students can hope “fore” then should they feel “dispair”?”
Further, you are comparing his syntax error to my typo spelling errors.
In a completly different forum, I described the diversity of the work I do. I teach, among many others, the maids at a maid cafe and proof read medical, engineering and forensic science research papers.
Can I serve my clients with their research papers if I understand their needs as the same as the maids? Can I serve the maids if I understand their needs to the same as my students with research papers?
“He probably meant he didn’t like how the Harper government went about making some Canadians second-class citizens”
I guess he probably meant those Arab “suspected terrorists” and not good ol’ Joe C (for Canuck) “I don’t wanna be an” American Citizen.