"I complied with human rights-violating U.S. renunciation rules — and this leaves a bitter taste." https://t.co/H5qRkzhxxq
— Citizenship Lawyer (@ExpatriationLaw) August 24, 2016
Click on the link in the above tweet to see the complete discussion.
The bottom line is that Dr. Stephen Kish – Chair of the Alliance For The Defence of Canadian Sovereignty and plaintiff in the Bopp FATCA Lawsuit, has formally renounced U.S. citizenship. He performed this act in Iceland which is the final resting place of Robert James Fischer – one of the most famous and well known cases of U.S. citizenship relinquishment.
@ Tricia,
Re:
Is this what you’re thinking of? Yesterday I found an info page entitled Selective Service Registration: Renunciation of Citizenship by Dual Nationals on the website of the US embassy in the Bahamas and posted a comment about it on the Renunciation thread. This is an excerpt from it. There’s reference to no plans to re-instate the draft in the last line of point 2.
“If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. You may feel that your children don’t inherit US citizenship from their US parent, but that’s not the case legally. Given advances in technology and the Big Brother era we’ve entered, I very much doubt your children will be able to avoid the consequences of ignoring this reality. Though not saddled with a US birthplace, they will be easy enough for the USG to find before they become adults, which will cause problems opening bank accounts in the respective countries they live. An even worse-case scenario is if the US reintroduces conscription while they are between the ages of 18 to 25.
Again, I’m not trying to pick a fight. But I just don’t believe that you are doing yourselves, or your children, any favours by refusing to acknowledge the global scope and strength of US law.”
I agree with this totally, except that they are “legally” US citizens. What the US will bring to bear against them, and us, is powerful but not law. Perhaps, it is just a problem of oversimplication. Pretending a problem does not exist is indeed foolish. Animal and I are not pretending the problem does not exist. But the problem is not that our children ARE USCs, the problem is the US CONSIDERS them to be USCs and is extorting FFI’s to also treat our children as USCs.
Extortionists do not stop extorting their victims on their own. They must be forced to stop. Once a victim has been extorted, the extortionst returns again and again for more payments. The only hope our children have is for them to live and behave in such a manner so as to be unequivically Canadian and Japanese citizens, respectively, and make it hard for their legal governments to deny the fact. Submitting to any US law while in their homelands will cast doubt as to their allegiances, loyalties and intentions and make it easier their legal governments to disregard their duty towards these citizens.
Besides, being minors, there is not a damned thing we can do to get them clear of the US’s illegal claim on them.
Sadly, the US has legal claim to those born in the US and to bonafide USCs, like myself, but out side the US they have none on our children. Japanese law does not allow it, and I gather neither does Canadian law.
The problem for our children is not US law, it is whether or not their governments will uphold their laws or not. Animal’s wife and I are in different boats than our children are. Different boats but on the same stormy sea.
The only one size fits all solution would be for the US to follow its own laws and stop writing new “law” to fit it current needs and wishes.
Yes, if our children do not dance to the IRS’s tune once they are of age, then serious problems await them (unless by that time their govs have decided to defend their citizens and tax base against the US). But serious problems await them if the DO dance to the IRS’s tune.
“And as to children born abroad automatically being U.S. citizens, that would apply should one think that U.S, law applies outside it’s jurisdiction. Why do you think the US will automatically find such children? I am not trying to pick a fight either, just curious why you would think this is so”
In Japan T’s case, he is registered with the Japanese government as a US citizen so it wouldn’t be difficult for the USG to track him and his offspring down. Canadians currently have an easier time living under the radar, but that will change the more information gets exchanged. More and more, countries are sacrificing privacy in the hope of gaining security. The_Animal1970′s wife no doubt has a Canadian SIN, which her banks have access to, so once the USG sorts through all the data the Canadian government gave them last fall and will continue to provide, it’s just a matter of time before they find her. It would be an easy step from there to check if she’s given birth, because that’s all a matter of public record.
Right now, I don’t think the systems are completely in place yet for the USG to do such a deep dive and connect all the dots. However, it’s just a matter of time.
Exactly. Sooner than later, everything on everybody will be readily available for anyone to find. The J gov sent the “My Number” cards for everyone in my household in the same envelope. Every employer and now even a couple of former employers have a photo copy of my “My Number” card and photo ID, signature and address on a single piece of paper. When they submit their taxes this year, the national gov. will also have all this info in one file. The local gov, being the ones who send out the “My Number” card already have it.
As I must now present my “My Number” card and photo ID to be photo copied everytime I cash an Internetional Money Order at the PO (this Monday’s wax for birthday money for my child from his American grand parents) all information on me; employers, earnings, taxes paid, refunds received, property owned, credit card payments, accounts held, disbursements from my accounts to every entity I have monthly payments to are collected in one place along with my photo and signature and those of all in my family for all to see. Both the national and local govs have this. Every one my employers and banks have accress to all this and keep a large portion of it on site.
True, that is Japan, but other countries are moving in a similar direction. S. O. here recently reported that Australia will start storing census data electronically in a central location. That is an unresistable target for data thieves and it will eventually be breached and all data stored within will find its way into the public domain.
The only way to not be found will be to live as a 19th century mountain man.
The question is not how will the US find anyone it wants to, the question is, how will it be possible to keep anyone from finding out all there is to know about you.
@Pacifica
Yes, that is exactly the same information though I came by it via the US Embassy in Thailand site.
BTW, you should see the number of notarial appts available; there must not be many people renouncing there.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/notarial-appts-available-september-2016-at-us-embassy-bangkok/
@Westcoaster
Thanks for your answer. I wasn’t thinking specifically in terms of Japan T or The Animal etc, just the general concept. While the U.S. may be able to track information, I don’t see that as anything more than they “know” something. FATCA/IGA may indeed give them “US Persons” in Canada info, but at least for now, if CDN when tax incurred, CDN govt will not “turn them over” by helping collect. I have a hard time imagining in the future, the CDN government turning over citizens born in Canada with no US indicia, use of US citizenship benefits, etc. Given all the hoopla going on now, I wonder if the US would consider it wise to push on that. Of course, could be wrong, but I just don’t think the U.S could possibly follow through on all the information they may be able to obtain. And I would imagine courts would be involved if a citizen of one country, who had not chosen US citizenship, had the US breathing down his/her throat for whatever purpose.
They are already unable to do that in terms of what the NSA collects in the “war on terror.” I know the US seems efficient and invincible but then, one could look at all their military endeavors since say, the Vietnam War. Bullies are great at scaring and less great at matching their inflated perception of themselves. Just my .02.
“Are you or have you ever been a U.S. citizen?”
This is now one of the most frightening questions in the world. Made even more frightening by the condors and the Obama “FATCA Letter” Probes being sent daily.
After watching this nightmare unfold now during the Obama presidency, my thinking has evolved into the following basic precepts – which are shared by some, agreed to by others, and “ridiculed by others (notably some of the condors):
1. The fact of a U.S. birth (in most cases) means that one is indeed born a U.S. citizen and starts life as a U.S citizen.
– there are many ways to have relinquished U.S. citizenship that do not under the nationality laws require a CLN
– as the U.S. Supreme Courts says: citizenship depends on the will and intent of the individual
2. The fact of a birth outside the USA to U.S. citizen parent(s) automatically confers the right to U.S. citizenship. It is NOT clear that it confers the obligation to accept U.S. citizenship (unless you are a Homelander immigration lawyer).
– I am not convinced that having a parent register the kid as a U.S. citizen forces the kid to be a U.S. citizen
– remember the USA perspective is that children don’t have the capacity to renounce U.S. citizenship. U.S. citizenship laws have always protected children from losing citizenship because the parents naturalized as citizens in another country. Why should the parents be able to force citizenship on a kid when the kid doesn’t know what’s going on?
– I know of no court decision where the context has been someone trying to resist the imposition of forced citizenship.
3. The concept of the “tax citizen” did not exist until 2004. Therefore, loss of citizenship prior to 2004 meant loss of U.S. citizenship for all purposes (even a tax lawyer would agree to that).
4. There is no section of the Internal Revenue Code that defines what a U.S. citizen is. The Internal Revenue Code only says (whatever U.S. citizenship is) that is not lost until …. Interestingly, the Internal Revenue Code does define “residence”
5. Since 2004, when “Tax Citizens” were created, those who were U.S. citizens and had not relinquished U.S. citizenship do/did have “notice requirements” to lose citizenship for tax purposes. The requirements from 2004 to 2008 were different from the requirements that took effect on June 16, 2008.
– by the way this idea is reflected and accepted by the Canada Revenue Agency in various contexts
6. It has only been since June 16, 2008 that a CLN was specifically required to lose U.S. citizenship for tax purposes.
7. As a general rule, banks, tax lawyers and accountants know NOTHING at all about U.S. citizenship law. So don’t ask them.
8. Many (but not all) tax lawyers, accountants, etc, read S. 877A of the Internal Revenue Code to be (“in effect”) retroactive. In other words, they say that a person who lost U.S. citizenship in the 1970 is still a U.S. citizen because they don’t have a CLN. They have ZERO basis for reading S. 877A in this way. It could just as easily (and is by others) to not be retroactive.
9. So, what to do in an uncertain world:
Group A – The Bruce Springsteen’s “Born In The USA Group”
– If you were born in the United States you will always have a problem.
– If you believe that you relinquished U.S. citizenship prior to 2004, then stick to your guns. (Unless you want to “pretend that you didn’t relinquish” so that you can renounce).
Group B – Not Born in the USA
– you are so lucky. You won the birth lottery
– don’t create trouble for yourself unless of course you are happy to be a U.S. citizen
– you are “hiding in plain sight”
Group C – All groups
What I have seen so far, is this:
– those who have tried hard to be compliant have been badly, badly, badly hurt by this
– those who have not tried to be compliant are certainly doing a lot better
– I agree that to the “PFIC Fund” advertising that: Past performance is no guarantee of future results”
– Why kind of “advice” do you think you will get if you go a tax lawyer or accountant? The only thing they can say to you is: Comply, comply, comply
@Westcoaster
I have been thinking about your comments on this thread. I suggest that you read and reread the comment from Mr. Ross.
Also, I think that you are allowing the USA too much power in defining you. Is it your view that “citizenship” is some kind of modern form of slavery?
@Patricia Moon
“They are already unable to do that in terms of what the NSA collects in the “war on terror.” I know the US seems efficient and invincible but then, one could look at all their military endeavors since say, the Vietnam War. Bullies are great at scaring and less great at matching their inflated perception of themselves. Just my .02.”
For everyone’s sake, I hope you’re right!
Unfortunately we’re swimming against a tsunami that assumes that anyone who doesn’t want US citizenship is either crazy or up to no good. How do we turn the tide? Can we turn the tide?
@Westcoaster
Me too!
@USCitizenAbroad
“I have been thinking about your comments on this thread. I suggest that you read and reread the comment from Mr. Ross.”
Mr Ross tells me that getting my CLN and cleanly severing ties with the US (8854, etc) only addresses my “immediate problem and doing nothing for the future but making the beast fat” and the only way to solve the problem is to do what Ginny and Gwen are doing.
Given that I had already explained my lack of faith that the USG would comply even if the lawsuit is successful, this is not helpful advice.
“Also, I think that you are allowing the USA too much power in defining you. Is it your view that “citizenship” is some kind of modern form of slavery?
Again, these are just my observations of how this has unfolded. Who knows what will happen? But, I guess I am just suggesting that it really doesn’t make a lot of sense to “commit suicide to avoid dying” (or maybe you think it does).”
I was born the in US. By your own admittance, that puts me in what you classified as Group A — people that would always have a problem. In my case, getting a CLN and doing all the subsequent paperwork isn’t committing suicide — in fact, it’s the very opposite! My stress levels have gone down markedly since I got my CLN. I now have legal proof that I am no longer American, problem solved.
WestCoaster says: “In my case, getting a CLN and doing all the subsequent paperwork isn’t committing suicide — in fact, it’s the very opposite! My stress levels have gone down markedly since I got my CLN. I now have legal proof that I am no longer American, problem solved. ”
Exactly. But the paperwork is more than just paperwork and is downright impossible for some from a financial perspective. That is why I think it is imperative that home governments work with the USG to allow non-resident US citizens ditch US citizenship painlessly as opposed to the current compliance nightmare for those who have lived decades out of USA clueless as to their US taxpayer status. The Obama proposal would have gotten some out, though it did not go far enough. People like theAnimal, should be able to sleep at night, every night, and not have this black cloud following them around for the rest of their lives never knowing what the US will dream up next for those it says are ‘US persons’. The Canadian lawsuit will help Canadians (and maybe start the ball rolling for other countries), but ultimately the real cure is to get rid of US citizenship.
In other words, all roads lead to renunciation, BUT the roads have HUGE craters in them which need to be removed so that EVERYONE, not just those who can afford to come into compliance can travel down that road if they choose to do so. People like Bubblebustin and others may choose to continue to file and be compliant (which is unfair), but at least there is a choice there. People like theAnimal who cannot afford 2350 and the cost of compliance (PFICS anyone?) have no choice but to live under the radar. THat is not right. Everyone should be able to choose whether or not they want to put up with the BS of being a US person.
I would think the US government would not find it to its advantage to allow one group of US citizen to maintain the option of exercising their rights to US citizenship up until such time they would like to rid themselves of it, all the while not paying taxes.
What incentive does the US have in implementing the Obama proposal? What sort of threat do accidentals pose to the US government that would compel the USG to implement it? The threat to Citizenship Based Taxation itself?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against people getting out, I’m just against something that would result in preventing everyone from getting out, including that other red herring, SCE.
“Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against people getting out, I’m just against something that would result in preventing everyone from getting out…”
In your case, as someone who is compliant, you can get renounce easily at anytime, The others, like theAnimal and JapanT don’t have that choice as they are not compliant. You want accidentals (and others who don’t want to be American) to support RBT but at the same time don’t want to support letting accidentals et al, go free from US citizenship. This is akin to holding accidentals ransom in order to increase your odds at getting RBT for US citizens who want their cake and eat it too. Not right.
Everytime someone announces they got their CLN people congratulate them here. But for some reason, any proposals (such as the Obama proposal and Anne Franks proposal) to help accidentals got lots of thumbs down. I don’t get it, other than to think that accidentals are bait/tools/ransome for those who want CBT as they are the most extreme example of the ridiculousness of CBT. Your fear is that releasing them from US citizenship somehow lessens your chance to have RBT and remain a US citizen? Maybe. But maybe so does allowing ANYONE to renounce as the less US citizens there are outside USA, the less resistance there is to CBT. Maybe we should start booing those who get their CLN’s.
Also, how does letting people drop US citizenship easily prevent YOU from dropping US citizenship easily? It doesn’t right. All it does is MAYBE hurt your chances for being a cake eater. Not nice. Really not nice. Again, another example of group think here where the group think is ‘RBT is the solution for all’ whether you like it or not – sorry accidentals.
Malice
Thanks for your response. A few thoughts.
I think everyone agrees that if it is possible to be rid of U.S. citizenship, that is ideal. You have posted here for a few days. I honestly don’t see, of all the comments on the site in that time, that there is consensus regarding a move to RBT. I think many see that there are many different problems involved and there may be a need for many solutions. Some people on this site are not at all concerned about what the US does/doesn’t do regarding taxation. I believe most people here are concerned with what is best for all.
I don’t know that you were around at the time of the Obama proposal but I certainly was delighted to see it and don’t recall a lot of people saying otherwise. I guess I’ll have to go back and look. And wasn’t renunciation still a part of that proposal?
I think most people on this site agree that each person who describes his/her situation here receives support in terms of positive responses etc. You mentioned something about the responses to The_Animal1970 being insensitive. I think USCA tried to be helpful and I offered to do the taxes there. That’s supportive, isn’t it? I don’t see anything about supporting a CBT lawsuit, other than mention of its existence from time to time. Again, IMHO, there is likely to be a need for many different solutions. Some will involve some people and not always everyone.
With regard to a lawsuit focusing on Accidentals, of course, one can always take the initiative and start up in an area where attention is needed. I for one, have my hands full. There are two individuals on the FB group Accidental Americans who are actively pursuing just that. You might wish to check it out:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/accidental.americans/?notif_t=group_r2j_approved
@ MaliceInWonderland
“Exactly. But the paperwork is more than just paperwork and is downright impossible for some from a financial perspective. That is why I think it is imperative that home governments work with the USG to allow non-resident US citizens ditch US citizenship painlessly as opposed to the current compliance nightmare for those who have lived decades out of USA clueless as to their US taxpayer status. The Obama proposal would have gotten some out, though it did not go far enough. People like theAnimal, should be able to sleep at night, every night, and not have this black cloud following them around for the rest of their lives never knowing what the US will dream up next for those it says are ‘US persons’. The Canadian lawsuit will help Canadians (and maybe start the ball rolling for other countries), but ultimately the real cure is to get rid of US citizenship.”
If you read my comments above, I make sure to stress that I respect Ginny and Gwen for standing up for themselves and others. However, I personally just don’t believe — and I hope I’m wrong about this! — that the USG would ever comply with a foreign court’s ruling, so I scraped together the US$2350 to renounce.
I’ve also said, time and time again, that this situation is totally unfair. I was born in the US because my mother made the mistake of visiting while she was in her third trimester — my parents aren’t American, I don’t have any American relatives, and I’ve never lived in the US — and it’s been very stressful and expensive dealing with this situation. However, the expense (which I could ill-afford) and trouble has been worth it FOR ME.
“Maybe we should start booing those who get their CLN’s.”
“Also, how does letting people drop US citizenship easily prevent YOU from dropping US citizenship easily? It doesn’t right. All it does is MAYBE hurt your chances for being a cake eater. Not nice. Really not nice. Again, another example of group think here where the group think is ‘RBT is the solution for all’ whether you like it or not – sorry accidentals.”
You’re putting words in my mouth. Moreover, I think it’s mean of you to even think of booing those of us who have renounced. You’re understandably upset about this situation — as are all of us — but save your anger for the USG, instead of lashing out at those of us who have chosen to legally sever ties.
@PatriciaMoon.
I guess my recollection of the discussions here about the Obama proposal and AnneFrank’s proposal was different than yours. I do recall several key Brockers (one was also a ACDS director) dissing both of these and they were VERY clear as Bubblebusing above, that they were afraid letting accidentals go would hurt other peoples chances of getting what they want. Glad to hear you were not one of them. Sorry to hear that ACDS is focussing solely on RBT rather than helping people free themselves of US citizenship (the BIGGEST problem in my opinion), though I also think RBT is a worthy cause. As for your suggestion I start my own lawsuit, i think i will just stick to donating and participating occasionally on forums. My spouse and I are working on getting out the expensive way, but perhaps others will take up the cause. I will donate if they do.
@WestCoaster, my comments were directed at Bubblebusting. Sorry for confusion. Bubblebusing has made it very clear she does not support freedom for accidentals as she fears it gets in the way of RBT which is what she wants so she can stay a US person. So have others here who I will not name but who are key speakers at Brock. I guess if one fits in with the agenda of the main people here, all is well. Otherwise, find another place to take your concerns.
@Malice,
I will go back and look later. I guess you were a lurker then as I don’t recognize your monniker nor any memory of involvement in that discussion…….at any rate, not doubting you just indicating that not all would have the viewpoint you’ve mentioned.
ADCS is only focussed on the Canadian IGA suit.
I also suggested you could take a look at what the Accidental American group are doing; they are engaged in talking with a pro bono lawyer at the moment.
@All
I hope I can make this clear. With regard to WestCoaster’s comment:
There is no issue of US compliance with a foreign court’s ruling as nothing in the ADCS-ADSC has to do directly with the US. If you mean that the US would respect and accept a foreign court’s ruling (as in back off from continuing to impose the IGA) I agree with you 100%. They would never do it. I mean after all, {sarcasm} a country’s laws ends at their own borders, don’t they?
But technically, there is nothing about our suit that would compel compliance from the US.
For the sake of he plaintiffs in the Canadian lawsuit, we should hope SOMEONE comes up with a proposal for amnesty for accidentals because it will be a long, long time until RBT comes (if ever) and they are the ones who exposed themselves on behalf of Canadians like Bubblebusting and Calgary’s son. Meanwhile those same Canadians refused to support an amnesty for accidentals. Sad.
@Malice
I wasn’t born compliant, and like other’s had to jump through some fiery hoops to get that way. How I feel about any half-baked proposal like the Obama one is my perogative.
What do you care about how I feel? If I’m so important as a supporter, why don’t you instead exercise any influence you have as a US citizen – or are you ScaredyKat?
USA Proposals for amnesty. Claims of reciprocity. Blah, blah, blah.
The US has different meanings for the words AMNESTY and RECIPROCITY than most of the rest of the world. To view the terms of the faux proposed (not offered) amnesty, http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2016/03/01/accidental-americans-you-have-not-been-forgotten/
Requirements might be hard to meet for some *Accidental Americans*, i.e.
and it appears would, in this faux amnesty proposal, STILL require relinquishment / renunciation and the $US fee that involves.
One of The Animals’s children and my son would still be entrapped into retention of USC as I see — the extraterritorial citizenship definition deemed by the US. Although our children meet the proposed terms, there is no term for or recognition of US entrapment into USC for those who do not have *requisite mental capacity* to understand, etc.
Is there another proposal that I have not read about?