"I complied with human rights-violating U.S. renunciation rules — and this leaves a bitter taste." https://t.co/H5qRkzhxxq
— Citizenship Lawyer (@ExpatriationLaw) August 24, 2016
Click on the link in the above tweet to see the complete discussion.
The bottom line is that Dr. Stephen Kish – Chair of the Alliance For The Defence of Canadian Sovereignty and plaintiff in the Bopp FATCA Lawsuit, has formally renounced U.S. citizenship. He performed this act in Iceland which is the final resting place of Robert James Fischer – one of the most famous and well known cases of U.S. citizenship relinquishment.
Some insight into why Bobby Fischer, world chess grandmaster, quit the USA:
http://www.anusha.com/pasadena.htm
@ Stephen Kish
Well my goodness. You are now IRSCompliantForeverNoMore! What an interesting location to “take the oath”. In the late 60’s, while flying back from Europe on Icelandair I enjoyed a wonderful, complimentary, one-day stopover in Reykjavik. I hope you are finding the place as fascinating as I once did … despite the reason for your visit. I’m certain your decision to renounce would have been made with great care so it’s nice to know you were able to find a way to get it done without delay. Best wishes and you have my forever gratitude for everything you are doing to fight the injustice of CBT/FBAR/FATCA.
“I complied with human rights-violating U.S. renunciation rules — and this leaves a bitter taste.”
Yes, but in my opinion, a renunciation (of US citizenship) will eventually be a cause for celebration. Any bitterness and anger I experienced was replaced with a great sense of relief plus the ability to function again as a free agent in the universe.
The USA has made laws which violate our fundamental human rights. This is not our fault but the fault of the USA. The problem lies with them. Unfortunately Canadian and other governments are not standing up to this financial blackmail. We have hopefully removed ourselves from further harm by renouncing.
@ Tricia
“… all roads lead to renunciation.” Unfortunately that’s not an option available to miscreant, former but not formally confirmed, “resident aliens”. The road ahead is uncertain … forever. 🙁
@EmBee
there must be some equivalent
@ Tricia
There’s the I-407 application but if they ignore it, lose it, shred it, whatever … it’s welcome to US person limbo.
Congratulations Stephen on your emancipation.
@Tom Alciere
“Some insight into why Bobby Fischer, world chess grandmaster, quit the USA:”
http://www.anusha.com/pasadena.htm
Thanks for this shocking look into the USA system of justice. Another reason to renounce and not look back.
@EmBee,
yes I know but “I-407” doesn’t work nicely into the phrase
Have you magic today? Imagine a tune and something will pop up?
Congratulations Stephen! Iceland is an interesting place to do it for sure. Definitely Bobby Fischer was one of the early targets of what eventually became FATCA.
Solomon Yue of Republicans Overseas must be very upset! It really bothers him to see people renounce.
Stephen is right on what he deeply feels right now…
…*Congratulations* comes with visions of balloons and fireworks and joyful smiles. Stephen’s action, deciding to take the step of renunciation of his US citizenship, I think, is acknowledgement of his determining his best choice to get on with some semblance of life as it once was for him and his lovely Canadian wife. For that, I would now better express by saying *good work on getting to this point and I wish your family the very best future* even though you, Stephen, will always have the US place of birth* discrimination, a difference from your wife or any other Canadian. Each of us, however US-affected, has to decide what is best (of the not so great options) to help move ourselves and our families forward for life is too short. That decision will never be the same for all of us.
I, for one, still have that very same bitter taste in my mouth for having to renounce in 2012 to have a CLN now in hand to show, if needed, to my local Canadian *foreign financial institution* — different from Stephen’s in that I thought I had crossed that bridge when I became a Canadian citizen in 1975 when I was warned I would thereby be losing my US citizenship. I had no idea of exceptional US CBT and all that meant, though obviously ignored by the US until a few short years ago. I, naively, would never have thought that my Canadian-born children would automatically be deemed US citizens by their birth to me and their father, both US citizens in Canada at the time just before 1975. The US school system failed me and how many others in not getting across to us the important lesson that we were enslaved by the US CBT tatoo on our behinds. That tatoo does not make me exceptional from any other citizen of any other country. The USA was my accidental place of birth.
Best wishes, Stephen — and THANKS for so many things. You have my respect for sure!
Thank you for everything you’ve done for US-tainted Canadians. Best wishes for your future as a non-dual citizen after taking this difficult step.
Thank you for all your hard work, Stephen.
We all have to pick and choose our battles, based on our own particular set of circumstances. At the end of the day, you did what you needed to do for yourself and your family.
I realize you don’t feel congratulations are in order, but I hope you do eventually find joy and comfort in having that CLN. I also hope you had a chance to do some sightseeing while you were in Iceland!
Good for Stephen Kish to get out. Maybe finally the Canadian government may invite you to a welcome ceremony (because they did not consider you Canadian before but a US citizen living in Canada). Yet most likely they will act as if nothing to see here.
I sometimes think people who renounce then are relieved and may kind of let it all behind them. Sometimes it seems they become more outspoken.
So ironic that the US worldview and conduct towards those outside the US is so irrational, shortsighted and unjust that it would prefer to force people it should be proud of like Stephen, to cease being US citizens ‘abroad’.
And further irony, in this case also losing a ‘compliant’ UStaxpayer ‘abroad’ – which is what the US insists it really wants) in order to have a semblance of a peaceful life unmolested by the endless extraterritorially punitive and hysterically overwrought provisions US lawmakers keep churning out (I’m thinking of you Reed) – and then it will loudly and roundly abuse the person further, in a bullying way by bragging that there are more lining up to replace us – so no great loss – there’s more where we came from, don’t let the door hit you on the a– on the way out ….. And treat people after the fact in a childishly punitive manner via the incomplete and apparently useless Federal Register ‘Name and Shame’ list and the FBI’s NICS gun control database (how naughty we are to choose to live abroad forever eh?).
The US is forgetting of course that we still exist – and in my case, will always carry and voice my deep suspicion of any and all US friendly policies or those which appear to be intended to achieve US political ambitions and which will inevitably involve US a–kissing by Canadian politicians and others within my HOME country. I may not have much power as an individual, but my default position is such that until proven wrong, it is probably prophylactic to support whatever thwarts US ambitions.
My guess is that Stephen did NOT want to renounce. But the reality is:
Yes, you can be an American abroad (for a while longer) if you are NOT U.S. tax compliant. You cannot survive as an American abroad if you ARE U.S. tax compliant.
It’s like the title of the post says:
All roads lead to renunciation.
What is incredibly disturbing is that many people who relinquished U.S. citizenship years ago are being told that they are still U.S. citizens and are now running the compliance gauntlet. Where are they getting this advice?
Those who are angry: Forget the anger and figure out how to get out.
Those who do NOT believe that this is happening: Continue to pretend it is not happening and see what will happen.
There is only ONE THING that is completely clear:
One cannot live (in the long run) as U.S. citizen outside the United States.
A gentle reminder: If your net worth is below the magic two million USD number you might consider getting out now!
@Badger
There are two groups of people that the USG clearly hates:
Group 1: U.S. citizens who live outside the United States.
Group 2: U.S. citizens who live inside the United States.
“A gentle reminder: If your net worth is below the magic two million USD number you might consider getting out now!”
That is unlike Stephen, you happen to be a “dual” citizen at birth, whereas the exit tax does not apply.
@USCitizenAbroad, and all;
For anyone experiencing twinges of regret at renouncing/relinquishing, here is a potent antidote;
http://taxpayeradvocate.irs.gov/reports/fy-2017-objectives-report-to-congress/volume-2 . See also the link to the TAS Inaugural Conference on International Taxpayer Rights https://taxpayerrightsconference.com/conference-papers http://news.money.ca/2016/08/24/national-taxpayer-advocate-releases-irs-responses-to-nta-recommendations-posts-papers-from-inaugural-conference-on-international-taxpayer-rights/
As Phil Hodgen says, “the beatings will continue until morale improves”. As he reminds us also; “get out while the getting is good” or some such variation. And that is very apparent from the latest TAS analysis of IRS future plans which the TAS has critiqued, and from IRS responses (transparently disingenuous as I read them) which she frankly and objectively dissects.
Who can contemplate having to contend with the ongoing punitive antics of the IRS, the State Dept., the usual grandstanding by US politicians abusing expats as scapegoats, and the ramping up of looming issues like the expansion of the US draft registration; ‘Senate Votes to Require Women to Register for the Draft’ JUNE 14, 2016 http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/15/us/politics/congress-women-military-draft.html?_r=0 and from the Canadian side enhanced border crossing demands on Canadian duals http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2016/08/18/change-passport-dual-citizens-air-travel/
Even skimming the IRS ‘Future State’ and other plans that the TAS analyzes (note that the IRS apparently will not let her release a portion of her objections “…the IRS’s continued lack of transparency in discussing potential user fee increases in public remains an area of concern. For example, the IRS has still declined to permit the National Taxpayer Advocate to release an unredacted version of her memorandum to the IRS Commissioner, which discusses her concerns about the fees being proposed…” ) shows that as you say above;
“There are two groups of people that the USG clearly hates:
Group 1: U.S. citizens who live outside the United States.
Group 2: U.S. citizens who live inside the United States.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2016/08/24/when-its-all-said-and-done-all-roads-lead-to-renunciation/comment-page-1/#comment-7649864
‘Compliance’ from outside the US is only going to get more difficult, more complex and more expensive. Those ‘abroad’ will remain unrepresented and unheard as well as unserved. Look for more enforcement, more FBAR’n FATCA-esque treatment, etc. not less. Expect that treaty gaps like those which punish the holders of Canadian mutual funds outside RRSPs, or the US taxation of capital gains on the sale of Canadian primary residences, or the education and disability savings plans like RESPs and RDSPs, or Australian Supers, and all the other tax and reporting abuses etc. will continue to gape ever wider as both the US and the fawning governments of our home countries like Canada and Australia show that those with US parentage or US birthplace or duals by naturalization, living outside the US are apparently expendable second class citizens whose local constitutional, civil and human rights are to be denied at the whim of the US.
A big congratulations to you Stephen Kish!
When I walked out of the embassy after renouncing, I felt like a huge weight had been removed from my shoulders.
The US place of birth still haunts me, but I truly can say with 100% certainty that I am glad that I renounced and actually enjoyed feeling the US door hitting me squarely in the ass.
“I complied with human rights-violating U.S. renunciation rules — and this leaves a bitter taste.”
Of course it leaves a bitter taste – that’s why so many of us who have already renounced are still visiting this site and doing what we can to right this wrong.
I felt a bit shell-shocked immediately after renouncing. Not because I regretted my renunciation, but because of the arduous process the US government had forced me through to get to that point.
Now, two months later, I feel emancipated. I am finally able to visit a financial planner and be offered the same products as my neighbors. I no longer need worry that my tax-favoured superannuation contributions will be taxed by another, foreign to me, government.
And yes, @JC, I’ve become more outspoken. I think that no country should force their expats to choose between retaining citizenship and being able to plan for retirement. It is a huge injustice and it must be called out.
I offered congratulations on the other site. After reading here, I believe a quote attributed to the Duke of Wellington more appropriate.
“After a battle lost, the saddest thing is a battle won.”
DoD’s comments about what was here have prompted me to delete it. I will rewrite it later on, in a post.
DoD, Perhaps when you object to something, you could relay it in a kinder way. I don’t understand the need for the manner you chose to use.
And please, do not call me Ms Moon.
1998 Publication 519 might say what had to be filed by relinquishers/renuciants at that time.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-prior/p519–1998.pdf