WITNESS SEARCH UPDATE FOR CANADIAN FATCA IGA LAWSUIT:
WE STILL SEEK MORE CANADIAN WITNESSES:
Have you experienced marital stress or breakup, or medical or psychiatric illness because Canada turned you and your family over to a foreign country — or because you were afraid and entered into IRS compliance and suffered harm, or because you are in “hiding” and can’t afford to be IRS compliant or to renounce? Be a witness.
No single witness will be “perfect” from a litigation point of view. We will be seeking more witnesses (almost) right up to the time of submission of court documents. Your specific situation, that we cannot predict, might have unique characteristics that would be helpful in the lawsuit.
If you cannot be a witness, please tell a friend who you think might be interested.
— If you are interested in becoming a witness You will describe your harm in a written affidavit which will be made public and you can contact me at stephen.kish.chair@adcs-adsc.ca See our website at www.adcs-adsc-ca
FOR THOSE CANADIANS WHO ALREADY VOLUNTEERED: Unless you have already been informed by me or by our legal team that you will not be a witness, there is still the possibility — or (for some) likelihood — that you will be asked to be a witness. I’m sorry but I cannot estimate the time it will take for our legal team to get back to you with their decision. This is because they need to “mesh” the characteristics of all of the necessary witnesses and testimonies with the actual detailed submission that contains the entirety of their evidence, which are all still evolving. Please be patient in our getting back to you with a decision. Thank you for your help.
@WhiteKat
“Canadian bankers in a bank near you, right now are discussing how to capture ‘US persons’ en masse.”
Any interaction I’ve had with the bank or broker is that most staff know little about it and don’t care much. I certainly haven’t met one that was on a mission to catch anyone.
Maz, my experience with Canadian FIs is exactly as you describe. For my existing accounts, they don’t want to know, even if they in fact already do know because I have been their client for decades. And when my Canadian born grown children opened their TFSAs, the level of questioning as to USness was so rudimentary and uncomprehending of the actual issues (“You don’t like go to the US a lot do you? “asked the admin assistant), that it just served to confirm my belief that this FATCA IGA business is something no one outside of the US wants.
They may not be on a mission now, but all it would take is for the IRS to make an example of one bank slacking off to change things – FAST!
@Maz57 and TheMom
Never meant to imply that any of the banksters were enthusiastic about rounding us up now or that they will be in future. Just doing their jobs, Like Mr. Perryman. And so far, their jobs here in Canada don’t require them to do too much digging as the US person round-up seems to be moving slowly right now. And that makes it pretty easy to stay under the radar currently. I haven’t had any problems yet either. My point was only that we shouldn’t count on the status quo remaining as is. Isn’t 2016 the year that the banks are to scrutinize existing accounts whereas last year the focus was on new accounts? There very well could be meetings going on right now in a certain Canadian FFI discussing ways to confirm US person status on existing accounts. Perhaps a mass mailout of some sort of FATCA letter for those with over 50K in accounts? Perhaps a direct question next time someone with over 50K has an appointment to sit in the green chair? IMO, just don’t think we should get too complacent here in Canada. It would not surprise me in the least, to see the smoke-out get to the point, even here in Canada, where Canadians will be required to prove a non-US birthplace.
“Perhaps the IRS issued you a 30 day FBAR demand for payment letter 3708/3709.” I wonder if people are receiving these letters yet or if FINCEN and the IRS are moving slowly. There no doubt will be a shock wave when these letters start coming.
The banks and bank employees are also victims of FATCA and undoubtedly fear the financial consequences of FATCA compliance/noncompliance issues. However this doesn’t excuse not standing up to the “US BULLY” by them or the government.
@BB, exactly.
IMO, anyone who thinks that their most likely worst case scenario is just to have to ‘tell a lie’ at the bank could be in for a rude awakening. Yeah, that might work now. But, it is just a matter of time before the FATCA train runs us all over. My fear is that by the time people realize they are about to be hit, there will be no lawsuit for them to participate in. Be a witness now while you still have the opportunity.
Well, WhiteKat, I wouldn’t disagree with anything you said in your last post. The good news from our perspective is that the US government in general and the IRS in particular are virtually disfunctional. I don’t think they are going to be paying all that much attention to the minute details of FATCA compliance of financial institutions around the world. But this is now; who knows what the future may hold? Who would have thought a few years ago that we would have even gotten to where we are now? Personally, I prefer to be cautiously hopeful, otherwise the whole situation would drive me crazy. (My wife thinks it already has, LOL!)
@maz57, the phrase ‘en masse’ perhaps didn’t really fit the sentence I used it in, and was referring not to the bankers, but to US persons with respect to suggesting that banks could be discussing how to find US persons (i.e. actually hunt them out) as opposed to the current sort of ‘don’t ask don’t tell’ approach. I agree, most of the line people likely are still ignorant of any of this. But that could soon change when they get their new instructions. The ones discussing (if they are discussing) how to round us up, would be their bosses.
ditto what others have said/experienced
the big 5 bank that has some of my accounts for years could not give a dang about where I was born
the credit union I am moving accounts to knew little to nothing about fatca and could care less about what they knew
game on uncle sam….come find me 🙂 cause I am not going to make it easy for you by telling you who or where I am…….
@Maz57 re: ” Personally, I prefer to be cautiously hopeful, otherwise the whole situation would drive me crazy. (My wife thinks it already has, LOL!)”
Even my husband who thought I was completely nuts when I had my OMG attack, now is starting to worry just a bit, or at least agree with me that I might have something to worry about. The train gets closer.
My bank HAD to make a choice…several times. I have been very vocal regarding FATCA and my apparent “citizenship” situation at every opportunity, prior to receiving a CLN and after. In every instance, my bank’s action (or inaction) has been to my benefit. I assume this was because it was to THEIR benefit, as well.
Worry is a good thing though. It’s what makes us jump out of the way of the train before it hits us. Be a witness.
Even if you think YOU can jump out of the way in time, what about your children? Do you want them to live in a country where something like the place of your birth can limit your freedoms and opportunities for your entire life? If not, be a witness,
I think that the banks view FATCA as nothing but an unnecessary administrative cost and a potential loss of customers, so I doubt very much they will ever do more than the absolute bare minimum required to avoid the US slapping on sanctions.
Historically, what has always been done to weed out a certain class of people or to remove unwanted animals, is to put a price tag (a bounty) on the head or belt, where a bounty hunter is paid a fee for a severed head or whatever proof was deemed sufficient for payment. So if the banks were offered a bounty to locate US Persons, maybe then they will get a lot more interested in doing more digging, however I don’t think the USG will be offering the banks a bounty, they would not accept it, too much bad PR, but we could see 3rd party bounty hunters paid by a percentage of FBAR collection fees or tax penalties because in that case no one but the victims will be paying for their own demise.
I do however welcome such draconian initiatives, because the amorality of it will help further expose the horrors of what’s actually going on, and I think FATCA has only gone this far because it has been kept mostly in the dark, it is a costly amoral embarrassment and not something anyone wants to hold up to exposure. We need more sun light shining down on this bit of nasty business, that’s the ultimate cure.
re: “so I doubt very much they will ever do more than the absolute bare minimum required to avoid the US slapping on sanctions…”
What is bare minimum today may not be bare minimum a year or two from now.
“Reminds me of Donald Trump’s retarded statement that he’ll ban Muslims from entering the USA, uh, you cannot tell who is a Muslim unless the person admits to it.”
Sure you can. When they pray 5 times a day, look to see if the direction they’re facing is towards Mecca.
“I plan on relocating my place of birth too, however, what happens when the FATCA police start requesting official papers (eg birth certificate) proving where you were born?”
My dog ate it. My dog is named Social Security Administration. The SSA used US mail to send me Form SS-5 (though delivery was completed by Japan Post). Form SS-5 gives examples of documents to attach, for example birth certificates. The SSA used US mail to solicit me into mailing my birth certificate and another document attached to Form SS-5, and the SSA received my birth certificate by US mail (though I used Japan Post to mail it). It’s only been 11 years, so maybe the SSA will return my birth certificate instead of committing postal fraud.
Though if I’d known that US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit was eventually going to rule that I was frivolous in neglecting to fabricate a social security number for my wife, maybe I should have just fabricated one for myself too and been done with it. Hey yeah, I really should have done that: http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2016/04/13/irs-admits-it-encourages-illegals-to-steal-social-security-numbers-for-taxes/#c520a9c237ab
“What is bare minimum today may not be bare minimum a year or two from now.”
Well, we know that no one is paying a dime right now, and the whole point of this insanity must be to eventually make the slaves pay up.
I can see them doing boarder checks, but once word gets out most people will simply stop crossing over. Next step will be to instruct the Canadian government to force the banks to pay up by confiscating money from the slaves accounts, but by that time everyone will have moved out of the banks and hidden their money somewhere else. Next up is extradition, but a bunch of penniless slaves in prison costs more money than they’ll ever hope to make.
I appears that they never really thought this stupid thing through, or they thought we’d all roll over and happily play their stupid game..
Oh, I left out a very important clause.
“Form SS-5 gives examples of documents to attach, for example birth certificates”
should be:
Form SS-5 gives examples of documents to attach, for example birth certificates, AND SAYS THAT THE DOCUMENTS WILL BE RETURNED.
That’s why it will be postal fraud if the SSA doesn’t return my birth certificate. I’ve been holding my breath 11 years.
“Well, we know that no one is paying a dime right now”
I paid around US$800 one time and around US$1,200 one time. Actually I overpaid both times and the IRS refunded the overpayments. I guess I was lucky that my payments were processed by honest employees (there are a few, though we don’t often hear of them).
There were around three earlier occasions when I had made payments but became eligible for full refunds.
Roger Ver’s payment of US$325,000 is shown in the upper right corner of this image: https://twitter.com/rogerkver/status/552570734481272832
@Norman Diamond: Sure you can. When they pray 5 times a day, look to see if the direction they’re facing is towards Mecca.
Easily avoided. If you’re near the northeast coast of Mexico, then Washington DC and Mecca are in roughly the same direction along a great circle. So you enter via Matamoros/Brownsville, and if anyone catches you praying, you just claim that you kowtow towards Mordor five times per day like a good US Code-worshipper. It’s the American civic religion!
Now that comments are open again on this thread (thanks pacifica777) I find myself with nothing to say except to reaffirm my support for the ADCS team. I wonder if anyone from Stanstead is lurking on Brock? If so … glad to have you!
EmBee,
I suspect that no one from Stanstead knows about this website. They only found out that other Canadians were aware of their problems and were pursuing a FATCA lawsuit from the weekly ads placed in the Stanstead Journal. I continue to wonder: How many of the total affected Canadians are reached through Brock?
Question:
Does anyone know whether Italy has a tax treaty with the U.S. such that the Italian tax authority CANNOT collect monies (eg., FBAR penalties) to assist the IRS in collection — if the person is a citizen of Italy?
@Stephen
Did a lot of people you’ve heard from in Stanstead first learn about their problems through your ads, because I would think that anyone who was previously aware of their problems would have maybe found Brock when researching their problems.
@Stephen, re assistance in collection;
……..”One of the five countries that has a collection treaty with the United States is Denmark. The other four are Canada, France, the Netherlands and Sweden….. “…….
from
http://procedurallytaxing.com/why-is-the-irs-collecting-taxes-for-denmark-2/
February 16, 2016 by Keith Fogg
I can’t find anything specific re Italy’s treaty with the US, but found more than one list of the five named above.
@Stephen, what @Badger said and here is some more….
There is something called “The Multilateral Convention On Mutual Administrative Assistance In Tax Matters” which is a massive collection treaty.
The bad news is that the USA and Italy both signed it.
The good news for everyone one, is that whilst the USA signed it, they opted out of assistance in collection OTHER than a foreign power can use the mail/post!
Congress discussed this in 2014;
https://www.jct.gov/publications.html?func=startdown&id=4550
In regards to Denmark, Canada, France, the Netherlands and Sweden, they all in their Tax Treaty with the USA have that same vaunted language that Flahrety touted about Canada, the truth is that each of these countries all exclude collecting against their citizens!!
So what does all this mean?
The USA is impotent in getting ANY government to do the dirty work and collect tax, penalty and interest against any of its citizens!! But there are five countries that will throw non-citizen residents under the bus.