WITNESS SEARCH UPDATE FOR CANADIAN FATCA IGA LAWSUIT:
WE STILL SEEK MORE CANADIAN WITNESSES:
Have you experienced marital stress or breakup, or medical or psychiatric illness because Canada turned you and your family over to a foreign country — or because you were afraid and entered into IRS compliance and suffered harm, or because you are in “hiding” and can’t afford to be IRS compliant or to renounce? Be a witness.
No single witness will be “perfect” from a litigation point of view. We will be seeking more witnesses (almost) right up to the time of submission of court documents. Your specific situation, that we cannot predict, might have unique characteristics that would be helpful in the lawsuit.
If you cannot be a witness, please tell a friend who you think might be interested.
— If you are interested in becoming a witness You will describe your harm in a written affidavit which will be made public and you can contact me at stephen.kish.chair@adcs-adsc.ca See our website at www.adcs-adsc-ca
FOR THOSE CANADIANS WHO ALREADY VOLUNTEERED: Unless you have already been informed by me or by our legal team that you will not be a witness, there is still the possibility — or (for some) likelihood — that you will be asked to be a witness. I’m sorry but I cannot estimate the time it will take for our legal team to get back to you with their decision. This is because they need to “mesh” the characteristics of all of the necessary witnesses and testimonies with the actual detailed submission that contains the entirety of their evidence, which are all still evolving. Please be patient in our getting back to you with a decision. Thank you for your help.
@badger
I agree, no one should have any reason to fear having “too much money” in a bank account, and to demonstrate that there is harm by intentionally walking directly into “harms way” illustrates the whole point brilliantly.
The reason why/how the money got there does not matter (provided it was legal), it’s no ones business why/how. If an attempt was made to suggest that the harm was “self-inflicted” or designed to further a cause, it will bring up the opportunity to illustrate just how bad the situation is for regular folks going about their normal activities. It will show that what is ordinarily of no concern for most people, is a concern for “US Persons”, otherwise the act of depositing the money would not be point worth challenging by the opposition.
@MuzzledNoMore, re ;”“A person should not be compelled to avoid harm by enforcing illegal and unconstitutional barriers on themselves, or by refraining from being in a situation in which others would or might act illegally and unconstitutionally against them.””
As @Bubblebustin has pointed out, those without obvious US indicia for the Banksters to find on most ID, such as a US birthplace, (but having sufficient qualifying US parentage making them a deemed USP under US law) are basically being told in a sidewise nudge nudge wink wink by the CRA and the CBA to lay low, fly under the radar and not to out themselves. As are greencard holders resident in Canada, who in the eyes of the US who have not surrendered the card in the manner demanded (see ex. http://hodgen.com/tax-residency-starting-termination-dates-for-green-card-holders/ http://hodgen.com/reverse-time-avoid-exit-tax-if-you-are-a-green-card-holder/ http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2015/10/25/new-form-i-407-relinquishing-a-green-card-and-learning-the-hard-way/ ).
See the FAQs and answers as posted on the CRA site:
‘Enhanced financial account information reporting Information for individuals with accounts with Canadian financial institutions’
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/nhncdrprtng/ndvdls-eng.html
…………..
“I hold a U.S. green card. How does this affect my tax residency?
If you are a green card holder (that is, a lawful permanent resident of the U.S.), the U.S. considers you to be a U.S. resident.
However, if you are a resident of Canada for tax purposes and do not hold U.S. citizenship, you should not identify yourself as a U.S. person to your Canadian financial institution.”
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/nhncdrprtng/ndvdls-eng.html
What else could that answer from the CRA mean given that we (and they) very well know that it is entirely possible to have an unsurrendered US greencard ( as Embee says, the ‘kryptonite card’) and be a tax resident of Canada, and still be considered by the US to be a UStaxableperson ala CBT and FATCA and FBAR.
That tells me that the CRA is directing certain of FATCA and USinfected Canadians to;
be compelled to avoid harm by enforcing illegal and unconstitutional barriers on ourselves, or by refraining from being in a situation in which others (i.e. the CRA, the Banksters, etc.) would or might act illegally and unconstitutionally against us.
Exactly. They encourage Canadians with “U.S. Personhood” to lie and hide but if we get outed or FATCA’d we’re on our own and will be sacrificed. Is this attitude of the CRA and Government of Canada not acknowledging that what they are doing is illegal and unconstitutional.
The Canadian government is advising green card holders and US persons with no outward indicia ‘stay in their attics’, yet answer honestly whether they are US persons on their long-form census.
BB, the government did not tell us to answer honesty about our US status. Just to answer. I suspect they will be thrilled if we deny our own existence in the official census.
@WK
Here’s a possible solution:
D’Amato: How about a ‘None of your Business’ button on census questionnaire?
http://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/6529190-d-amato-how-about-a-none-of-your-business-button-on-census-questionnaire-/
@badger
Too funny. The CRA is telling us that they intend to work against the Canada-US agreement with respect to identifying “US Persons”.
On the website:
… Since Canada has agreed to identify U.S. persons (U.S. residents and U.S. citizens) with certain financial accounts in Canada, your Canadian financial institution may ask whether you are a U.S. person. ….
… you should not identify yourself as a U.S. person to your Canadian financial institution.
The main point of what the CRA is saying, is that if you can lay low and not be identified, then do not identify yourself! Um, so why did Canada agree to identify “US Persons” in the first place?
I know that there’s some context in between that I cut out, but it does not affect the meaning at all, go ahead and read all of it to see for yourself.
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/nhncdrprtng/ndvdls-eng.html
So now we see that there will be at least 3 types of Canadians:
1) A Canadian – mmmm donuts
2) A Canadian who is a “US Person” that CAN hide – woo hoo!
3) A Canadian who is a “US Person” that CANNOT hide – Doh!
There’s also a 4th type of Canadian who is caught between a rock and a hard place, that is a Type 1 Canadian who is somehow financially linked up with a Type 2 or 3 Canadian, eg marriage, etc. – Please don’t eat me! I have a wife and kids. Eat them!
@MiddleFinger. When was that added to the web site. I don’t remember seeing that but haven’t checked the site for sometime? Is this new?
@Middle Finger
The context that your are cutting out is that this is the guidance for green card holders only.
However, if you read on, it also explains that those citizens that have relinquished would not get reported. Can I conclude that I am not a “US Person” because I fully intended to give up the citizenship when I took the oath of Canadian citizenship many years ago? Having a silly piece of paper (CLN), should not make it so.
And why is it Canadians living in the US are exempt from having their RDSP’s, TFSA’s and RESP’s reported to the IRS via the CRA under the Canadian FATCA IGA?
@Marie. You’re right. I got excited there for a moment.
@Marie
“The context that your are cutting out is that this is the guidance for green card holders only. ”
OK, but what am I misreading?
If you are a green card holder (that is, a lawful permanent resident of the U.S.), the U.S. considers you to be a U.S. resident. … since Canada has agreed to identify U.S. persons (U.S. residents and U.S. citizens) …
The CRA is advising that you do not identify yourself when you hold a greed card, but why not when everything else says that Canada has agreed to identify you when the US considers you to be a US resident? Does the IGA exempt people with greed cards?
Marie. Your situation is covered in the IGA. Banks are supposed to accept a ‘self certification’ that you are not a ‘US Person’. This would essentially mean signing a W8-Ben. If you also have a US birth place that they know about they are supposed to accept a reasonable explanation why you don’t have a CLN. Relinquishing years ago is a reasonable explanation because back then there was no requirement to inform the State Dep’t or to obtain a CLN. A Brocker called white birch went down that route with his FI. It was MD Management if I recall correctly.
OK, I discovered that the CRA green card question is already covered here
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2016/04/03/are-green-card-holders-resident-outside-the-usa-us-persons-under-the-fatca-iga/
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/06/26/please-provide-in-this-post-questions-big-canadian-banks-will-ask-new-account-holders-on-july-2-2014/comment-page-12/#comment-5187199
“If you also have a US birth place that they know about they are supposed to accept a reasonable explanation why you don’t halve a CLN.”
What I read when I researched the possibility of relinquishing, is that if you were born in the US to Canadian parents and immediately registered as a Canadian, then relinquishing was not an option because there’s no opportunity allowing for you to relinquish US citizenship by becoming a Canadian since since you have always been a Canadian.
Calgary; You must have a good memory or filing system-better than mine- Silver Birch not white birch
Middle Finger; You are correct except that Marie’s situation was different than yours.
From the CRA website:
“Does the agreement require Canadian financial institutions to report to the CRA on any individuals who relinquished their U.S. citizenship?
No. Canadian financial institutions do not have to report on any individuals who have relinquished their U.S. citizenship and are not residents of the U.S.
Financial institutions may ask individuals who have relinquished their U.S. citizenship for documentation to this effect.”
Now for an exercise– what are some easy ways to show one has relinquished without paying $2350 USD for an American piece of paper?
My thoughts:
1) Show bank a copy of signed citizenship oath from your citizenship file ($5 to order on line– I have mine).
2) Show bank Canadian passport with visitor stamps to US (I have multiple “B2” stamps in mine).
3) Print out visitor record from US Border website which shows your record of entries to the US as a non-resident alien.
4) Have a notary or your lawyer witness a document and put an official stamp on it saying that you relinquished your USC on such and such date.
I personally would be inclined to show #1 plus #2 (hypothetically)– these would, in my opinion, constitute a “reasonable explanation for loss of USC.” In reality, though, I have no plan to disclose my American heritage– in practice, if anyone asks where I’m from, I will tell them I was born in Montreal.
P.S. Thanks for the CRA link @Badger!
@all
I submitted the following comments anonymously to CRA as part of the “enquiry” tab:
“I am submitting an enquiry regarding the following section from this webpage:
“Does the agreement require Canadian financial institutions to report to the CRA on any individuals who relinquished their U.S. citizenship?
No. Canadian financial institutions do not have to report on any individuals who have relinquished their U.S. citizenship and are not residents of the U.S.
Financial institutions may ask individuals who have relinquished their U.S. citizenship for documentation to this effect.”
Could CRA provide specific examples as to how a Canadian citizen may document that he or she has relinquished previous U.S. citizenship?
Examples might include:
1) A copy of one’s Canadian Citizenship file which includes a copy of an individual’s citizenship oath (individual swears true allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen of Canada).
2) Canadian passport stamps demonstrating entry into United States as a “Non-Resident Alien”– e.g. “B2 visitor stamps”.
3) Printout of US Homeland Security record demonstrating record of entry into United States as a NRA–
https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/consent.html;jsessionid=4XGbX0hS2By73svcgQR5hT6TZQdGny6Vwhx09PXr8kGgT56wNnTT!1768450103
4) Document from a Canadian Notary affirming a prior act which the US Department of State states may result in loss of US citizenship such as:
a) naturalizing as a Canadian citizen.
b) enrolling in the Canadian Armed Forces.
c) accepting employment with the Canadian federal government, a provincial government, or a municipal government.
I am a Canadian citizen of American descent. I have lived in Canada for close to 25 years and naturalized as a Canadian citizen back in 2001. I relinquished my US citizenship at the time I swore an oath of allegiance to the Queen. My Canadian passport bears multiple entry stamps to the US as a visitor. For me, it would not be acceptable to be told I need to purchase a “Certificate of Loss of Nationality” (CLN) from the US government for a fee of $2,350 USD in order to document my prior relinquishment of US citizenship for FATCA IGA purposes. I am requesting that the CRA provide some specific guidance as to how individuals may more reasonably document prior loss of US citizenship.
Thank you.”
@BC Doc
“I have no plan to disclose my American heritage– in practice, if anyone asks where I’m from, I will tell them I was born in Montreal.”
Reminds me of Donald Trump’s retarded statement that he’ll ban Muslims from entering the USA, uh, you cannot tell who is a Muslim unless the person admits to it.
I plan on relocating my place of birth too, however, what happens when the FATCA police start requesting official papers (eg birth certificate) proving where you were born?
“I plan on relocating my place of birth too, however, what happens when the FATCA police start requesting official papers (eg birth certificate) proving where you were born?”
MiddleFinger, that would be a problem, and one that we may face soon when the banks start ramping up their US perrson hunt. A couple thoughts come to mind, Find someone who knows someone who can alter birthplace on your passport. Or be a witness to the Canadian lawsuit if you meet the characteristics that the team is looking for, while you still have the opportunity.
MF, I was kind of joking about the passport alteration. Sort of. The point I was trying to get at, is that the ‘having to prove it with papers’ scenario you describe is likely coming if we don’t stop the FATCA train sooner rather than later. Canadian bankers in a bank near you, right now are discussing how to capture ‘US persons’ en masse.
@WhiteKat.
” Canadian bankers in a bank near you, right now are discussing how to capture ‘US persons’ en masse.”
I’m not convinced Canadian bankers are particularly enthusiastic about discovering US persons hiding among their customers. While it is true the Canadian banks wielded undue influence with our politicians to get the IGA, that was because they were scared to death of FATCA’s 30% confiscation, not because FATCA suddenly transformed them into fire-breathing US person hunters.
My experience with my own banks indicates that the opposite seems to be the case; they are barely going through the motions needed to meet the letter of the law. The bank employees best positioned to ferret out US persons, namely the front line staff, have never even heard of FATCA. That doesn’t strike me like a good strategy for actively seeking out US customers
There is no way FATCA is good for their customer relations, and I expect most bankers wish it had never happened. Unless they accidentally stumble upon some US-ness, they are perfectly happy to carry on business as usual without looking for trouble. When and if a question does come up, any “reasonable explanation” should be accepted without further inquisition. Their overriding interest is to try to do what bankers always try to do….make money.
Based on my banking experience, I agree with maz57.