Cross posted from the Renounce U.S. Citizenship blog.
Assistance required. Many people defend (not justify) citizenship taxation on the basis that:
- All U.S. citizens are subject to the same provisions of the Internal Revenue Code
- Americans abroad are U.S. citizens
Therefore, Americans abroad should be subject to the same provisions of the Internal Revenue Code as Homelanders.
Or in Homelanderspeak:
All U.S. citizens are subject to exactly the same set of tax laws. What could be unjust about that? We are ALL citizens. Therefore, we should ALL be subject to the same set of laws.
Could you please address your mind to the following question:
What is the best response to this argument? How can one best explain that it is wrong to justify citizenship taxation on the basis that ALL citizens are subject to it in the same ways?
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"not sure why u believe the tax law ur asked 2 adhere 2 is unequal. It = tax system that all other citizen r held 2" https://t.co/e7HSt5hgCZ
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) November 8, 2015
The above tweet references the following recent comment on a Robert Wood’s blog.
I’m not sure why you believe the tax law you’re being asked to adhere to is unequal. It’s the same tax system that all other citizens are held to, except you get income exemptions due to not being resident. I agree that relinquishing should not be a financial burden. However, if the burden of complying is less than the one time $3000 cost of relinquishing, then how much of a burden is it?
This is very similar to the rationale used by Judge Rose in denying the injunction in the Republicans Overseas FATCA lawsuit.
You will find Judge Rose’s decision here. Commentary on the ADCSovereignty blog included:
You may recall the wisdom from 17th Century France (I wasn’t there) …
“The law in its majesty equality prohibits both the rich and the poor from sleeping on the park bench.”
Which Judge Rose carried forward into 21st Century America (I am here) …
FATCA in its majestic equality requires both Homelanders and Americans abroad to report their “foreign” bank accounts.
In the same way that the practical impact of the “park bench” law is to apply only to the poor, the FATCA reporting requirements apply only to Americans abroad.
In other words, Judge Rose is NOT looking to the effect of the law to consider a denial of equal protection.
Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Japan T: I, too, have copied your extraordinary post of Nov. 9 into my file of “must reads”. Fabulous synopsis of the inequities of the US tax system when applied to people like all of us! Thank you so much!
@MuzzeledNoMore.
It means a lot to know that. Most Americans and US Persons I try to tell of this, mostly friends and colleagues in an effort to inform them of the dangers either call me a kook, or worse, or just remain silent. Often seems like shouting alone in the wilderness.
How is it that an American’s obligation to register for selective service stops as the border? You’d think that “serving one’s country” would rank higher than taxation in the minds of homelanders, yet we are forgiven this display of tribute.
The US government used to imprison homelanders who didn’t sign up, but changed the punishment because it was too draconian and was actually thought to discourage compliance. Now they just withhold certain benefits and prohibit federal employment. Could we possibly create a parallel here that might benefit our argument, if only on a philosophical basis?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_Service_System
We sure can. Any US citizen who lives abroad should be denied Medicare.
We need to find a way to destroy that inane retort we commonly hear, “..if you have nothing to hide…”.
Ask them if they have anything to hide.
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“No? Ok then let’s go to the police station, you and I, right now. Yes, right now. You can give them a copy if every single key you have, the key to your home, car, the shed out back, to your safety deposit box, everything. Why the uncomfortable look? You have nothing to hide, right? Ok then, let’s go. While there, also give what they would need to access all your financial records, phone bills, credit card purchases, online purchase, withdrawals, deposits, pay per view history. Give them all you passwords to all you electronic data storage devices and the websites you have memberships for.
Invite the police to do a complete inventory of everything in your home. Let them inventory and photograph your medicine cabinet, under your sink, the garage, attic, basement, storage shed, dresser, hamper, trunk of your car, your safety deposit box, everything.
Ta ta ta! What do you mean “No way!”? You have nothing to hide, remember.
Then invite them to share all the information with every government agency that asks for it.
Have any past date prescription medications in your medicine cabinet. FDA and DEA will be having some words with you very shortly. Have some ancient long forgotten, once legal OTC meds that are now outlawed? Possible Prison time for you.
How about all those old p, polluting, non environmentally friendly cleaners, pesticides and such in dusty, rusty, dented containers under your sink and or in your shed? Are those being stored in accordance to the relevant laws and regulations? Are they even still legal to have in possession? Big time fines or worse for you. Possibly loss of your children if the relevant authorities believe your improper storage of HAZMAT put them in any undue danger.
Have any old FREON canisters stashed away by your grand dad back when the house was his that perhaps you don’t even know about. Whoa, that’s a big time fine! Possibly worse.
Oh, you work pout of your home, do you now? Well, well, surely you are in compliance with all the relevant regulations dealing with safe and healthy work environments. Of course you have an OSHA approved fire suppression system? Following all labor laws and regulations too, no doubt
Have any old receipts of purchases from the last family trip out of state that you did not report on your state taxing authority (a requirement of some states) so that your state can assess sales tax?
Have any tobacco or alcohol products picked up on the way home from your out of state trip that don’t have your state’s tax stamp?
But you said you have nothing to hide? Let’s go, right now, you and I to the police station.”
Very sheepishly (I would hope) “I see your point.” The fool finally answers.
“No sir! You DO NOT! Not until you understand that all the agencies that will be combing through the data You demand I provide are agencies that are, at best ones outside of the land I live in and at worst foreign! As a US Citizen I must turn over all data on all financial assets I have on interest in…Including those of my non US citizen spouse, my non US citizen children, my non US citizen employer, business partner, girl scout troop etc! Everyone I have any sort of financial ties with, I must report to a foreign government! A foreign government that will comb through all the assets I have an interest in to see if I am complying with their laws, not the laws of the nation I live in, not the laws of the native land and residence of my family and associates. My children, not US citizens but claimed by you nonetheless must report the same to the US, a foreign government to them. Will you do so?
No!? No!?!? No, You say!? Then by what right do you DEMAND THAT I DO SO?
Hmm? What’s that? Don’t you DARE demand that I do what YOU WILL NOT! DON’T
YOU DARE!
Do you now have some understanding why we have the Constitution and the 4th &5th amendments? Do you now have some little understanding how wrong all this is?
Yes? Good. So now, what are you going to do about it? See, I and my family and associates in Japan can not even vote in your elections to stop this. You can. But it will take a lot more than just you to stop this misuse and abuse of your fellow citizens and their non US citizen families.”
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@JapanT: And after all that eloquent outrage, you know and I know what’s the next thing they’ll say:
“Well, if it’s really as bad as you say, why don’t you just denounce? Simple.”
Waiting for your reply to that one.
Ever see Arthur Miller’s play “The Crucible”, about the Salem witch trials? We could plug some of your writings into that script and update it to the FATCA witch trials.
Sterotypical homelander: “Well, if it’s really as bad as you say, why don’t you just denounce? Simple.”
Retort: It’s not as simple as it should be, and not as affordable as it should be, but guess why renunciations are hitting record highs? Sure there’s the 1% who are rich and really do avoid taxes that way, but they’re not the ones setting record thousands of renunciations. We’re the 99%.
Also: Why was Ted Cruz able to renounce Canadian citizenship for $75[*] and a simple letter? Why do we have to spend thousands of dollars, which we can’t afford, to gain our freedom?
[* assuming this is US dollars when talking to a homelander]
What is this, the Spanish inquisition? I didn’t expect the Spanish Inquisition! (Barbara whispers to someone, “Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.”)
That is the next retort, isn’t it? Of all the responses I have received, this one really and truly offends me. Offends me big time. I have not responded as my heart dictates out of fear a visiting great bodily harm upon the idiot you made the retort. So I have answered along the lines Norman suggests. So far that sort of answer has satisfied neither the moron who I directed it towards nor myself.
Next time I will do my utmost to restrain my anger as I give them the following answer.
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“That’s your answer?!?!! “If you don’t like the fact that our government is breaking the law and violating your rights, just leave.”? That’s your response to all this?! How about this, why don’t YOU follow the law and leave my family and I alone?
How about my spouse, children and my children’s spouses? Most have never even set foot in the US nor speak our language. And you say that if they don’t like having to pay tribute to the “Land of the Free” then they can just buy their freedom. What kind of sick puppy are you, anyway, to demand that people who are not even citizens, my family, must submit 6 years of tax and reporting returns over 7000 of pages worth for each year, a total of 42,000 pages, AND pay over $2000 to gain their freedom from YOU?
Are you happy about the NSA snooping into everything you do? No? Well then shut up and leave! Don’t like the fact that health care costs more than you pay? Shut up and leave!
I am an American, I don’t run from problems, I fix them. How about you!?”
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This last comment is not directed at anyone other than homelanders and homelanders abroad. Those of you who have left or are on the path to do so are not who I am directing the comment and question above to. We have been denied our rights to fight. Homelanders have not. I am commenting on their real lack of the American spirit and asking them to put their money where their mouth is.
I have come to believe that we must personalize this. On a totally nonrelated website, I attempted to warm my fellow hobbyists of this danger and of course got in quite an exchange.
Later, in a private forum of the same website, I tried again. One with whom I had earlier crossed swords with suddenly came around to my side. I asked why they had done so when 6 months earlier they wouldn’t budge. In short, it was because I had personalized the telling the second time where I had not the first. He had not understood that one making so little as I do and who owed no tax as I do not would have to submit to all the reporting and on a yearly basis an pay such huge fines for each error. In short, he had believed what little was reported in the homeland media and what his college business professor said about it.
More later…
@Barbara
I forgot to direct my last to you, Barbara.
Probably not a problem but just in case, just wanted to make sure you see my response.
Still, Japan T, the person would still have to give the police the authority (keys). The better analogy would be the police using battering rams to enter your home without probable cause.
On the “denounce” response, the fact that it’s so expensive to remain an American abroad or to renounce only proves to the homelander that US citizenship is more valuable than others because they think of everything in terms of monetary value – which in any other term cheapens it.
@Bubblebustin
Below are my unfinished thoughts on your comment. You raised some good points and at least wanted you to see what thoughts were bouncing around, lest It be thought I was avoiding these good comments.
“Still, Japan T, the person would still have to give the police the authority (keys). The better analogy would be the police using battering rams to enter your home without probable cause.”
True. I was focusing on the “If you have nothing to hide…” as if they felt we should voluntarily comply, which it seems to me that that is how they feel. We could work in the fact of forceful entry without cause nor warrant.
However, it seems from comments made here and in my own dealings that homelanders believe we have given the authorities permission (keys) via our voluntary act of moving overseas. They seem to believe that it as natural as rain that once an American goes abroad that they should expect to have all their rights violated by the US government. To them, there is no forceful entry as we have already given them the keys.
“On the “denounce” response, the fact that it’s so expensive to remain an American abroad or to renounce only proves to the homelander that US citizenship is more valuable than others because they think of everything in terms of monetary value – which in any other term cheapens it. ”
Cost and value are not the same. Only if the cost is voluntarily paid does it reflect the value.
There are those in the world that believe that $100. for a bottle of a certain wine would be a great buy. Others wouldn’t take it for free, preferring some other drink.
Some may think that they would get more value out of their $100. by buying a rod and reel. Lets take the $100. bottle of wine and give it to a teetotaler and the fishing rod from the angler and give it to one who hates to be outdoors and tell them just how valuable these items are to them.
How much did the homelander pay for their citizenship? I served six years in the navy. I paid some part of their freedom. Those who did not return paid far, far more. But what does any of that mean to my family who are Japanese? U.S. Citizenship is of no value to one that must pay huge sums of money to live in their native land free of US law.
“If you have nothing to hide…”
Victor Kugler, Johannes Kleiman, Miep Gies, and Bep Voskuijl shouldn’t have hid anything either, right?
“They seem to believe that it as natural as rain that once an American goes abroad that they should expect to have all their rights violated by the US government.”
So why did some authors put a description in their document as “this Constitution for the United States of America” instead of “this Constitution for Residents of the United States of America”. Could it possibly be because the document establishes what powers and limits the United States has instead of describing which class of people deserve protection from a monster?
When the Frank family went to the Netherlands they should expect to have all their rights violated by the German government, right?
“They seem to believe that it as natural as rain that once an American goes abroad that they should expect to have all their rights violated by the US government.”
So why did some authors put a description in their document as “this Constitution for the United States of America” instead of “this Constitution for Residents of the United States of America”. Could it possibly be because the document establishes what powers and limits the United States has instead of describing which class of people deserve protection from a monster?
Remember, one of Obama’s favorite theories is that of the Constitution being one of “negative liberties”. He most certainly does not agree with the limiting the power of gov. aspect of it.
When the Frank family went to the Netherlands they should expect to have all their rights violated by the German government, right?
Homelanders seem to think so. When put to them like that, they may balk, but I doubt it changes their mind. The US is not Nazi Germany, you see.
I really fear no one but a very few can understand this that is not facing it themselves.