UPDATE SEPTEMBER 19, 2015: SEE ALSO DISCLAIMER AND LITIGATION UPDATES.
[This post, which began in May and having over 1000 revisions and 2000 comments, is being retired from service and updates. It lived through the success of reaching a total of $500,000 in donations from our kind, dear supporters who had little money to give, the hope and disappointment with the summary trial decision, and the certainty that we are now finally moving on to the Charter trial.]
CANADIAN CHARTER TRIAL UPDATE:
— We have instructed the Arvay team to prepare for the “Constitutional-Charter” trial. This means that our focus now, as it was in the beginning of our lawsuit, is on the Charter trial.
Unless there is a new expense in the future that we have not anticipated, the monies from your donations will be sufficient to take us through the “constitutional-charter” trial in Federal Court. However, to pay other legal bills we will need additional donations from our supporters, and a request for donations will appear on another post soon.
OUR LITIGATION HISTORY:
One year ago, on August 11, 2014, Litigator Joseph Arvay filed a FATCA IGA lawsuit in Canada Federal Court on behalf of Plaintiffs Ginny and Gwen, the Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty (en français), and all peoples.
Because of a Government delay we initiated a “summary trial”, using a portion of the arguments, which offered the possibility of preventing private banking information from being turned over to the IRS before September 30, 2015. See Alliance’s Claims, our Alliance blog, and AUGUST 4-5 SUMMARY TRIAL FILINGS in LITIGATION UPDATES.
The crown says “that’s a political question” when asked if CRA will collect US tax debts on behalf of the IRS.
It just shows us that tax collection is in the pipeline. I think we all see that coming. I certainly do. The US is not going to demand piles of financial data on “US persons” and then just sit on it. Eventually there will be another FATCA-type law that demands collection. And the Canadian government will legislate it just as easily as they did FATCA.
Marie, I am BOLDING what I agree must be the eventual US purpose:
And, the Canadian government will legislate it just as easily as they did FATCA!!!! Our fight and our fundraising and all litigation must not stop. http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/
Yikes, now realization of another possibility — the man in the moon may be a US-deemed American Abroad…
Having contributed significantly to the ADCS legal fund, I have been following the trial with great interest and am hoping for a verdict in Ginny and Gwen’s favour. I am puzzled and disappointed by the continuing lack of coverage of the FATCA/IGA coverage and the trial itself by major Canadian news organizations. Why is press coverage of this so limited?
We all know that it would help a lot in raising funds for the appeal if many more of the “U.S. persons” impacted by FATCA and the IGAs became aware of the stakes involved for them. I am no longer, myself, a “U.S. person”; so I am not directly affected by FATCA/IGA. I do understand that all Canadians are impacted by it indirectly and that it really is a threat to Canadian sovereignty. I have been supporting the ADCS court action financially for that reason, but I cannot afford to continue making contributions to the fund at the same rate any longer. My hope is that the verdict in the summary trial will go our way and will get good publicity, so that more people will be motivated to contribute money to the ADCS for the defence against the inevitable appeal by the government side.
What more can we do to raise public awareness of this?
@Calgary411
Adding insult to injury, the Canadian government will use the passage of FATCA to justify the passage of a tax collection law.
The will argue that if the US has the right to receive tax information as affirmed through FATCA, then they certainly have the right collect the taxes. The law is the law.
AnonAnon,
Yours is the question of the day,
So many of those affected will never believe it is a problem for them until they see that it is thoroughly and often covered and examined by the Canadian (and other country, including the USA) media — showing that this is not about what it is painted — *tax evasion* (by US-deemed US Persons Abroad in their own countries where they receive all services) but about control of US people, bypassing their own countries’ laws to forward information, their private financial information, including a tally of their assets, to a foreign country, the USA. The media needs to *connect the dots* that this is theft from other countries as through a Trojan horse.
Marie,
I can’t disagree. We need to be critically thinking of the next-steps for FATCA and beyond by both the US and our own countries. Asleep at the wheel is not appropriate.
Based on the updates we received, it seems we have the best lawyer in Canada while the feds had the worst.
Ginny says Joe Arvay is legal craftsman extraordinaire,
http://maplesandbox.ca/2015/joe-arvay-is-legal-craftsman-extraordinaire/
Let’s hope we have a new government after October 19 and maybe that government will stop fighting us in court,
Heave Steve!
@calgary411, as you know, the Canadian Bankers Association supports the IGA. In http://www.cba.ca/en/consumer-information/40-banking-basics/597-fatca-and-the-canada-us-intergovernmental-agreement-iga-information-for-clients-
it says:
“Do banks in Canada support the IGA? We understand that the U.S. government is attempting to reduce tax evasion, but we have publicly opposed FATCA as the wrong way to go about it. However, as the U.S. government has no intention of repealing FATCA, the CBA believes that entering into the IGA was the best approach under the circumstances.”
I wonder whether that has intimidated major Canadian news media from reporting on and opposing the IGA. Canadian banks are major commercial sponsors of Canadian news media and might withhold advertising from news media that disagreed with them about the IGA. It wouldn’t be the first time that priorities of advertising revenue have overridden editorial independence.
It is pretty much clear that Canadian media will NEVER say anything bad about the good ole USA. They have too much to lose if this gets out and they tell the truth. Sorry people, money wins over what is right in the case of our media. Canadian media has a US customer base too large to lose, it is as simple as that. Is it a wonder that the CBC is the only Canadian media to cover this in a large way? Even our own Canadian Steve Paikin will not even consider touching this. I would tend to think good old Steve was told to shut up on it. There is no other excuse. I think we need to focus on real world public demonstration and get out in the streets with information signs and attract crowds. I am beginning to realize that we need face to face public interaction. I personally will attend any and all campaign gatherings, public questioning etc. of ALL federal candidates in my area with some VERY important questions regarding Fatca.It is time to show support for not only Ginny and Gwen, but Canada as a whole. The word needs to get out and asap!
We also need written questions to ALL federal candidates. Murray Rankin and ALL others who stood up for us before, will they make their support CLEAR now? This is all pertinant to getting the word out. I know Elizabeth May will have no problem showing support for us….
Our goals:
1. Raise cash for ADCS legal fund
2. Raise awareness to gather even more financial and moral support
Both activities have been happening mainly within the confines of ADCS, IBS and Maple Sandbox. I now track other sites/organizations like American Expatriates and Republicans Overseas where there remains relatively limited awareness of our legal challenge, let alone fund-raising efforts. I believe that there is huge untapped potential there to attract a wider constituency of US Persons to our cause and to grow our community of financial supporters.
While there is much sound and fury happening with the SCE (Same Country Exception) initiative that DA, ACA, AARO, FAWCO and the Americans Abroad Caucus are pushing, I am certain that there are also definite pockets of support for our work within those organizations – we just need to find creative ways to reach-out to those individuals and to help them understand that our fight is also their fight. SCE is not universally supported by all members of these groups and I am certain that we can encourage more of them to join our crazy caravan.
Conversely, the parallel James Bopp / RO lawsuit in the US is also reaching-out for financial support. While the focus of most readers of IBS is rightly on the Canadian legal challenge, I do support the idea of a greater quid pro quo to assist anti-FATCA, anti-CBT challenges wherever they may be launched – perhaps soon in some other country besides Canada and the US.
Bottom line: we need to build new and better bridges to the wider community of US Persons. We may not see eye-to-eye on everything (far from it, in fact) but that doesn’t mean we can’t help each other out on areas of demonstrated common interest. At the same time, we must continue our efforts to educate the general public and to enlist their financial support, even though this will take time to achieve.
Finally, the mechanisms for making financial contributions to our fundraising campaign could also be revisited. I believe that having an option to make ongoing “micro-payments” would greatly help with the cumulative growth of our fund. Many fund-raising sites allow for monthly contributions (or some other interval) to easily enable a steady stream of input that is easier on the cash-flow challenges of most grassroots supporters.
Just a few thoughts to maybe launch some new initiatives as we shift gears into the next long phase of this marathon.
If there was a crowd of 500 at a federal candidate gathering, I would bet 498 of them have no idea about fatca or what the Cons have done to Canadians. First, Canadians need a crash course on Factca and it’s drain on Canadian financial banks, credit unions etc. and how ordinary Canadians are being extorted by the USA. Once Canadians are educated, then they will understand the importance of this issue at Candidates debates etc.
Have the banks informed ‘US’ persons in Canada that they will have their bank accounts reported to the US or will they report all who they suspect are us persons regardless?
Isn’t there a time table in which new accounts are reported first, then followed by existing accounts next year? I seem to remember reading that on the UK iga . Have those in the UK been informed by their banks?
Everyone and his dog in Switz seem to know what is going on as the banks require US persons to sign a privacy release or they will close your account.
UPDATE AFTER DAY 2 (through cross-post of link from @ADCSovereignty, John Richardson): @ADCSovereignty reaches “milestone” – End of #FATCA summary trial means the “End of the beginning”
Let us NEVER forget how Harper turned Canada into a TRUE DICTATORSHIP……The court-challenges program, he said, is critical to a healthy democracy and Canada’s system of checks and balances.
He said Harper’s approach denies all but the rich access to the courts and full protections under the Charter.
“This is the Canada he wants to build . . . fend for yourself, the federal government should not have to help you. We will not accept this kind of Canada. http://www.citynews.ca/2008/09/09/dion-fires-back-at-harper-promises-to-double-child-care-allowance/
From John’s post regarding Day 2 of the trial:
“As I finish this summary, I am reminded of how the Government lawyer characterized U.S. citizens in Canada. He said (perhaps inadvertently) that:
U.S. citizens living in Canada are either “U.S. tax compliant” OR that they are “tax cheats”.”
REALLY?!
My Canadian government is now labelling me a TAX CHEAT, in addition to an AMERICAN RESIDENT IN CANADA?!
@NativeCanadian my friend, I think a major part of the problem is the concept is simply too difficult to grasp by many.
Case in point, the lawyers for the Government yesterday. Simply, they were not prepared.
Here in the EU, I am still running into “US Persons” and most are not in compliance and are not worried. To that lack of worry I think of the people of Greece who did not take their money out of the banks before capital controls….then it was woe is me…
@Deckard…..you are right we need to get more publicity from sister organizations including RO, DA, ACA….. Has anyone sent them a press release and asking them point blank to publicize what happened the other day?
At least ninety percent of the *US* people I happen to run into / happen to relay information to (and I’ve run into more so-called *US people* in the past few years than I did in all the preceding years I’ve resided in and been a citizen of Canada) think THEY do not have a FATCA problem. Only the other guy who, unlike them, might not be doing what they need to be doing correctly.
Denial? It’s a lot to understand, but I have the feeling that most, for whatever strange reasons, are their own worst enemies (as well as never our supporters unless something changes). These people will not realize they too have *a US problem* until they hear it often in the news / connect the dots and have their OMG moment — that is if some of them ever listen to or read *the news* (because, as some say, it is just too depressing and brings them down).
I am definitely not a good communicator because the least I can suggest these people do (if they have any curiosity) is look further into it . I hope they have that little bit of curiosity, but I doubt it for many. Whatever I am communicating to them just is NOT ENOUGH.
Another big sigh for all these ostriches with their heads in the sand. Perhaps you can pick out those you’ve tried to inform, including those who are your government representatives of seek your vote to lead and look out for the welfare of your country:
Regarding US litigations:
Comment from Stephen via email:
That’s good news about the other lawsuit.
Having read John’s summary and commentary on Day 2 yesterday, in Vancouver, my first feeling was “Wow”. He conveys well the significance of the day and all that was said in the courtroom.
One question I had is answered, i.e., in a Summary Trial, does the judge write a detailed decision. John wrote:
“Regardless of his decision, Justice Martineau is likely to write a comprehensive decision that explores the facts and the issues. His decision will be reviewed on appeal and the contents of his decision will be a major part of the review.
I am confident that even if the Government wins round 1 (and I am not suggesting I believe this will happen), Justice Martineau’s decision is likely to include certain “findings”, “observations” and “arguments” that will be very helpful to ALL anti-FATCA and anti-CBT litigants going forward.”
In addition to Justice Martineau, the Plaintiffs lawyers and the Defence Lawyers, there were about 20 supporters in Federal court on August 4th and 5th. It was estimated that approximately 700,000 to 2 million US persons reside in Canada, with most being Canadian citizens. And when I look at our ADCS donations, supported by a relatively small number of regular donors, it makes me wonder.
It was a great experience to be in court and know that the few are doing a tremendous job and more than their share. But where are the rest of those US persons? This is not going to just go away if we do the ostrich routine. Thank you for that great photo Calgary411!
For example, let’s have a look at the recent news from Simon Black. The latest sneaky update for FBAR filing was hidden in the Surface Transportation and Veterans Health Care Choice Improvement Act of 2015 :
http://www.sovereignman.com/offshore-banking-2/important-update-to-fbar-filing-requirements-17334/?inf_contact_key=f9a723cb3f1c2f82c535e2dbfb28ce4e6061843d77cf0743b6e4e3b89217d0f8
In this Simon Black says,
“The FBAR filing deadline used to be June 30th every year, meaning that you had until June 30th to report all your financial accounts for the previous calendar year.
Now, HR 3236 changes the filing date to April 15th of each year to coincide with the US tax filing deadline.
This is pretty important news if you have a foreign bank account given that there are steep penalties for not filing.
But you won’t ever hear about it. At least not from the government.”
So the US government and IRS continue to lay traps for financial entrapment of anyone they can claim as a US person.
In the meantime, the Justice will likely be giving a ruling by September 13. Regardless of what this ruling is, the case will likely go on to appeal. I think we are all frightened but those of us who donate and support this cause are acting in spite of this fear.
I have to say that I was too fixated on trying to hear (often difficult) and comprehend what was being said, so didn’t take any notes. I hope others will bear with me as some of my more noteworthy events of the last two days begin to percolate to the surface. I hope with the recollections of other people who were there we can together fill in the gaps in each others memories, and correct any errors I undoubtably have in mine.
I want to say that it was a wonderful to put faces to many of the monikers out there. I want thank those who came from far to lend support to the plaintiffs, ADCS and the legal team. I believe everyone’s presence (and especially Gwen’s) made an impression on the judge. I also believe that after the first day he realized the potential magnitude of this case when he made reference to the audience and any journalists who may in attendance. Speaking of which, the only press on the event appears to be from my friend Neal Hall in Metro News. Unfortunately he didn’t attend either day, but his article was good and went so far as to include a link to ADCS to make donations. I’m trying to encourage him to continue with the badly needed coverage this story really needs by asking those who can to tweet and share as much as you can:
http://metronews.ca/news/vancouver/1445874/two-women-challenge-law-allowing-ottawa-to-give-info-to-u-s-tax-collectors/
Yes, it was a good day, and a REALLY great start. It was hard to contain myself when the lawyer for the Canadian government, MY Canadian government argued that by not throwing me and millions of others like me under the FATCA bus it would somehow make Canada delinquent in its commitment to cooperate on tax info exchange with the United States. I get the distinct feeling that the judge agrees that our government’s efforts in this regard go WAY TOO FAR!
I can say in no uncertain terms that Justice Martineau truly “get’s it”. He even thought of scenarios we hadn’t. I guess this is what a good judge will do, that is, to try to imagine the unintended consequences of intervening in a law or allowing it to stand. He would think about the short and long-term effects of his decision. I would hope that these same thought processes would lead him to realize that this is not enhanced cooperation, but a slippery slope for the Canadian government to embark upon, when it becomes a precedent for other nations when applying its laws extraterritorially. Justice Martineau asked Mr Gruber if he felt the decision the Canadian government made in signing on to the IGA was a policy decision. Mr Gruber said he felt that the Canadian government’s reason was “political”, but didn’t elaborate much on that.
Just a few questions to those who were there:
Does anyone recall what statute, I believe, it is that Mr Taylor was referring to when he suggested that it could be better understood if it was examined by removing the negatives from its wording? That had everyone (including the judge, I think) scratching their heads.
I’m an observer of body language. Did anyone notice that Mr Berg’s associate looked less “goonish” after the second day? Maybe, just maybe, the justice’s comments and observations had an effect on him too?
@George, you will be happy to hear that the judge didn’t seem too happy about the Mr Taylor alluding to the existence of dual citizenship (in the hybrid sense) in Canada.
@calgary411
Eventually there will be another FATCA-type law that demands collection.
It seems to me–with a layman’s mind–that FATCA as it currently exists is already a collection law. I feel that Arvay and Gruber were hoping to advance this position and I hope the judge agrees.
I mean, the things that FATCA does–demanding that people, in essence, turn over a complete accounting of their assets–are the things that collection agents do. If you owe someone money, ordinarily you don’t have to tell them everything you own. But if you default on a debt and are sued for the sum owed, you might then have to disclose your assets but only after a judgment is awarded and the suit moves on to the collection phase. In short, collection involves more than just reaching into someone’s bank account and grabbing their money–although that can sometimes be part of it. Searching for the debtors assets is a big part of the collection game.
It seems to me that common sense dictates that when you start searching for someone’s assets, you are trying to collect that money–and I hope the judge can see that common sense. Even if the USA doesn’t have the authority to directly reach into Canada and seize someone’s account (although I agree with you and others that that is coming if this isn’t stopped), there are still things Uncle Sam can do with that info to try to collect. For example, if they know someone has money in a Canadian bank account, and they know that person sometimes travels to the USA, they may use the occasion of their US visits to try to harass them for the money.
So in summary I think we are already at the stage with FATCA where the USA is engaging in collection activities in Canada but I also agree that if not stopped now it will only get worse.
Thanks for your views of the past two days, bubblebustin and PatCanadian — and thanks again for being there!!