UPDATE SEPTEMBER 19, 2015: SEE ALSO DISCLAIMER AND LITIGATION UPDATES.
[This post, which began in May and having over 1000 revisions and 2000 comments, is being retired from service and updates. It lived through the success of reaching a total of $500,000 in donations from our kind, dear supporters who had little money to give, the hope and disappointment with the summary trial decision, and the certainty that we are now finally moving on to the Charter trial.]
CANADIAN CHARTER TRIAL UPDATE:
— We have instructed the Arvay team to prepare for the “Constitutional-Charter” trial. This means that our focus now, as it was in the beginning of our lawsuit, is on the Charter trial.
Unless there is a new expense in the future that we have not anticipated, the monies from your donations will be sufficient to take us through the “constitutional-charter” trial in Federal Court. However, to pay other legal bills we will need additional donations from our supporters, and a request for donations will appear on another post soon.
OUR LITIGATION HISTORY:
One year ago, on August 11, 2014, Litigator Joseph Arvay filed a FATCA IGA lawsuit in Canada Federal Court on behalf of Plaintiffs Ginny and Gwen, the Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty (en français), and all peoples.
Because of a Government delay we initiated a “summary trial”, using a portion of the arguments, which offered the possibility of preventing private banking information from being turned over to the IRS before September 30, 2015. See Alliance’s Claims, our Alliance blog, and AUGUST 4-5 SUMMARY TRIAL FILINGS in LITIGATION UPDATES.
From Stephen Kish by email, 5:02 p.m. Vancouver time:
My children (1 special needs and I am unable to renounce on her behalf) and I thank you for what you are doing for us. I would love to be able to open a rdsp for my daughter but cannot because of the reporting requirements. I would have to declare the Canadian government grants and bonds to the US and pay the US tax. The forms are more complicated than I can do and cost to have a tax person do them would be more than the grants and bonds are worth. It’s criminal. They are purposely keeping my daughter poverty stricken. We are prisoners in this war.
Following from Osaka, Japan.
Thanks so much for the updates.
And I’m praying. To the Lady because two ladies are on the front lines.
Hail Mary….
Wow Momof2.
The 30% economic sanction was brought up by both the judge and Mr Gruber. Justice Martineau also wanted to know more about the costs our government will have to incur in providing all this info and kind of shook his head when he realized that it wouldn’t be just once, but would be ongoing. Mr Gruber really worked at impressing upon the judge that the US is offloading its compliance costs to other nations banks and governments, and offered suggestions as to how both countries could improve compliance through the treaty and without FATCA.
I was there along with Bubblebustin et al. I don’t know if anybody theorized this, but I think the crown purposely delayed a cross-examination of the last affidavit to arrive, one from Allison Christians, and the judge did not buy the story that they did not have time to contact Allison. They had 10 days and just sat on it, I think they thought they could use that to delay the summary trial. They raised some technical issue that would involve diving deeply into US law, hence more time. The judge said 10 days was lots of time, all they had to do was ask Allison a few questions over the phone. The judge seems very sympathetic to our case against the IGA as well as many other things. Arvay and Gruber were *super* prepared and the two crown lawyers not at all. A&G had like 10 thick (1 inch) documents bookmarked with tabs in perhaps a dozen places per document. I took the elevator with the Crown people (by accident) as we were leaving for the day and senior crown lawyer said he had a headache. The other crown lawyer (or maybe assistant) was frowning several times through the presentation of our case this afternoon.
My wife commented when I got back that although a victory for us does not matter for me (I renounced) it does matter for my kids who I regrettably registered their birth abroad over 15 years ago.
Good observation, Kermitzii. Can’t be easy defending the indefensible. Not out of the woods yet, though. The judge is a tough customer. At one point he told Mr Arvay that although he understood what Mr Arvay was saying, he said he would necessarily agree with it.
@all
I encourage as many as you can to comment on that Metro News article, as the writer, Neal Hall is a friend of mine. I’ve suggested he read the comments. Metro News has written about this before about a year ago, which Brock seems to have missed:
http://metronews.ca/news/canada/1124732/ottawa-sued-over-compliance-with-u-s-law/
According to Neal, Metro News is a division of the Toronto Star, the newspaper that the strong anti- FATCA journalist Tim Harper writes for.
I don’t know if it was just me but I could see the lady crown lawyer smiling and quietly laughing to her fellow crown lawyer several times. I then noticed the judge look at them when this would happen. I couldn’t tell if he was bothered by this but he did notice it more then once. I also agree with other posts about how it appeared that the judge looked surprised when hearing some of the things the Canadian government was doing to its citizens. At other times though, he seemed hard to read. He seems to be careful not to tip his hand either way at this point. Got there late and had to rush off. Hope to be back tomorrow. PS: Everyone has talked about how good Arvay is and that is true, but I was very impressed with his co counsel Gruber as well. Very smart young lawyer.
Interesting contrast in styles between Arvay and Gruber. Gruber is very cool and buttoned up, while Arvay, although very well prepared, shoots more from the hip it seems.
Maybe shooting from the hip comes with experience.
Thanks, Bubblebustin,
@ All, for convenient reference, I put a link to Neal Hall’s Metro News article on the list at the top of the “Media and Blog Articles” post.
Thanks so much to all of you in Vancouver today keeping us apprised of the proceedings! It sounds like we’re getting off to a good start!
Promising day! Thank you again Gwen & Ginny for the courage that you have displayed in coming forward
and the risks that you have taken. Thanks to S. Kish and the rest of the ADCS.
Mr. Arvay’s Tax Treaty arguments are excellent and it sounds like he and his team are putting on a great performance.
If Ginny is still around or anyone else knows … Will tomorrow be all used up by the defendants’ lawyers or will Arvay and Gruber get some rebuttal time? I think somewhere I read that they had agreed on how to divvy up the time but I don’t know how it works. I hope our attendees are finding pleasant ways to unwind from the day and look forward to more reports if they’re up to it. For me the best news was learning the summary trial would go ahead because I wanted the effort to attend to be well worth it for all of you.
@Phil: Those lawyers must consider Gerard Keddy and all the other Cons their role models.
@Bubblebustin’ What was the point the judge said “although he understood what Mr Arvay was saying, he said he would necessarily agree?” (What that supposed to be would NOT necessarily agree?)
@Blaze
I actually thought of Gerald Keddy today and how I wished he was there!
Sorry, I’m wracking my mind to remember but there was so much being covered, I can’t. Unless someone else remembers, we’re have to refer to the transcripts. Sorry, I would make a lousy court recorder.
I’m sure the Arvay team noted it. I’ll try better tomorrow.
@Embee
Our side expects to conclude early in the morning and then the Feds do their side of the case. If needed, we will have rebuttal time. Then we can expect the arguments for costs to close the day.
Then we will have to wait for the written judgment. In the meantime, let’s get that thermometer to rise!
This has been a very long day, so I am signing off now get some better sleep than last night.
Same channel tomorrow. Keep those questions and comments coming.
@BB You’re doing fine. It’s great to have eyes and ears there sharing what is happening.
How I wish Canadian court cases could be televised like American ones can be. Disclaimer: That does NOT make me a U.S. person.
I think Bubblebustin meant “he wouldn’t necessarily agree”. I think he said that trying to not tip has hand either way. He told Arvay that he understood his point, then added that doesn’t necessarily mean he agrees. I do have a question for others in attendance. There was a point where Mr. Gruber was presenting an argument and then he and the judge were talking about previous case law. The judge then stated that he thought he also made a similar ruling in 2002, but he couldn’t remember exactly. He stated he noticed neither side cited his previous ruling. Gruber said he wasn’t aware of this ruling but he would look it up tonight. I missed part of that. Was the judge saying that he may have made a decision regarding a different tax case in the past that maybe relevant in this case as precedent? That was very interesting.
Reason to have more donors involved and to dig deep:
Stephen’s latest update…
http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/
(Sleep well everyone — tomorrow will likely be another emotional roller coaster day.)
RUMOUR FROM COURT ELEVATOR: JUDGE’S RULING NOT COMING UNTIL LAWSUIT FULLY FUNDED. DONATE NOW!
Now’s the time for a raft of first time donors to rush in to help keep our hope of successful litigation afloat. PLEASE! By now you should be able to appreciate all the time, effort and emptied pockets which got this case into the court room. If you are in Canada you can be proud that we got there first and may inspire other countries to follow.
@Phil
I believe that the judge’s previous ruling would support Gruber’s argument which was very nuanced. Perhaps the Arvay team will refresh our memories tomorrow.
Does anyone know what happened? So much happening today. We had a good report from Shadow Raider’s SFC meeting too.
@All. I am so proud of the entire Team. I know none of you personally but respect you all. Gosh.
It sounds like today was reasonably successful though I understand that the show ain’t over till the Weight Challenged Lady Sings.
Can the elevator ruling be correct ? I dont understand how it is of any concern of the Judge whether we have paid the last 4.x% of the fee BEFORE he issues his ruling. That surely is a matter between our Attorneys and ourselves.
I continue to pray for God’s guidance of Team Arvay and the Judge in that Court Room.
@Bubblebustin, re; “I actually thought of Gerald Keddy today and how I wished he was there!”
(for those who don’t recognize the reference, here is part of what GK said “…Mr. Chairman, of course, what the honourable member’s really asking us to do is change how the Americans apply their own laws, which they have a right to do. We don’t have to agree with it, but they tax based on citizenship and that’s simply how it is….” https://openparliament.ca/committees/finance/41-2/39/gerald-keddy-1/
The Government side has a tough job – they have to find a way of summarizing the Cons case put into fancy sounding words that in essence it doesn’t matter whether we’re Canadian citizens residing and working and saving and paying Canadian taxes inside the sovereign autonomous territory of Canada – because well; “Congress has spoken”.
Are the defendants referring to us as “Americans abiding in Canada” yet?
Hope their claims are as feeble as the ones given in the May 2014 Standing Committee on Finance hearings into the FATCA enabling legislation obscured within Omnibus Bill C-31 ( See transcript here http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=6630513&Language=E&Mode=1 and recording here http://www.parl.gc.ca/CommitteeBusiness/CommitteeMeetings.aspx?Cmte=FINA&Mode=1&ControlCallback=pvuWebcast&Parl=41&Ses=2&Organization=FINA&MeetingNumber=39&Language=E&NoJavaScript=true ) which was in essence; “Congress has spoken” and “that’s what the US says and what the US says goes ….”.
Let us remember that NDP MP Murray Rankin had to remind the Cons that “…. We should not create a second class of Canadians with a second set of rights just because American law deems them to be U.S. persons. Even those born in Canada can be caught in the FATCA net.
Finally, this would help the government avoid an inevitable charter challenge, which I hope they would be interested in avoiding. …..”.
https://openparliament.ca/committees/finance/41-2/39/murray-rankin-1/
and he also had to explain to them that;
“..Canada is a sovereign country. Canada has rights at international law. Canada has chosen through this agreement and this budget implementation act to treat some of our fellow Canadians, even those who are born here of U.S. persons, as second-class citizens. …”…
https://openparliament.ca/committees/finance/41-2/39/murray-rankin-2/
Instead of listening to MP Rankin, here we are today, with the Canadian government ab/using our own Canadian taxpayer revenues fighting to lay bare and make vulnerable Canadian data and assets to a foreign state, the legal local assets and personal and financial information of affected Canadian citizens and residents – who are Canadian taxpayers ALL – AND, also charging the US FATCA bill to a national tab to be paid by ALL Canadian taxpayers under the IGA forever and ever.
Talk about a “tax grab” and a “tax hike” as Harper did today http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/08/03/harper-on-the-offensive-slams-wynne-and-notley.html . But Mr. Harper, that is just what FATCA – and thus the IGA, is designed to facilitate – it is the US tax grab and US tax hike on Canadian made and sited assets that he has chosen to assist.