As a child I heard my dad use this expression , “Everyone and his brother”–to say that a large amount of people will be at a certain store at a certain hour, so we were going to go at a different time.
I had to relinquish my US citizenship in 2011. I have told my sisters. One of my sisters is politically active. Neither give a rat’s tush about what has happened to me. Both are democrats. My brother doesn’t give a damn about politics and doesn’t vote. He gives less than a rodent’s hiney about my problems since he not infrequently has his own concerns with the IRS, as do all Homelanders.
Can we be surprised that the Senate Finance committee downplayed the 347 submissions regarding FATCA, most of which came from “US citizens” abroad? If we cannot get our brothers and our sisters to write to their representatives, Congress will dismiss our pleas out of hand. But how do we mobilize the members of our own family. My own experience, and what I’ve heard from others, is that our families care a little about our situation than Barack Obama cares for his own brother living in Kenyan poverty. So how do we mobilize people who think we are crazy or have their own problems and no time to put into lobbying their government on our behalf. I believe it can’t be done–but perhaps others have more empathetic brothers and sisters. I certainly don’t have siblings who empathize with my situation; apparently, neither does George Obama.
Barack Obama’s ‘half-brother discovered in Kenya, living on a dollar a month’
Facts are stubborn things. Why not focus on the those facts that are most clear
1. The United States is attempting to enforce it’s laws beyond its borders in other countries. These include but are not limited to U.S. “Extra-territorial taxation” and FATCA.
2. The United States and the United States only decides (according to its laws) who is or is not a “U.S. person” and is therefore subject to U.S. “Extra-territorial taxation”.
3. Because of point 2, the United States (with the help of the media and the tax professionals) is attempting to forcibly impose “U.S. personhood”on many who have never and do not believe that they are U.S. persons.
4. Because of point 3, many people are so terrified that they would rather pretend to be U.S. citizens (aided by the lawyers)so that they can renounce U.S. citizenship rather than assert (in many cases) their position (based on U.S. laws of relinquishment) that that are not U.S. citizens. It’s amazing – people are pretending to be U.S. citizens so that they can renounce.
5. All persons who were born in the US (regardless of country of residence) are under attack. Therefore, what unites people with a U.S. birthplace is far stronger than what somehow divides them. The USA will and is attempting to “divide and conquer” those born with a U.S. birthplace. Don’t do it for them.
United they (those born with a U.S. birthplace) will stand. Divided they will fall.
6. I have come to see U.S. extra-territorial taxation as an aspect of the “weaponization of finance” which has been discussed by Ian Bremmer, Juan Zarate and others. After, all if other countries are “harboring U.S. property”, it arguably gives Obama and the Democrats a justification to come into the country (through FATCA IGAs and the like).
7. It won’t be long before all countries realize the danger of allowing “U.S. persons” to reside in that country. As the Boris Johnson case makes clear, the U.S. is using “extra-territorial taxation” to extract capital from other countries.
8. What is important is that all U.S. attempts to impose “extra-territorial taxation” and unwanted citizenship be resisted. The various lawsuits are an important aspect of resistance. All lawsuits are important and ALL play a role. For example:
The Canadian ADCS lawsuit is important because it will motivate lawsuits in other countries. It will also make it clear that non-U.S. governments need to defend their citizens. What the Government of Canada is learning is that if it doesn’t defend its citizens from the United States, then it will have to defend itself from its own citizens.
The Bopp FATCA lawsuit is important because it is taking place in the United States. It has the unexpected side effect of demonstrating that the Democratic Party in general and Democrats Abroad in particular is clearly the enemy of ALL Americans abroad. You might be interested in this “gem” that appeared today.
http://blog.democrats.ch/2015/07/opinion-on-fatca-lawsuit.html
The anticipated lawsuit against CBT is important because it will educate about what “citizenship taxation” really is. Trust me on this. The only people who understand what U.S. citizenship taxation really is are the accountants who use it to exploit people unlucky enough to have a U.S. birthplace, which brings me to my next point.
9. This thread is about the impossibility (and I agree) of getting support from friends and family in the homeland. The problem is that they simply don’t understand what the rules are and how they really operate. In general, the issues are extremely complex and are fully understood by NOBODY. Also, they don’t care. If your dog dies its a traumatic experience. If somebody elses dog dies it’s not. There are two groups of people who will NEVER understand the level of fear, terror, persecution, unfairness and injustice. They are:
Homelanders
Residents of other countries who are not accused of being U.S. persons.
In other words, we are on our own. There is no cavalry. There is no understanding. Their is no empathy. There is not concern.
The simple fact is that you “lost the birth lottery”. There are two groups of people with a U.S. birthplace with big problems. Those living in the US and those living outside it.
What does this all mean:
First, those accused of being U.S. persons need to stick together and not divide ourselves.
Second, all efforts of opposition, education, resistance or anything else must be supported.
Thank you, USCitizenAbroad, once again.
I watched the CNN news again last night and there was this one scene that just keeps sticking in my mind. it was about the “deal” with Iran, and one guy said “Well if Iran doesn’t stick to its part of the deal, we`ll just impose sanctions again.” I think he added something about not being able to use the banking system.
That just blows me away. It makes me feel ill. America imposes “sanctions” right and left as a real WEAPON to get people to do what they want. It is abhorrent and frightening at the same time. What can the rest of the world do against such threats of “sanctions” all over the place- most of all the use of the banking system? And it is working so well for America that basically they could broaden their demands just by using this same trick over and over again.
I dont know where US expats can find any allies. Looks like there are much more pressing causes in the world like starvation and wars. But a few US persons being fleeced by their government? Nobody cares. Not even american families care enough as we have seen in this thread. Looks like the only thing one can do is to check on constitutionality and whether they are breaking their own laws, and hope for a judge who sees it that way. Its either that, or somehow other nations will object one day to the american BANKING SYSTEM which is held over their heads as a constant weapon of mass destruction?
ADCS defends all Canadians equally, whether those Canadians identify with being US persons or not. Does IBS’s support for ADCS conflict with its support for US persons abroad? I guess it depends on whether you think of those who identify as American as the enemy or victim. If those who identify as American are the enemy of Canada where will it end?
No one’s safe if everyone’s not safe.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment, Polly.
If X country doesn’t comply with our demands, we know HOW to be the world bully — we know our sanctions seem to work to keep other countries down. And, we have been further empowered in our using bully tactics in whatever country of the world as we know they all felt compelled to sign IGAs with us to have FATCA law override the laws of their own countries. We are mighty powerful. We are special. We are an entitled country over all others.
@All, I apologize for being an ass last night. I had way too many rum and cokes for which I am paying dearly today. Its not the first time I’ve wished my laptop came with a breathalyser lock out device. 🙁
@Barbara, re: “WhiteKat, do you want me to shut up because I’m not Canadian? Sure seems like it. I understand the pain you feel at mistreatment by the US government–the same pain we are all feeling–and no, yours is no greater nor more “special”, nor are you more of a suffering martyr, because you so-called “live next door to the USA”
I was not trying to suggest that you shut up because you are not Canadian. Nor do I think that my pain is worse than your pain. I am sorry what I said came across like that. However, although your pain is as real as mine is, it’s not the same pain. I don’t feel like I am being mistreated by the US government. The only government that is mistreating me is the Canadian government as far as I am concerned. I understand however, how you and others (particularly those who identify even a tiny bit as American) feel like you are being mistreated by the US government.
@Calgary, to be honest you got me a little riled up when you told me to “end what is again going way off track.” I definitely got the impression from those words that I was being told to shut up, which of course just had the opposite effect and encouraged me to carry on…sigh….not such a wonderful personality trait of mine. However, no one should be subdued by IBS admin, or by ADCS, for expressing viewpoints that differ from someone who is admin or an ADCS director. On the other hand, as I said above, I was an inebriated ass last night, so wish now I had done what you told me.
@USC, regardless how much you try to tell us that we are all in this together, we’re not in my opinion. The point I think I was trying to get at last night in my drunken haze, was ummm….not sure anymore…lol. Oh yeah, I think I was just coming from a point of being a Canadian and ONLY A CANADIAN without so much as a tiny bit of American in me. Am I the only Canadian deemed a US person by the USA, who really just could care less what stupid laws USA has? – maybe I am. The anger I feel is not towards the US. It is towards the Canadian government. Some Brockers want to change US law. Some just want Canada to protect her own. And there is nothing wrong with either of these viewpoints. Its not about being divisive I don’t think. It is about recognizing that there are different groups of persons with different fights. But that doesn’t meant we can’t support each others fights. I think its great that a group of people will be taking on CBT. I support their efforts, even though I’m not a part of it, and don’t feel like it is my fight.
@WhiteKat: Peace. If it’s any consolation, I’ve learned a hell of a lot about Canadian politics through IBS, and find myself getting hot under the collar about Harper and the Conservatives even though I don’t have a Canadian cell in my body. I’m on pins and needles about the lawsuit in just a couple weeks.
Good, the real WhiteKat stood up this morning … my stomach has a few less knots now. I’m feeling the anxiety about that very near court date … maybe we all are. I want so badly for it to go well, yet all I can do is wait to see what happens. I’m tapped out for donations but my husband thinks he can manage a bit more before the deadline.
@ Barbara and others outside of Canada
So sorry you had to see the grime and crime of Canadian politics. It’s probably always been this way but Harper has taken us down to depths we could never have imagined even a decade ago. I’m sure he had his fingers crossed behind his back when he took the oath of office because his true allegiance does not lie with the people of Canada.
@Calgary
Sadly – it feels like I have been robbed of my innocence never to be regained…..
@Bad…kitty…….
It helps to be in a far away time zone…….
My thoughts reading were………..”kitty kat has been into some bad catnip.”
This morning, I have a big smile and a big laugh……
I am straight sober and I get were you are/were coming from. I do not believe the phrase “dual nationality” can be made to work and it is sure not the law of any land. The only exception are those that also have EU Nationality and/or Commonwealth Citizenships….status recognized in law.
Someone born in the USA but a Canadian in all other respects in Toronto can be only a Canadian Citizen. This idea of being a US Citizen resident in Canada hits a brick wall at 100 mph. It can not exist within the law and it can not exist in practice. Otherwise, which toe is Canadian and which one is US?
It is on this basis that FATCA and IGAs get turned on their head.
The argument against IGAs is more effective when the argument is based on Citizenship which can only exist one at a time. Can a child born to a Catholic mother and a Baptist father be “dual religion?” Of course not, dual citizenship is just like religion, you can only have one faith at a time.
Where does that leave people who identify themselves as “dual?” I hate to be the bearer but you can be only one at one time. I can have multiple spouses…..but only one at a time.
Where does that leave long term landed USA immigrants around the world? Frankly, its hard to defend their position against the USA but….I feel they will benefit if Citizens of other countries gain the protection of their own government.
@USCitizenAbroad, “First, those accused of being U.S. persons need to stick together and not divide ourselves.”
One, never admit to being a US Person. Place the burden on others of definitively defining you/others as a US Citizen.
Second, never give other parties material that they can use to declare you a US Person.
I am not a USC, therefor it is your burden to prove otherwise….preferably in a Canadian Court under Canadian Law.
“Facts are stubborn things. Why not focus on the those facts that are most clear”
Because it’s illegal. In the US, trial courts order exclusion of facts which favour a different party than the court favours, and appeals courts invent any facts that they need to invent in order to favour their favoured party. After such rulings, any further statement of facts is contempt of court. One court even denied my motions for leave to tell the truth, twice — a few facts can be proven from the IRS’s letters, but I can’t state them because the facts are in contempt of court.
If we want to focus on facts, we’d better do it in a country where courts allow facts. Oops, that’s not Canada either, as Harry Kopyto knows. Hmm, where can we turn to? (By the way, from living in Japan I know that Japan isn’t the answer either.)
“United they (those born with a U.S. birthplace) will stand. Divided they will fall.”
That is not a fact. I’d say “United they will fall and divided they will fall” but I’m still hoping the result in a Canadian court will be different.
“There are two groups of people who will NEVER understand the level of fear, terror, persecution, unfairness and injustice. They are:
Homelanders
Residents of other countries who are not accused of being U.S. persons.”
True but actually there’s a third group:
Residents of other countries who know that they’re US persons but who haven’t personally suffered from it yet. They won’t believe it until it happens to them. Remember, before it happened to us we wouldn’t have believed it either.
“In other words, we are on our own.”
Yup.
‘America imposes “sanctions” right and left as a real WEAPON to get people to do what they want.’
Well they pretend to try, but they already know that the weapon doesn’t work the way they pretend it does. In the targeted country, the people who rule and have connections and do things which often are really despicable themselves, i.e. the 1%, do not suffer. Innocent people who were already victimized by their own countries, i.e. the 99%, suffer enhanced victimization from US sanctions.
This is why it is hoped, even by people who are not friends of the way China treats its people, that China’s system for international payments will be working soon.
“Someone born in the USA but a Canadian in all other respects in Toronto can be only a Canadian Citizen. This idea of being a US Citizen resident in Canada hits a brick wall at 100 mph.”
Oooops, turncoat in disguise. In order to hit a brick wall in mph instead of km/h you have to be either American or British.
(Or residing in one of them. Or visiting one of them. Quick, which is it?)
=== end of humorous section, unfortunately ===
‘Can a child born to a Catholic mother and a Baptist father be “dual religion?” Of course not, dual citizenship is just like religion, you can only have one faith at a time.’
Sad to see this become a religious argument, but yes you can have dual or multiple faith. Japan is a big example; most people are dual Shinto and Buddhist. About 1% of Japanese people are Christians, and I’d guess most of them are triple Shinto and Buddhist and Christian.
‘I can have multiple spouses…..but only one at a time.’
False in many countries. Even false in Canadian tax law.
I’m a practicing Buddhist. I don’t practice any other religion, but my Buddhist teaching openly states that Buddhism is compatible with other religions, and I personally know two dual Jewish Buddhists and countless Catholic Buddhists.
In contrast, US citizenship is like a fundamentalist sect: if you don’t swear allegiance to all its edicts, no matter how twisted and sinister, you suffer the punishment of living hell. Ask any Homelander reciting the benediction, “Fair share, fair share…” while throwing stones. Hell, ask the IRS. If they could get away with beheading “tax cheats” a la ISIS, I’m sure they would. And the Homeland crowds would cheer and fire their guns into the air (or inside dark cinemas).
No, US citizenship is worse than a fundamentalist sect: even if you swear allegiance to all its edicts, you still suffer the punishment of living hell. That makes up half this site, right? We get tormented together with the 1% who actually are tax cheats.
@Bubblebustin
I believe that the Democrats and Republicans hate each other to the point that each would rather have anarchy than be ruled by the other.
Until Americans realize that partisanship is ruining the country and restoring Liberty is their only choice for survival, bi-partisan issues like ours will be wildly unpopular.
What partisanship? If the US legislature was this mythical partisan body everyone seems content to believe it to be, then FATCA would have been repealed by the newly sworn in Republican Senate and Congress. Instead we have Rep. Senators voting with Dem. Senators for the revocation of passports of suspected tax cheats. If this is partisanship, I’ll eat my hat!
@Norman Diamond
“Maybe you could try turning the situation around: what would happen if the EU demanded that all Americans with a Greek ancestor contribute to refinancing Greece”
Americans of Greek ancestry would complain, but no other Americans would.
Meanwhile, the story’s been done better, mentioning someone with Kenyan ancestry.
I’ve tried just that. The reply I get is, “Don’t be silly.”.
@Duality
@jefferson d tomas
“Imposing a second system on a particular class of individuals, especially where that second system is incompatible with the local economic system, tax system, and current state of economic affairs, is unjust and results in perverse effects that defeat the market system by denying access to a level playing field for that particular class of individuals.”
Yes, it’s called Fatca, and it simply doesn’t work.
Doesn’t work for whom? The US gov. Is getting exactly what it wants.
@ foo
Are you serious about Bernie Sanders possibly being sympathetic to our cause? He supports a 90% income tax. His likely response to our cause would be along the lines of, “You mean to tell me that US citizens living outside the US can excluded over $90,000 of their income from US taxes? That won’t do, I will eliminate the FEIE.”.
@ Pink Jelly
Although I agree with your points on sharpening our argument against CBT, I fear it too will fail. Those receiving the benefits of welfare, Food Stamps, etc do not care a wit about thise who are paying for their benies. Those few who may be paying enough attention will know that there is not enough money left Stateside to continue paying for their benies and are probably quite happy that the Big O has found another revenue stream.
The homelanders paying for the benefits others receive are probably greatful that there are now others to share their burden.
@all
Ref: Benefits of US Citizenship.
Homelanders often point out that we receive protection from the US Armed Forces. In addition to the facts pointed out by others in other threads, Japan, at least, pays huge sums for “Host Nation” status of the US Forces stationed in Japan.
In my official indoctrination training required of all US naval personnel in Yokosuka before reporting to our commands, we were told that it costs the US taxpayer less for ships homeported in Japan than those homeported Stateside as the Japanese taxpayer foots much of the bill to maintain the vessels and to house military personnel and their dependents.
Therefore, I as a taxpayer in Japan pay more for the US forces stationed in Japan than the homelander taxpayer does. So do all living and paying taxes in Japan, regardless of nationality.
However, don’t expect to sway anyone with this fact. I have not been able to do so in the 20 years I have been pointing it out.
@Japan T,
Bernie Sanders is a strong civil libertarian. That’s the angle where he might be sympathetic.
I figure worth a shot, anyway.
@foo
Not sure how someone who wants to take 90% of everyone’s income can credibly claim to be a libertarian. Not a lot of liberty to be exercised on just ten percent of one’s earnings. Unless he plans to provide my coffee and beer, I doubt I would have the liberty to enjoy as much of these as I do now. But hey, if you think he really is a libertarian, go ahead. I just wouldn’t keep my fingers crossed.
Rhyme or reason wont work. We can have the best arguments ever- it wont work as long as America is blind with terrorism-panic and bankruptcy.
The only thing that could create change is if America realised that CBT is harming themselves – either by violation of the constitution and their own rights, or economically. Perhaps even more- if America is harmed economically by FATCA and CBT. And that would have to be proven with hard numbers.