We delivered! Monumental effort 2 demonstrate harm 2 #Americansabroad submitted 2 Senate Finance Committee http://t.co/carqgGs6lj #FightCBT
— Patricia Moon (@nobledreamer16) April 15, 2015
UPDATE April 16 2015
As John Richardson is the principal author of our submission, I spoke with him about the idea of turning it into an ebook. He very much appreciates all your kind comments and most of all, your positive energy. We will definitely make this into an ebook; he would like this endeavor to be consistent with our recent as well as past submissions.
With this is mind, we want to detail and describe the tragic impact of U.S. extra-territorial taxation on people deemed by the U.S. to be #Americansabroad. This would include: accidentals, (oops, non-meaningfuls, sorry Stephen, it’s a habit), border babies, via parents or grandparents or outright USCs, dual or not We want to know what you think is important, what needs to be added and so on. If you didn’t write your story before, now would be a good time to do so. Also, if you are on Twitter and not currently active or connected at the moment to our Twitter SWAT team, please get in touch with me either at the email below or tweet me at USExpatCanada. We need to be aware of this whole effort as one large, evolving submission which will serve as our base for the sole purpose of bringing down citizenship-based taxation. We want to keep moving on this project and get going on a few new aspects of it right away so stay tuned!
us.expatcanada at gmail dot com
@USExpatCanada – #Fight CBT (please start using this hashtag!)
We did it! Just as promised by John Richardson our submission to the Senate Finance Committee is signed, sealed and delivered….Remember this? :
I also made it clear that Dr. Kish and I would be taking the initiative to “educate” the Committee about:
– what “citizenship taxation” really is; and
– the true effects that it has on “Americans” (recognizing that many of you do NOT consider yourselves to be U.S. citizens) in Canada and elsewhere.
I am happy to report to you that on February 14, 2015 the videos were made as planned.
I am happy to report that on April 9, 2014 Dr. Kish and I met with representatives of the Senate Finance Committee and had a “productive discussion”.
I am happy to report that, today, April 15, 2015 our submission to the Senate Finance Committee (consisting of a total of 7 separate submissions on various topics) has been delivered. One of the submissions was the text of the “Human Rights complaint to the United Nations“. We acknowledge the tremendous work that went into the creation and submission of the complaint.
We encourage you to look at our complete “Folder of Submissions” as follows:
https://app.box.com/s/yn25x1gketbzrkqp2ghu5sbce7mqoynu
I want to remind you that this is going to be a “slow process”. Be patient. Keep yourselves focused on the “long term” goal. The key is to remain patient and focused.
For all who submitted comments to be included, please see here.
Thank you so much for all who took the time to send in your letters & comments in support of this project. Please spend time and explore all seven of the submissions as each is a very important component of demonstrating to the US government how perverse and discriminatory U.S. Tax policy is, not only against U.S. Persons, but to every country and person who is connected to one. We need residence-based taxation. We want the ability to make use of our tax-deferred savings vehicles in our countries of choice. We deserve the right to have our bank accounts free from the prying eyes of FinCen. We demand the recognition that we are not tax cheats and traitors. We insist that the privacy rights of our “alien” spouses and children be respected. For those who cannot act on their own behalf, we must have the ability to make choices free of imposed US citizenship be it from immigration or tax status.
It is time. The U.S.must start living up to its claim of being the land of freedom and opportunity. It must address its own areas of human rights violations and act in the best interests of all. We will not be satisfied nor stop until we receive exactly that.
@USCitizenAbroad
Isn’t the current Congressional enforcement of CBT in fact resulting in the destruction of US citizenship we are seeing today, the justification for these laws derived from the notion that citizenship is based in taxation, or, “Taxation-Based Citizenship”?
Congress has turned what it means to be a citizen on its head, the result of which is that the citizen becomes the servant of the government, as opposed to the reverse. CBT is like a splinter that until now one could ignore, but because of irritating acts of Congress is now festering to the point of becoming life threatening. Unfortunately because citizenship and taxation are intertwined as such (Cook v Tait) the citizen must remove him/herself from the splinter instead.
Balderdash!
@Furious AC
Did Cook v Tait not make taxation an integral part of citizenship, so that that to rid oneself of US taxation, one must renounce US citizenship?
@USCitizenAbroad
You wrote: “Remember that ACA is very clear in its mandate. It represents ONLY those who are Americans abroad. Therefore, I would NOT expect a proposal from ACA that considered the concerns of “accidentals”, “non meaningfuls” or “pure accidental tax chattels”. So, in evaluating the ACA submission we must consider their perspective.”
I think it’s time the ACA members pack up their mandate and move back to the homeland. Then I’d like to see a new member organization take over with a new mandate to represent ALL those who are deemed US taxables — even the riffraffs like the non-meaningfuls.
@EmBee – Homelanders should see FATCA in this light.
“On 1 July 2014 we lost our right to cash out of the US, move abroad and not have our assets tracked by the US Government.”
Would it be fair to say that US citizenship is liberty-based? Because if it is, US citizenship is no less taxation based than it is liberty based, at least according to USCIS’s list of rights and responsibilities as US citizens:
http://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/learners/citizenship-rights-and-responsibilities
Dreamer writes that one can still be a US citizen and not be tax compliant, but is that really true when it’s a citizen’s “responsibility” to pay US tax, and when they aren’t, threatened with seizure of assets and the inability to reenter the United States? As it stands, a US citizen is not fulfilling his/her duty as a US citizen in that case so deserves to be punished within the fullest extent of the law. Should s/he be denied the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as a result, or should life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness take precedent over taxation when there is a conflict between the two? If there hasn’t been some recognition of this conflict, how was it that Congress created tax credits and FEIE workaround for the problems that US taxation creates for Americans abroad? I’m obviously not a lawyer or an academic, and have many more questions than answers, but I know that this half-baked situation can’t stick around much longer.
Rand Paul’s got the right idea with his 17% flat tax on income earned only in the US. For those of us who can, we should support him.
Once again, BALDERDASH!
Citizens have NO ‘responsibilities’. They have RIGHTS. It is the RESPONSIBILITY of the government from whom they are given a mandate to govern FROM the citizen to govern as dictated BY the electorate ( the citizen).If a citizen is considered to have a ‘responsibility’ it is to see to it that the taxes that are collected are spent in ways that are to the benefit of all citizens IN the country. It is astounding that politicians consider the citizen to be chattel to be used in any way their career aspirations dictate instead of understanding they are there for the purpose to REPRESENT the citizen to do what they want done. NOT the other way around!
I sincerely hope and pray our submissions make a dent in the psyche of the SFC
This is also productive: As @Bubblebustin says:
“Rand Paul’s got the right idea with his 17% flat tax on income earned only in the US.”
I am also heartened by the Stephen Kish statement about what ADCS intends to do should the submissions prove fruitless at SFC.
Considering the Republican capitulation regarding EVERYTHING at this stage, it is very wise of ADCS to make that intention plain.
@Bubblebustin:
My first Balderdash! was NOT in reply to your post, although I noticed it sure looked that way.
This whole ACA submission just got my dander up!
@Bubblebustin and
@Embee: Who said:
“I think it’s time the ACA members pack up their mandate and move back to the homeland. Then I’d like to see a new member organization take over with a new mandate to represent ALL those who are deemed US taxables — even the riffraffs like the non-meaningfuls.”
Exactly!
Haha, Furious AC, thanks for the clarification.
It seems that congress has blurred the lines between what’s the citizen’s responsibilities and what’s the government’s. Time for an attitude correction.
Preparing comment on “Main” for injustices not covered, could have been emphasized, + compliments. Overall excellent.
@bubblebustin re;
“It seems that congress has blurred the lines between what’s the citizen’s responsibilities and what’s the government’s. Time for an attitude correction.”
It is clear that the US government believes that citizens exist for the benefit of those who govern, and those who fund those who govern. And that goes double for those born and/or living outside the US – who are deemed “UStaxablepersons”. They exist merely to serve the US Treasury – in whatever manner it demands and to whatever degree.
@Tim,
Thanks for the paper.
Resist no longer, says the law student author, from whose mouth issues forth the words of HarveytheFATCAfather, Mythster Stack of the US Treasury, and the anointed Extraterritorial CBT AcademicRationalizer-in-chief Kirsch ( who; “…. served in the IRS Office of Associate Chief Councel (International). From 1997 through 2001, he worked in the U.S. Treasury Department’s Office of Tax Policy, where he served as the Associate International Tax Counsel. While at the Treasury Department, he was a member of numerous U.S. delegations to international tax treaty negotiations. ” http://law.nd.edu/directory/michael-kirsch/ ). Apparently US Homelander authors and students get extra points for every time they cite him in a paper. Those are all such objective sources too (exactly what criteria did the editorial board use in reviewing this for publication?). The references to Prof. Christians work were cherry picked and the many which were contrary to the author’s thesis were deliberately excluded (for example the joint submission with A.Cockfield against Canada signing the FATCA IGA http://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.2407264 ).
Repeat after me the homelander mantra; “Cook vs. Tait”, “Cook vs. Tait”, “100 years, 100 years” and eventually you enter an altered state, and move towards the light.
I am amazed that we outside the US have been so wrong headed as to mount and fund a court challenge to FATCA and to make a human rights claim to the UN, and to complain to the Senate Finance Committee when all along, according to the author ( Ann C. Kossachev, Worldwide Taxation and Fatca: A Constitutional Conundrum or the Final Piece of the Tax Evasion Puzzle?, 25 Geo. Mason U. Civil Rights Law Journal 217 (2015) ) FATCA actually confers on us a CIVIL RIGHTS BENEFIT.
Who knew? When will FATCA Day be declared a federal holiday?
Some comments on “Main” to help strengthen the ‘platform’ to pursue the injustices.
Overall I believe the short paragraph style with lot of references and quotes is quite effective. However, with most longish articles, comments etc it is more likely to be those impacted by the injustices who will read the entire document. Others have less patience. Therefore, it is very important to front load the beginning with key points – even for The Senate Finance Committee. I am not sure how they will review the multitude of submissions. Certainly the meeting with the Senate staffers would help elevate this submission in its entirety.
The submission could have been under ADCS letterhead, or as other letters on IBS with Maple Sandbox and Isaac Brock Society logo and tag lines. I contrast to the ACA submission with their multicolored logo and tag line “The Voice for Americans Overseas” at the top. Which sounds better: two citizens saying they will take Uncle Sam to court if no changes soon, or two citizens, + IBS + Maple Sandbox (or a whole community). (Of course, not any two citizens).
The submission does not go after the Myth of the FEIE that has the homelander perception as a loophole, when it fact it is often part of a tax sinkhole. For most in the OECD the tax rates are higher so the FEIE is no assistance. Often in article comment sections this FEIE comes up with homelanders presenting it as a loophole – as if the income is not taxed in other countries.
Nice point about same “benefit” of US citizenship costs quite different in different countries depending on the tax regime of the country of residence – questioning how can the “benefit”cost so different to US persons in different countries, and suggesting a fixed cost for “the benefit.” More could have been emphasized about living in a high tax county that you pay much higher tax than if just in the US with the same income – and that is not fair.
The regulations reduce employment prospects for US persons living overseas even for US companies operating overseas.
There is no direct mention about the inherently unfair US Treasury definition of double taxation they have implanted in tax treaties around the globe, that the laws only are by each individual category of tax with no credits say from higher taxes paid on earnings to be applied against US taxes that your country does not have. Plus the US just may call the same tax by a different name and then the double tax just flows on top with no tax treaty relief.
One I have talked about is the Australian Superannuation pension accounts which the US calls “unqualified pension fund” to tax differently and to not recognise Australian taxes paid.
There is a Myth here in Australia that there is this FEIE, Australia is a relatively high tax country and there is a tax treaty to prevent double taxation so not a worry. The language of preventing double taxation has even confused the Australian Tax Office here and Australian government who think the tax treaty prevents double taxation. The mechanics of how the tax treaties “prevent double taxation” defies common sense unless one is an international tax lawyer.
Good points about married to foreign spouse then getting subjected to lower tax thresholds on NIIT etc. as one then files as Married filing separately. Point not made PFIC gains and for me Superannuation account gains get added onto income to more easily reach the thresholds.
Point made about deemed sale and illiquidity difficulty in paying the Exit Tax. Further emphasis should be on the requirement of selling assets to pay the tax and once this is done, the country of residence tax on capital gains kicks in requiring more liquidation.
There is lots of focus on the Exit Tax and probably not enough on the death tax. One may choose when they pay the Exit tax, yet death may be more unpredictable. Mentioned was the unfairness of not having the marital deduction in case of a nonUS spouse. Yet when looking at some detail of the death tax it looks even more unfair (as it assumes a $5 million marital deduction may be accessed). Above say $600k in assets. 1) For joint owned assets the spouse must prove and document that they contributed to half else the asset is assumed to be owned by the deceased spouse – too bad for the homemaker! 2) No debt is considered against the assets. At some points in life there is lots of debt, so death may mean selling the family home to pay tax to a foreign county. 3) QDOT trust provisions quite unfair if you live overseas with the provision/law assuming the spouse lives in the US. It makes financial planning so much more difficult, and is very unfair for nonUS family members getting the financial security of the family unit undermined.
Another point on US death tax – the double taxation aspect of it. The US has a death tax. Australia does not. So the US death tax applies and Australian tax would apply on sale of assets based on the cost basis of the deceased person – so death tax plus country of residence capital gains may also apply – double taxation.
Any early liquidation, foregoes benefit of deferral of tax – as in if tax is to be paid best to forego or push it out to the future, and make more on investing money otherwise paid in tax.
Good emphasis on saying that anything Foreign gets penalized, and anything Deferred gets penalized and putting them both together for persons living overseas where all assets are foreign is a big sinkhole.
Perhaps not enough emphasis that US persons living overseas get $0 in US government services; that a justification of taxation is services in exchange and without services then goes the justification = unfair.
I felt some of the quotations quite impactive, including the Forbes “Dear Son, Why you should leave America now”, and “Dear Mr President Why I Am Leaving America” were good ones. Perhaps the best was saved for the last: Jackie Bugnion in her submission to the House Ways and MeansCommittee. Deckard1138 in there. @Badger, @MuzzledNoMore, & @Lynne Swanson could have been in there as well. The Wall Street Journal article on Tricia Moon’s $455,000 in bankrupting penalties could have been in there.
I’ll accept the ACA proposalitself, although I felt the proposal document a bit lite on highlighting the injustices. I felt it addressed more directly the economic benefits to moving to RBT. While it appears those in opposition to a move to RBT like to focus on the tax impact of the change, I say that while we should also address this aspect, we should not reconize the framing of the argument in this way – as the unconstitutional, unAmerican, unfair aspects should be the proper framing of the argument.
One aspect of the ACA proposal I did not like was exclusion of death tax only after 3 years after getting a “Departure Certificate,” which one may get three years after leaving the US. That leaves 3 years of planning limbo after Departure Certificate.
Also, not attacked was the US death tax of $60,000 level for nonresident aliens – and this is a form of double taxation of death tax plus capital gains tax in country of residence, more likely to fall on departed US persons with assets still in the US/having received inheritance.
The ACA proposal mentioned getting rid of 8938 but nothing on FBAR, only about the need to file FBAR.
It Had interesting exemptions for overseas home and for US property but why not for US shares as well.
It appears that the proposal addresses accidentals while not making them central to the document. The “Departure Tax would not apply to Americans born abroad who have lived essentially all their lives overseas.” So if you live overseas they ask for a 1 page 1040NR, so is that all for accidentals?
Summary: Stephen Kish, John Richardson, and Patricia Moon are legends.
Thanks for the Australia mention. Two mentions that Australia does not have Social Security Totalization agreement. I defer to comments on the Australian FATCA page hinting that Australia has it but not New Zealand. http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Totalization-Agreements
I just read the United Nations Complaint and it is outstanding. Well done Mr. Kish and Mr. Richardson.
From Jak Dac (by email):
http://www.readyratios.com/news/taxation/2987.html —
Having an aim of producing detailed report on the options and recommendations by the end of May
***********
For those who were not reading at Brock in 2013, Jak Dak has also asked that this be advertised again — the previous 2013 submissions to the US Ways and Means Committee (many of them in all the submissions shown directed to the *International Tax Reform Group*. See and read at http://waysandmeans.house.gov/taxreform/workinggroups.htm. The original Brock post that discussed the Ways and Means submissions had 247 comments, here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/04/17/excellent-submission-to-the-ways-and-means-committee/.
Marie,
I just saw your comment. It’s wonderful that the UN Human Rights Complaint was released and finally published as part of the Richardson-Kish submission to the US Senate Finance Committee.
The hard work on that particular project was headed by MuzzledNoMore — history of timeline / updates at http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/07/28/human-rights-complaint-on-behalf-of-all-u-s-persons-abroad-has-now-been-submitted/.
Pingback: The Isaac Brock Society | Congratulations to ALL Donors to the #FATCA Canada lawsuit – Looking forward to August 4/15
Just FYI, my submission also was not published.
@Japan T Post it here: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/fatca-and-japan/
Marie,
Muzzled and her helpers deserve the credit for the United Nations Human Rights Complaint. John and I had no part in the creation of the complaint and all we did was to include it as part of our submission to the U.S. Senate Finance Committee.
We are hoping that the UN will provide some meaningful response to the complaint.
@Japan T
Your story sounds a lot like this one:
http://www.finance.senate.gov/legislation/download/?id=c971f108-daca-4d20-b450-a73b29b44284
@Bubblebustin
THAT’S IT! Thanks! I could not find it and thought all my time had been wasted. How do I find it on the Senate’s website?
I must say that I am quite surprised that you or anyone recognized it as minee. I don’t remember sharing all that much detail and much of what I did share did not seem that unique to me.
Thank you, I have really been quite down as this submission, not at all the standard I expect my students to meet, nonetheless took a lot out of me and required more than a couple sleepless nights to get it in just under the wire. Thanks again for letting me know my efforts at least were published.
@Japan T
You’re very welcome!
Yours was one of the first ones I read as I started from the bottom. It’s one of my favourites!
There are some comments on it on this IBS blog post. You can find yours under “International”:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/04/29/senate-finance-committee-posts-submissions-and-shadow-raider-reports-to-brock/
PS, Japan T, I was just guessing that it was you…