We delivered! Monumental effort 2 demonstrate harm 2 #Americansabroad submitted 2 Senate Finance Committee http://t.co/carqgGs6lj #FightCBT
— Patricia Moon (@nobledreamer16) April 15, 2015
UPDATE April 16 2015
As John Richardson is the principal author of our submission, I spoke with him about the idea of turning it into an ebook. He very much appreciates all your kind comments and most of all, your positive energy. We will definitely make this into an ebook; he would like this endeavor to be consistent with our recent as well as past submissions.
With this is mind, we want to detail and describe the tragic impact of U.S. extra-territorial taxation on people deemed by the U.S. to be #Americansabroad. This would include: accidentals, (oops, non-meaningfuls, sorry Stephen, it’s a habit), border babies, via parents or grandparents or outright USCs, dual or not We want to know what you think is important, what needs to be added and so on. If you didn’t write your story before, now would be a good time to do so. Also, if you are on Twitter and not currently active or connected at the moment to our Twitter SWAT team, please get in touch with me either at the email below or tweet me at USExpatCanada. We need to be aware of this whole effort as one large, evolving submission which will serve as our base for the sole purpose of bringing down citizenship-based taxation. We want to keep moving on this project and get going on a few new aspects of it right away so stay tuned!
us.expatcanada at gmail dot com
@USExpatCanada – #Fight CBT (please start using this hashtag!)
We did it! Just as promised by John Richardson our submission to the Senate Finance Committee is signed, sealed and delivered….Remember this? :
I also made it clear that Dr. Kish and I would be taking the initiative to “educate” the Committee about:
– what “citizenship taxation” really is; and
– the true effects that it has on “Americans” (recognizing that many of you do NOT consider yourselves to be U.S. citizens) in Canada and elsewhere.
I am happy to report to you that on February 14, 2015 the videos were made as planned.
I am happy to report that on April 9, 2014 Dr. Kish and I met with representatives of the Senate Finance Committee and had a “productive discussion”.
I am happy to report that, today, April 15, 2015 our submission to the Senate Finance Committee (consisting of a total of 7 separate submissions on various topics) has been delivered. One of the submissions was the text of the “Human Rights complaint to the United Nations“. We acknowledge the tremendous work that went into the creation and submission of the complaint.
We encourage you to look at our complete “Folder of Submissions” as follows:
https://app.box.com/s/yn25x1gketbzrkqp2ghu5sbce7mqoynu
I want to remind you that this is going to be a “slow process”. Be patient. Keep yourselves focused on the “long term” goal. The key is to remain patient and focused.
For all who submitted comments to be included, please see here.
Thank you so much for all who took the time to send in your letters & comments in support of this project. Please spend time and explore all seven of the submissions as each is a very important component of demonstrating to the US government how perverse and discriminatory U.S. Tax policy is, not only against U.S. Persons, but to every country and person who is connected to one. We need residence-based taxation. We want the ability to make use of our tax-deferred savings vehicles in our countries of choice. We deserve the right to have our bank accounts free from the prying eyes of FinCen. We demand the recognition that we are not tax cheats and traitors. We insist that the privacy rights of our “alien” spouses and children be respected. For those who cannot act on their own behalf, we must have the ability to make choices free of imposed US citizenship be it from immigration or tax status.
It is time. The U.S.must start living up to its claim of being the land of freedom and opportunity. It must address its own areas of human rights violations and act in the best interests of all. We will not be satisfied nor stop until we receive exactly that.
I haven’t delved into much of it yet, but I’m already impressed by the sheer volume of this document. This isn’t something the Committee can ignore. My sincerest thanks, Trisha, John, Stephen and everyone who made a contribution to this impressive work.
As far as terminology goes, non-meaningfuls have a relationship to the US that’s at most merely constitutional. Can anyone tell me what would particularly motivate US lawmakers to make exceptions for this group of citizens enshrined in the US constitution?
Bubblebustin Have you read the “Main” submission which is part 1 of the 7 submissions? I think there is an argument presented there for non-meaningfuls. The whole history of US citizenship and US taxation and how they became entwined is discussed.
Bubblebustin, you asked ” Can anyone tell me what would particularly motivate US lawmakers to make exceptions for this group of citizens enshrined in the US constitution? ”
A sense of ethics mixed with a smidgeon of empathy perhaps?
@heartsick
There are some really great points there, but when citizenship laws have evolved in the justification that they should be more inclusive, how can making fewer people US citizens be the solution? It’s laws that punish people for being US citizens that’s the problem, not the citizenship itself, IMO.
…that said, I guess for someone who doesn’t view themselves as American, citizenship is punishment enough…
There is the problem of the paradoxical situation that arises from the fact that someone has to first acknowledge that they are a USC in order to be granted exemption from it, under these circumstances. Can we expect Gwen for instance, to go marching down to the US consulate for her relinquishment when her justification for being exempt from US citizenship is that she has no association with the US?
Sorry for the negativity, my bitterness flares at times.. To be an expat of the USA is like being the victim of rape, and everyone knows who did it, there is plenty of evidence too but they are set free on a technicality, AND then they move into the apartment next door and repeatedly ask you out on a date.
Bubblebustin For some of us losing the citizenship is the solution, it rids us of a citizenship we did not ask for and do not want. President Obama opened the door for this discussion in his budget proposal. CBT was not enforced for many years and many were unaware of it, meanwhile the tax laws grew. I doubt the US lawmakers even thought about the tax consequences in granting more people citizenship.
It’s the enforcement of CBT that is making everyone aware of all the problems with the taxation of its citizens abroad. CBT and its excessive penalty structure is unfair and punishes those living abroad. This submission addresses many of the problems. Hopefully submissions such as this one will guide those who can provide the solutions. I hope the Human Rights complaint is spread far and wide, the US should be ashamed of how it treats its citizens abroad.
@pukekonz Many of us feel like victims, it’s hard not to be pessimistic at times. I am hopeful that the US Senate Finance Committee is truly seeking answers and not just going through the motions. I have read almost all of this submission, one has to be very hard-hearted to not see all the damage being done. Like Dreamer says, maybe some ethics and empathy?
Excellent submission! I just hope that they are listening and will take some action.
I blow hot and cold. When I read the Republicans Overseas statement I had my first good night’s sleep in a long time, feeling a glimmer of hope that if even one of their suggestions were implemented, the Damocles sword hanging over my head might not drop, and I might not have to renounce to save my life. Yet, strangely, after reading through nearly all these hundreds of pages, I tossed and turned all night. Maybe it’s because I see the deep sincerity of the authors and the humanity of every one of the quoted stories, and I want to cry about the possibility of failure for the whole blessed effort. Kind of like, you know, when a plane goes down and you feel heartsick reading all those people’s stories.
How many times in recent years have serious issues in Congress not devolved into political posturing and immature nose-thumbing? How many politicians vote on measures based on thoughtful consideration of the issues rather than on how much they hate the other party? Do they even read this stuff, or is it all just ideologue staffers combing through everything and writing cherry-picked summaries telling their bosses what they want to hear? FATCA in its present form was born as a political posture, and sometimes I feel that trying to kill it with logic and Constitutional reasoning and economic sense is like trying to kill a mauling bear with cockroach spray.
Sorry. I’m tired and emotional right now. And now that all the submissions are in to the Finance Committee, waiting for their reports will be a new torment. Meanwhile I am spreading the word. And very few Homelanders, even ones close to me, give a goddamned shit.
@Barbara
They say that CBT can’t be unhinged. That it has been around forever and they are not going to rescind. But the thing is, CBT could never really be implemented up until now. And only now is one seeing all the negative effects due to FATCA which is the tool for enforcement. Perhaps things WILL change now.
Only a few countries in the world grant citizenship to those born on their soil. And only two countries tax based on citizenship. US is the only country that falls into BOTH of these categories which results in the bizarre taxation based on birthplace mess that we are in right now. USA really cannot have both. Either make it easy BOTH to ACQUIRE and GET RID OF US citizenship, or end citizenship based taxation altogether.
In the meantime, there are two groups of people caught up in this dichotomy – one group that wants to keep US citizenship, and one group that is at best ambivalent about having US citizenship. If some sort of interim solution on the path towards ending CBT was adopted, those in the latter group would be spared a whole lot of unnecessary pain rather than having to wait for RBT which means little to them anyway since they really do not value their birthright citizenship.
This is such a massive submission that I have barely started reading through it. I would have expected hundreds of comments to this momentous post by now but I suspect that most of us are fully engrossed in reading! My sincerest hope is that that is exactly what the ladies and gentlemen of the Senate Finance Committee are engaged in as well! They simply cannot read through this submission without being moved.
The interim solution on the road to RBT that Kish and Richardson propose, is quite encompassing. In reality, if something like this were to blossom into fruition, it might not be so all inclusive, and some whom most of us would regard as ‘non-meaningfuls’ may be left out. Regardless, it is important to lend support to any who can get out sooner rather than later, even if it is a relatively small group of us.
Grateful thanks to all who contributed to conceptualizing, creating, compiling, editing, formatting and submitting this and its many parts. Truly awe inspiring endeavour. I haven’t been able to digest all of it because it it so comprehensive (had to skim portions, and re-read others – like the UN Human Rights complaint).
This may or may not move those who received the submission, but it serves another purpose. It puts them – (and our Canadian government) on notice that what they are doing has not and will not escape notice and pushback. The materials are rich sources to mine for other purposes and to be sent on to other audiences or used as references.
Perhaps a copy should go directly to those (like Mythster Stack, Harper, Con MPs) and anyone else we can think of who is in sore need of rebuttal, rebuke and re-education. And there are potential allies who need to see that if they want to be on the right side of history (I’m thinking of you Justin!) they need to step up to support the growing, organized and vocal opposition to FATCA here in Canada and in other non-US home countries.
People outside the US are doing it for themselves, but the record will show who assisted us, and who went along to get along with US extraterritorialCBT and FATCAnatics.
@Barbara and @MuzzledNoMore:
Reading through the submissions takes some time because one simply cannot read through tears. The emotions are overwhelming and all consuming. Emotions of gratitude for the monumental effort undertaken. Even the word ‘monumental’ is not adequate to describe the effort. The professionalism, the care undertaken and the comprehensive nature of the submissions, including the one to the UN Human Rights. In my view this has to be one of the most important efforts for the rights of citizens of all countries, especially those of Canada and the US that have ever been undertaken.
When it is all said and done this effort by a small group of people will stand as important in the history of man’s desire for freedom and liberty.
Equally as important as Lexington and Concord.
As important as Isaac Brock’s sacrifice ( yet as important was his PREPARATION that was essential to the ultimate outcome, beyond his personal sacrifice to his country)
The preparation that went into these submissions as well as into the ongoing efforts in litigation will also be proved to be essential to the ultimate outcome. For even though Isaac Brock died and sacrificed his young life for his country, it was his preparation that secured his country’s victory after the guns stopped firing and the dust had settled.
Having been absorbed in reading through the submissions and trying to deal with the emotional consequences it has been too much at times, so posting was the last thing to contemplate.
Yet it IS important that our champions know that we appreciate to the very depths of our souls what they have done and continue to do.
The very least we can do is continue to fund this historically important effort.
And as @Barbara says, getting the rest of the world, even family members to take this seriously is a monumental effort all it’s own!
Yet we have to continue and we have to prevail. How could we possibly falter in the funding and betray the people who risk so much to help us?
FuriousAC,
Well said and your conclusion:
http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/
What badger just wrote is so important that I have to put it in bold.
“It puts them – (and our Canadian government) on notice that what they are doing has not and will not escape notice and pushback. The materials are rich sources to mine for other purposes and to be sent on to other audiences or used as references.”
And what Furious AC just wrote is truly motivating … especially the reference to Sir Isaac Brock. Again I must bring out the bold HTML tag.
“For even though Isaac Brock died and sacrificed his young life for his country, it was his preparation that secured his country’s victory after the guns stopped firing and the dust had settled.”
The Richardson/Kish submission part (#1), the video testimonial part (#2), the written testimonial/comment part (#3), the technical parts (#4, #5 & #6) and the UN Human Rights Complaint part (#7). What a package! So we’ve got this brand new and massive hammer. We know where the nails are. Let’s go pound some. I’m sending this package to my Conservative MP. He’ll likely not read it (wouldn’t want any static to disrupt his master’s voice) but it needs to be on file anyway. You never know when some ethics and empathy will creep into his life as a parliamentarian.
I’m still working on the e-mail to my MP. I will include the individual URLs for each part of the Richardson/Kish submission rather than the overall master URL which I hope will make it a bit easier for him to navigate. I’m writing a little introduction and will probably put a short explanation/commentary to go along with each part (e.g. Part 2 — I urge you to view each of these 7 short videos to put voices and faces to the sad consequences of CBT/FBAR/FATCA). If anyone wants to do something similar, here are the 7 URLs.
Part 1 Richardson Kish Main Citizenship Taxation
https://app.box.com/s/yn25x1gketbzrkqp2ghu5sbce7mqoynu/1/3445133780/28814622792/1
Part 2 Video Testimonials of Americans Abroad
https://app.box.com/s/yn25x1gketbzrkqp2ghu5sbce7mqoynu/1/3445133780/28811128000/1
Part 3 Comments of Americans Abroad Citizenship Taxation
https://app.box.com/s/yn25x1gketbzrkqp2ghu5sbce7mqoynu/1/3445133780/28844325170/1
Part 4 The S. 877A Exit Tax
https://app.box.com/s/yn25x1gketbzrkqp2ghu5sbce7mqoynu/1/3445133780/28813060570/1
Part 5 Revenue Raising Measures
https://app.box.com/s/yn25x1gketbzrkqp2ghu5sbce7mqoynu/1/3445133780/28811599688/1
Part 6 Mutual Fund Comparison: Canada vs. United States
https://app.box.com/s/yn25x1gketbzrkqp2ghu5sbce7mqoynu/1/3445133780/28811892032/1
Part 7 Complaint to United Nations Re: United States Citizen Taxation
https://app.box.com/s/yn25x1gketbzrkqp2ghu5sbce7mqoynu/1/3445133780/28811387474/1
Holy smokes! Tell me more, tell me more, who did you meet with? This in itself is a major breakthrough and recognition of the injustices that IBS/ADCS are pursuing. Meet any Democrats? Or, just Republicans? Were any other groups involved with facilitating this such as Republicans Abroad? Also, the meeting would suggest, that yes the submission will get noticed and perhaps receive elevated attention.
Re: Human Rights Complaint. I think this may benefit by way of press release format or executive summary of the key injustices outlined, by the likes of @MuzzledNoMore or @Badger. The adherence to the compliant format waters it down a bit. Then that summary could be placed on the Human Rights Complaint page, and that page cleaned up a bit ready for me to send the link here and there.
I am thinking that the compliant could have had more about specific injustices (although @Calgary411 situation is listed). Perhaps a Tricia Moon story, makes $11K could owe $455K in penalties as reported by The Wall Street Journal.
The complaint needs to compete for mind-space against perhaps human rights complaints on behalf of people who have nothing, are starving, no shelter, are slaves, and facing genocide. US persons abroad while under terror for the most part have stuff, have food on the table, have shelter, and outside of slave provisions to the US are not slaves – so probably not as obvious a sympathy getter.
Yet a key value is this complaint going against the US, perhaps the #1 lecturer to other countries about their human rights abuses. Maybe worthwhile pointing out to the nations that get lectured by the US.
Re: Human Rights Complaint.
Also @Lynne Swanson is an outstanding wordsmith.
prweb.com $369 plan. I have not used this for a few years but it could get the release elevated in the search results under “human rights” for perhaps a few days – important to pick your day/time. The whole process would create a lot of focus on creating a good release. One may hope that it might be picked up.
On April 9th, Stephen Kish gave us this update on the “more-needed” thread.
Does that answer some of your questions? I think he has since said the talks were productive but I don’t recall any more detail than that. I’ve just e-mailed my MP the links to the submission with a rather longer introduction than I had originally intended. At least it’s “on the record” with him now.
Wish I had seen your comment on how your submitted to your MP before I had sent to mine, EmBee. I sent to my Conservative MP earlier today (with copies to other MPs I’ve sent to before and to Patrick Cain, Global News), suggesting it would be the responsible thing to do to see how a great many of her constituents are / will be affected by the IGA she voted for — that one that implements FATCA in Canada.
@ calgary411
I put “Many of your constituents welcome this submission” as the SUBJECT of my e-mail because I thought “Submission to the U.S. Senate” might make them hit DELETE and not bother opening it. I changed my Part 2 commentary to “PLEASE watch these 7 short videos which put voices and faces to the harmful consequences of U.S. CBT and FATCA.” We keep on trying, don’t we. You much more prolifically than me but writing long and effective e-mails doesn’t come easy to me.
Says “staffers” so not actual Senators. Yet I imagine some of these staffers do all the work. Was that for a particular workgroup such as “international?”
Three Democrats and 1 Republican. I would have been happier with 2 Republicans. I don’t trust Democrats and their inclination to declare they are going after tax cheats abroad, with severe consequences on US persons living overseas, because the Democrats think this plays well to their base. I see Schumer is in there, known for laws that come down hard on expats. It is good to engage. Anything over the next two years will need to be bipartisan.
Portman – (R) Ohio
Schumer (D) New York
Wyden (D) Oregon
Warner (D) Virginia
No doubt this meeting came about from a position of strength – as in legal action in Canada, the determination of ADCS, Human Rights Complaint, monumental submission to the committee then in the works (or was the submission then delivered volumously in person? Showed videos?) (+ in the US fatcalegalaction, and Republican Party platform to remove CBT/FATCA).
I see a willful non compliant participating. Did they go across the border for a meeting in D.C.? Hopefully it all guilted the staffers into the wrongfulness of the laws.
With a presidential election coming in 2016 I imagine the Democrats would not like to see legal action in Canada and the US that could expose major Democrat fumbling/incompetence in yet another area, this one FATCA.
It is the “Art of War” maneuver, bluff, strength that may avoid war in the first place. It shows that Richardson/Kish are playing a good game.