We are living a crisis of morality in which leaders have difficulty distinguishing between what is right and wrong. Today, political leaders facing a legal obstacle to their agenda believe that all they have to do is change the law. So if the government stealing from people is illegal, all that one needs to do is change the law and call it “civil forfeiture“, and suddenly it becomes morally acceptable.
I recall reading a few years back a National Post article that brought up the question of lawmaking and morality came up. Fortunately, Mark Steyn, cites the money quote from George Jonas:
Back in the Trudeaupian golden age, you may recall, the great man’s barnstorming transformation of Canada was momentarily halted by a storm about barns. It emerged that some overzealous officers of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police had burned down barns belonging to Quebec separatists. The press was briefly exercised over this, but M. Trudeau gave one of his famous shrugs and airily remarked that, if people were so upset by the Mounties burning down barns illegally, perhaps he’d make the burning of barns by the Mounties legal. As the great George Jonas commented:
“It seemed not to occur to him that it isn’t wrong to burn down barns because it’s illegal, but it’s illegal to burn down barns because it’s wrong. Like other statist politicians, Mr. Trudeau seemed to think his ability to set out for his country what is legal and illegal also entitled him to set out for his citizens what is right and wrong. He either didn’t see, or resented, that right and wrong are only reflected by the laws, not determined by them.”
The Honourable Stephen Harper, Prime Minister of Canada, is a moral embarrassment. Before he forced the FATCA IGA into law, it was illegal for the government of Canada, based on national origin discrimination, to give the financial information of Canadian citizens to a foreign government. But it is still wrong to do so, and it doesn’t matter how many laws Harper forces through Parliament, it will remain wrong.
Sorry, he’s not for sale. He’s pretty much a fixture in our home. I was considering “beaning” Harper in the head with Pet Rock, but I don’t want to abuse our pet rock.
With regards to that, I think the better part would be insuring that Harper gets voted out of office. Let’s just hope that who we replace him with isn’t worse than Harper though at this point in the game, I find it pretty hard to find a candidate for office worse than Harper.
@Johnny
You didn’t say which country your friends are in, but if they happen to be in Germany they will certainly be contacted sooner rather than later IF the banks have knowledge of their “US person” status. If, however, they opened accounts with a non-US passport, don’t have a US place of birth and haven’t otherwise given any indication that they are “US persons” then they may slip through the cracks. I can’t comment on the likelihood of being “discovered” in other EU countries.
@notamused:
I didn’t want to name any specifics but I can tell that they live around Europe. Certainly, UK, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Hungary
If I am correct one has Canadian place of birth (so non-US) and others were born here in America. But I also know that they applied for foreign documents (dual citizenship) and maybe that some of the documents don’t show the place of birth?
@ Johnny
It’s just a matter of time.
The FATCA witch hunt is being implemented in stages ,different countries are at various stages of their compliance time frames..
The first stage the banks have to identify any new accounts that are being opened with any US person identifiers.
The second is to identify and report any US existing accounts with over $200,000 dollars (now or past).
The third is to identify and report any accounts over $50,000.
Many banks will find it cheaper and simpler to set up their data bases to report all US person accounts regardless of the amount. With threats of a 30% withhold on their US business it is the way many of them will go.
@heidi:
You say “Many banks will find it cheaper and simpler to set up their data bases to report all US person accounts…”
Could it happen that the banks would simply find it easier to report the entire clientele to the U.S. bureaus regardless of citizenship? I guess that’d be way easier for them, it could also be done by mistake, at that point they will make a lot of people mad.
@Johnny
What a thought……. I can just imagine the IRS drowning in all that information.
I am not sure legally where the banks would stand as at present non US persons still have a modicum of bank privacy. The banks may lay themselves open to lawsuits (if anyone can afford to take them on.) But it looks like bank privacy will soon be sacrificed once CRS gets going.
The OECD agreement commits many countries to implement a new single global standard on automatic exchange of information (“CRS” or “GATCA”). Which means banks will ask where you are resident and then any bank accounts you may have in another country will be reported to your resident country(where you pay tax.)
The US has not signed this agreement as they have their own baby FATCA where they are not committed to reciprocity and beside that they do not work on resident based taxation.
Yeah, why don’t we just flood IRS will a lot of junk, useless information?
@Johnny
Instead of doing something like that… they won’t give a damn… people flood the lawsuit with funds so we can all say… see the bird… US… so please one & all…. donate… donate to the canadian lawsuit since we are the only game in the world that is real right now… time to slap the piss out of the US…
@ US_Foreign_Person :
I am thinking of contributing something, but is it happening on 100% ? What is the chance that it will pass? Furthermore, how is it going to affect somebody who do not live in Canada? I am guessing that in case of success only Canada will become safe harbor from the IRS…
@Johnny
Suit is working its way through the courts now… Attorneys & ADCS board is doing what they are doing…. Here is the donation site…
http://www.adcs-adsc.ca/
Basically we are standing up to the Gov’t.. don’t matter where u are… if there is enough people that find out.. start filing their own lawsuits or whatever in different countries… Overseas Republican supposedly will file their own lawsuit in the US to stop this crap soon… so far… all u hear when u hear… Fatca… is fat cat & rich people… nothing about us at all.. info out there is mis-leading… Donations come in world wide… its the little people pulling together… not one of us has deep pockets… whatever anyone can donated… it helps… No deep pocket donor has jumped in… we have made every single milestone set up for payment to the law firm… we will make the next one also… with a few dollars or whatever amount anyone can afford… moves us closer to the goal… Some on this mb have been generous… donating time & time again… money they may not be able to afford or giving up something to donate… which we all appreciate.. greatly… so please donate whatever u can… we can’t fail… for me… I worry about the next generation… I don’t want the stupid mistakes I made be hung on their necks…
@Johnny:
I don’t live in Canada either, but my husband and I have donated. This isn’t about Canada alone. It’s about setting a precedent. If the intergovernmental agreement between Canada and the US Treasury can be struck down, then it could start a domino effect of similar lawsuits or legislation in other countries. If successful, it can also add fuel to the flames for those inside US government who are trying to repeal or modify FATCA.
And if you’re worried about donating to something that will never happen, you’ll note that ADCS does mention refunding money to donators if the lawsuit doesn’t go ahead and the money isn’t spent.
Sometimes you have to give money or time to an important cause just because it’s right, even if the outcome is uncertain.
Thanks, Barbara, to you and your husband, for donating though not living in Canada. I agree with what you say in that if Canada is successful with this legal challenge, it can, indeed will, pave the way for other countries doing the same.
If we can all contribute as much as we are able to make this happen because it is the right thing to do, to stand up for the rights of all US-defined US Persons Abroad, it will turn into a sure thing accomplished. There are times best to go our own ways but this, to me, is not one of them. Now is the time to come together with the strength of numbers to say the combination of US citizenship-based taxation and the implementation of FATCA law in other countries is wrong and short-sighted for the US.