Phil Hodgen stands high among the few tax/law “professionals” in the U.S. expatriation sector that I have respect for. Hodgen has just shared this precious pearl:
The real risk is uncertainty and fear.
If you wish, go on to read the whole classic answer that is distilled into this pure nacre.
The coda, also a quotation: In the long run everyone pays the price. Sauve qui peut.
A much more sensible approach than from our friend here:
http://www.taxconnections.com/taxblog/irs-actively-seeking-us-tax-dodgers-abroad/#.VP80EYhHarU
More guffaws for the gloaters I guess. Might be “advice” for some but it’s of no value to me. Old age is my friend, not Hodgen.
All things being equal and nothing ever changing to make the absurdity of US citizenship-based taxation go away, Phil Hodgen is giving the consequences that need to be weighed for those who ARE NOT “accidentals” and / or “others and accidentals” who have gotten a US social security number (probably through their parents’ initiative on their behalf when they were still minors), thereby never having been able to file a US tax return — as a SSN is a requirement.
He seems to leave it to the reader how to conclude their individual decisions if they ARE “accidentals” who have never gotten (one way or another) a US social security number..
The rest of what Phil Hodgen says is just what many of us say here — nobody can give you your own answers. Everyone must make their own decisions based on what the consequences of each chosen action might be, combined with one’s own level of risk. He helps you here with the thinking process you need to undertake by showing the possible consequences for each choice you might make.
I found this article helpful and really liked the way Phil Hodgen clearly laid out the possible consequences of each of the three options.
Thanks usxcanada for posting this link.
I read both of these articles. My conclusion……
Boy, did my wife ever lose the birth lottery. I wish I knew this before I married her……it NEVER would have happened. The USA is a PRICK!!!
I like the three choices approach indicated by Phil Hodgen. Not that any of the choices are fair or easy, it just seems to make things more clear.
The benefit of choice three is “You can move around the planet without fear”. That is the best benefit I can think of. As far as “You can do business and invest in the United States without fear”, I would wish to avoid this as much as possible. No more business with the US for me.
The USA will not last much longer as it is. It has shot itself in the foot and will soon be an ordinary economic country struggling to survive as no one wants business with the US anymore and even great american companies are moving their headquorters out of the United States.
So be it… That is where to much greed leads to.
or a 4th choice…….do nothing and never cross the border into America again. I do my banking at a “local client based” institution and have spoken to the person who looks after my RRSP’s and they don’t care where I was born.
I have made peace with myself that I will never be able to set foot in that country ever again. if I ever receive an IRS envelope I will wait for the next one and then the one after that as well.
uncle sam can come find me but I sure as heck am not going to stand up and wave my hand that “here I am” we I to do any sort of filings with the IRS.
I moved to Canada in 1966 and became a citizen in 1980. I did nothing wrong at the time by informing the americans that I had become a Canadian. they did not care then and I don’t care now.
I refuse to play their silly game.
I will donate yet again to the law suit!!!
Mettleman is a genius!
Bravo, mettleman, for setting up for yourself and being at peace with what will work for you!
If you want to not stay hidden… go ahead.
It’s simple – ‘You can’t future proof FATCA.’ FATCA 2015 will be different from FATCA 2018 as the US Government, AT WILL, changes the rules and requires more and more data. The next big move will be a move to real time FATCA moving away from annual reporting.
The US tax system makes employers report income every week. That’s where we’re heading.
There’s nothing else to understand.
mettleman is completely right. There is precious little they can do to him. He has nothing to fear but fear itself ( FDR). Many others should take heart.
@mettleman, Some at IBS now my backpath, I too have come to peace at a very great price.
Tears, yes many then and many today.
Regrets, none.
In 1776 those who stood up against the tax monster of the day had fear, sure, but they did not give in to it. If they had, my heros Washington and Adams would have swung from a rope. Our ancestors died in that battle. It would be dishonouring their memory not to resist the current tax monster.
my decision was not an easy one. my wife and i have had many enjoyable experiences on our road trips throughout the american west. we had many places that we wanted to visit but now have had to revise our life plans.
i have no family left in america nor any business reason to travel their either.
it to a while for me to think this through but really how is america going to find me unless i tell them who and where i am. they lost track of me many many years ago.
so what if that brown irs envelope arrives and i ignore it and then another one shows up and i ignore that one as well. the CRA has already stated they will not help the irs to collect fines or taxes against a canadian citizen as long as that citizen was resident in canada when the “debt” arose.
i am a CANADIAN citizen and uncle sam can kiss my a@@ because i am not going to make it easy on him if he wants to find me.
in 1980 president carter was making rumblings about reinstating the draft because of the iran hostage crisis. it was at the point being 18 i realized i wanted nothing to do with being subject to the draft and in april of 1980 i took the oath before a canadian citizenship judge swearing an oath to the queen.
america pre 1995 (i think) did not require you to notifiy the state dept of what you were doing with reguards to citizenship. i have done nothing wrong so why should i live my life in fear of the dreaded brown envelope showing up.
i am comitted to the cause of seeing FATCA in canada and with any luck world wide put back into its box where it should stay.
i am very vocal in my comunity about how the sitting gov’t in canada sold out 4 million of us to the americans and bring FATCA up at any chance i get.
without IBS i would have been one of the sheep in the clutches of the compliance condor’s. thanks to the information and umpteen links provided by brockers it has enabled me to make a decision that works for me and me only.
everybody caught in this facta web has a different twist to their story and each one of us has a reason to make a totaly unto themselve unique decision.
it has taken me several months of sleepless nights and anger to reach the place i am now at. i am at peace with my decision and what will come will come.
i refuse to make it easy however 🙂
@mettleman
It sounds like unless, after taking the oath, you did something like renew your US passport, vote in a US election, file US taxes. etc, you’re home free. You relinquished long enough ago that all the tax nonsense doesn’t apply. You’re only really at most missing a CLN, which should just be a formality. Why not get the CLN and live an unconstrained life? Am i missing something?
Right on, Mettleman. Everyone of us who refuses to play their stupid game just increases the odds that the IRS will not be able to do anything. If I ever get a letter I intend to scribble “no longer at this address, return to sender” and drop it into the nearest Canada Post mailbox. (Or maybe just the garbage.)
Whenever I get mad about it I just send in another donation to ADCS and find immediate relief. I expect the only chance of eventually eliminating CBT lies with a worldwide expat tax revolt. There will undoubtedly be casualties in this long fight. I don’t intend to be one of them
@tdott. “Why not get the CLN and….” ?
I can’t speak for mettleman, but I can tell you why I don’t get one. I refuse to set foot in a US Consulate with all their obnoxious security, intimidation, and bureaucratic nonsense. Besides, it amounts to painting a bulls-eye on your own chest by presenting yourself in front of a US government official.
I don’t have to ask their permission to not be a US citizen. That’s just more playing by their rules which, as we have seen, has no upside.
Phil Hodgen is a good guy but he seems to miss the fact that many CANNOT AFFORD to become compliant, but feel obliged to renounce to avoid bank accounts being closed and mortgages being called in (cf. Switzerland).
We are not all non-working spouses without incomes who have an “easier out”.
Paying upwards of $30,000 in accounting and lawyer fees to prove you owe nothing, in order to renounce with peace of mind, is the sign of a system that has gone mad. There comes a time when one must refuse to play ball.
much like maz57 stated
“I refuse to set foot in a US Consulate with all their obnoxious security, intimidation, and bureaucratic nonsense. Besides, it amounts to painting a bulls-eye on your own chest by presenting yourself in front of a US government official.”
i have no reason to get a cln other than to satisify a foreign gov’t that i no longer trust. i have no reason to ever have anything to do with the america so why would i present my self to their consulate so that they can know who and where i am.
once the american know who and where we are what is stopping them from yet again changing the rules to their favor and thereby creating more hoops to jump through.
naaaa i have made my bed and am fully willing to take what comes my way for doing so even if it means my inability to return to a country that holds many fond memories.
there is a whole world that wants my tourist dollars out there to create new memories
“
@Lyoba
Well said- a system gone mad.
@tdott I played the game by their rules in 1973 when the U.S. Consulate told me I was permanently and irrevocably relinquishing U.S. Citizenship by becoming a Canadian citizen.
I followed the rules of that game for four decades until suddenly they decided to unilaterally try to force new rules of the game on me.
They are the cheaters in changing the rules of the game to suit themselves without even listening to referees like Nina Olson.
I won’t play on their home field ever again. That includes not going anywhere near a U.S. Consulate. Why? I don’t trust them.
I also have medical issues that make travel to a U.S. Consulate challenging. So do other people.
If they had made the Supreme Court decision of 1986 public then, I could have simply walked a few blocks to the U.S. Consulate on my lunch break when I was living and working in Toronto. I had no idea there was a document called a Certificate of Loss of Nationality then.
As Petros recommends, I will keep my a** and my assets out of the United States of Arrogance. I never thought I would see the day when I was grateful that my mother had died so I would not need to visit her. That is what the U.S. has done to people with the full cooperation of Canada and other countries around the world.
I also have moved all of my assets out of Canada Trust (now TD) after banking with them for 34 years because their website says they will only accept a CLN as documentation someone born in the U.S. Is not a U.S. Person.
My new credit union does not care where I was born.
I, too, stand with Mettleman and with my ancestors who fought at Concord and who died at Valley Forge. It’s not comfortable but I know exactly how it feels to be me. Nothing in this world ever changes unless people step out from their comfort zone and stand in defiance of injustice. That is, indeed, Choice #4.
Lyoba,
Hear, here!!!