Americans unable to open financial accounts. In CANADA!
28 seconds ago
Expats: Americans unable to open financial accounts. In CANADA! Pls RT. pic.twitter.com/luSoli0jTO
— U.S. Expat Canada (@USExpatCanada) February 21, 2015
While I don’t believe this is the first instance, I think we should start keeping a record of these and will look into a sidebar link so the discrimination is all in one place.
@WhiteKat
I’d be hesitant to advise anyone to do what I wouldn’t do myself.
@Bubblebustin, Agreed, yes.
Isaac Brock society mentioned in article in Philippines!
http://business.inquirer.net/187213/us-foreign-account-rules-raise-concerns
@Don @Old English
An IBS of Europe already exists. It’s called the IBS. People living all over the world look to, and contribute to, this website. Yes, the FATCA legal challenge is specific to Canada but it is international in spirit. I and MANY other non-Canadians have been donating to it.
@Steve
The IGA overrides other Canadian law but its not a global override. Bill C-31 states that “in the event of any inconsistency between provisions of this act or the agreement and the provisions of any other law … the provisions of this act and the agreement will prevail to the extent of the inconsistency.” The phrase “to the extent of the inconsistency” is the important part, it means that the override only happens if there is an actual conflict between the laws.
Item 9.16 of the Final Guidance issued by the CRA states “The implementation of the Agreement in no way requires of encourages financial institutions to refuse to open an account or to otherwise deny service.” So the IGA does not require it, the Access to Basic Banking act forbids it, therefore there is no conflict and no override.
@star @don @old English
At IBS we do have the country specific posts pages. On the Swiss one I proposed a William Tell Society but it was suggested that using such a mascot would piss off the Swiss. Yet IBS has done the same with the figure of Isaac Brock and I don’t hear of the Canadian public at large being upset about this.
Many Swiss Brockers are as much Real Swiss as canuk Brockers are Real Canadians. What right don’t we have to be inspired by figures from our own country’s history?
I have the utmost loyalty to IBS. I have sent so may lost people here and we gave them glimmers of new hope. But just like when Maple split off because some folks wanted a slightly different approach, it can only help our movement if we replicate our DNA from time to time– with a few mutations.
Just imagine where we would or wouldn’t be if we were all relying on the PC ACA which does good work but wouldn’t defy the (unconstitutional 1,9th amts USConst) Logan Act to join myself and others in warning the Swiss government about the disaster they were agreeing to?
We need an IBS sister org for Europe. I propose we dub it Continental Congress, hence implicitly linking our motives to the Declarations of 1776 and 2013.
Then we need comitees in each country because local laws and constitutions are all different,. especially for Norway, Lichtenstein, Switzerland and the like that are not EU members. The UK and Denmark and Sweden might also be special cases, UK not part of Euro or Schengen, and Denmark and Sweden not in Euro: there may be specifics in the Euro or visa regime -enabling legislations that could help or hurt us that are not in effect in non Euro EU countries.
Members of the Continental Congress could still be Brockers, Sandboxers, ACA and ADCS contributors. But if we want to get an ADCS-like movement off the ground in Europe we need our own org. IBS and Maple will surely be forums for such a CC, just as we would broadcast info about IBS Maple and ADCS so everyone can find an org or set of orgs that they want to participate in.
@ jefferson d tomas
Go for it … the farther this spreads the better. I hope we’ll soon be seeing an EU movement because it’s best to prod the beast from more than one direction I’d say.
Following
Are you deleting comments here? Earlier today I posted a comment in which I referred to a petition at the white house related to this topic.
Why was my comment deleted? Censorship here??
Oh, I am sorry I am taking it back. Noone deleted anything, I just commented on different thread. My bad.
The link that I was talking about is here. We need 100k signatures soon.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/tax-us-citizens-residency-and-not-citizenship-remove-fatca-requirements-we-already-pay-taxes-abroad/dwZ1c5wL
A Newman / Albert,
You commented under a different name (which people are asked not to do here – using different *aliases*) at the post that has the same link at the top of the post: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2015/02/18/why-are-americans-giving-up-citizenship-cnbc-international/comment-page-3/#comment-5611157
You are correct — signatures are needed and soon. Will we see, as earlier petitions, they just have not been effective? Hopefully everyone here will sign the petition you refer to. Thanks.
I contacted Canadian Direct Financial and asked why they are discriminating against U.S. citizens. I pointed out that many have been Canadian citizens for decades or for life.
Here is the response I received:
Lynn, the question needs to be “why they are discriminating against Canadian citizens that are considered citizens of the USA a foreign government, against the will of said Canadian Citizen.”
@Lynne and George:
I also sent correspondence to Canadian Direct Financial which asked that question (“why they are discriminating against Canadian citizens that are considered citizens of the USA a foreign government, against the will of said Canadian Citizen.”). Please see last line of my email to CDF below:
“This inquiry is in reference to your application process indicating discriminatory practices. Please note the following from Canadian Direct Financial online application. It is in response to a “yes” answer regarding citizenship.
“Unfortunately Canadian Direct Financial is unable to open accounts for U.S. Citizens or U.S. Residents.”
I am a Canadian citizen who has renounced US citizenship. Renouncing US citizenship is a complicated, painful and costly process. As a participant in the Maple Sandbox and Isaac Brock Society websites, I would like to know why you are discriminating against US citizens. There are many Canadian citizens with US connections trying to deal with FATCA and extraterritorial taxation by the US.
When the question of citizenship came up on your online application, I could truthfully answer “no” to being a US citizen. The fact that you are asking the question caused me to terminate the process. As with many others, I will keep my business with local credit unions exempt from FATCA. On principle, I would not open an account with a financial institution asking this question which excludes certain Canadians on the basis of national origin.
Please let us know why you are excluding Canadian citizens and residents who also happen to be US citizens from opening an account with Canadian Direct Financial. Thank you.”
I hope to get a response which clarifies this.
Canadian Direct Financial must be a pretty small, lean operation because whenever I phone them it is often Lawrence Lorimer who takes the call. They are a strictly online, no bricks and mortar, pared to the bone operation. As such I can understand why they have made a business decision to not step into the US taxable person minefield. They most likely simply can’t afford the costly accounting, computer systems, and extra employees necessary to handle the relatively few potential US customers, not to mention the risk involved. As Mr. Lorimer pointed out, CDF’s parent, Canadian Western Bank, is willing take on US tainted customers, so they do offer a reasonable option.
I don’t blame CDF for trying to safeguard their small business. I blame the the ones who are really responsible; the US government for coming up with FATCA and the Canadian government for enabling it in Canada.
I liken the situation to back when I had my auto repair business. We had a strict policy; we refused to work on British cars. Why? Because whenever we did it took twice as long, invariably ended in tears, the result was unsatisfactory, and nobody was happy (not to mention not making any money). We finally learned it was best to just give it a pass before we even started. Were we discriminating on the basis of national origin? No, nothing personal; we were just concentrating on doing what we did best, a successful repair, having a happy customer, and running a profitable business.
Now that I’m fired up I’m going to send off another donation to ADCS so we can sue the bastards and drive a stake into the heart of this abomination. Meanwhile those who don’t mind can just answer “no” on the application and open their account. (Which is a lot easier than trying to pass off your MGB as a Honda, LOL.)
@maz57 Great last line to sum up your post. You got a laugh out of me. Thanks you made my day.
I wonder if things in Canada will get as bad as they are in Europe, where even former USPs are not allowed to open accounts at some banks because their birthplace is in the USA.
Here is a response I got from them. The first issue is how the form asks if I am a resident of Canada; and when I answer NO, it still asks if I am a resident of Quebec, which is not necessary because Quebec is still technically part of Canada for now.
Here is a response I got from them. The first issue is how the form asks if I am a resident of Canada; and when I answer NO, it still asks if I am a resident of Quebec, which is not necessary because Quebec is still technically part of Canada for now.
Good afternoon Mr. Alciere,
Thank you for your comment. We will make the necessary revisions.
Canadian Direct Financial (CDF), a division of Canadian Western Bank, is focused on providing our clients with responsive, personalized service in our selected areas of expertise. The information and documentation required to open an account for a citizen or resident outside of Canada are prohibitive to providing the responsive, personalized service our clients expect. U.S. citizens or residents who would like to do their banking with our institution can do so through Canadian Western Bank. We offer personal and business banking service through 41 branches across Western Canada.
Sincerely,
Lawrence Lorimer
Manager Canadian Direct Financial
Suite 3000, 10303 Jasper Avenue
Edmonton, AB T5J 3X6
Phone: 877 441-2249
Fax: (877) 441-2250
CDF_Android-454×142-2
CONFIDENTIALITY CAUTION
This message, and any documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you.
From: CDFClientServices
Sent: February 23, 2015 2:18 PM
To: Lawrence Lorimer
Subject: FW: account opening page
—–Original Message—–
From: [email redacted]
Sent: February 23, 2015 6:28 AM
To: CDFInfo
Subject: account opening page
Your account-opening form has defects. First, it asks if I am a Canadian resident, and when I answer NO, it still asks if I am a resident of the Province of Quebec. Since the Province of Quebec is still technically part of Canada, a person who is not a resident of Canada could not be a resident of the Province of Quebec, which makes the question unnecessary.
It has not escaped the notice of Isaac Brock Society
(isaacbrocksociety.ca) that you refuse to open accounts for Canadian citizens who, under a foreign law, are residents of a foreign country.
Tom Alciere
I sent an email on the 22nd and have not heard back. Though after reading the responses so far, it seems I’m likely to get the same response that others seem to be getting.
I’m certainly not approving what this bank is doing though I think maz57 raises some good points as to why a small operation would decide to go this route.
However, please note they aren’t asking where you were born. They’re asking if you are a USC or a US resident for US tax purposes. The question as worded does not, AFAIK, contravene Section 15 of the Charter, which prohibits discrimination on ethnic or national origin. Citizenship and tax status aren’t the same as ethnic or national origin strictly speaking, and I very much doubt a Section 15 challenge against that question wording would go anywhere in court. (People who aren’t Canadian citizens are in fact discriminated against, legally, in Canada, e.g. they can’t vote in a Canadian federal election, they don’t qualify for most federal jobs, I don’t think they can serve in Parliament, …)
As someone else noted, these folks have obviously listened to a lawyer on how to word that question. You may not like the question, but I doubt a court challenge against it would get any traction.
Now, asking where you (never mind your parents) were born, is another kettle of fish … But that isn’t what they’re asking here.
Focus on the court case we do have, and on the current government which surrendered our national sovereignty to the IRS. This particular set of questions IMO is a bit of a distraction from that.
https://www.highinterestsavings.ca/chart/
Read the web page
Please note a lot of these accounts are not available to Quebecers.
There a lot more Quebecers than American in this country.
Do you hear anything about lawsuit from Quebecers?
Does that tell you something about these not being basic bank accounts?
CDF does not offer these accounts to Quebecers.
@Schubert1975 – but they are discriminating because they don’t ask if you are a Canadian citizen, just if you are a US citizen. They should ask “are you a Canadian citizen/resident?” and if the answer is yes, then the rest should be moot.
They’re asking if you are a USC or a US resident for US tax purposes.
to which I would reply “no” because I am a Canadian citizen who is tainted by americaness
my accountant and I had a similar conversation when we were first talking about FATCA 18 months ago and he said “I don’t have any American clients” and when I asked him how he knew he said “on our new client forms we as for the persons citizenship.”
I said yes and for mine I put down “Canadian” because that is what I consider myself and yet here we are having this FATCA conversation.
he has since gone back and revised his question to include all citizenships held.
@GwEvil
I’m not a lawyer, but while I agree from a political standpoint the question should only be are you a Canadian citizen or resident, and I agree they are discriminating against US citizens and US residents for US tax purposes, I don’t see any Section 15 violation in the latter discrimination. The Charter doesn’t mention “citizen” or “tax” anywhere (I did a word search in the PDF download for the entire document). And unfortunately the enabling legislation says the IGA over-rides any other Canadian legislation that might contradict it (except as I understand it Parliament can’t say that re the Charter, but it can on other legislation). Again, this is a political issue, which was decided by a Tory majority vote on the omnibus budget bill. I have my doubts about whether a question such as the one worded above could successfully be challenged in a Canadian court. But that’s a legal question, and I don’t think this particular question is being addressed in the court case. Though I could be wrong on that.
Perhaps this is “shaving fleas” as a former colleague of mine loved to say, but that’s what lawyers and judges do for a living.
I’d be a lot more disturbed if the question had been “were you born on US soil” never mind “were either of your parents born on the US soil.” Those clearly are Section 15 violations IMO, as is the instruction in the IGA and enabling legislation for banks and the CRA to report account information in cases where there is an “unambiguous indication” of a US birthplace, per se. If the IGA and the enabling legislation had been limited to “unambiguous indication of US citizenship” I think the court case would have been harder to argue, at least on Charter grounds. But I stress, I’m not a lawyer.