Americans unable to open financial accounts. In CANADA!
28 seconds ago
Expats: Americans unable to open financial accounts. In CANADA! Pls RT. pic.twitter.com/luSoli0jTO
— U.S. Expat Canada (@USExpatCanada) February 21, 2015
While I don’t believe this is the first instance, I think we should start keeping a record of these and will look into a sidebar link so the discrimination is all in one place.
While we ripple around on this shiny new thread, the questions keep coming. When more people start getting those nasty bank questions it will mean even more questions for Brockers (if they find us). Here’s some questions, just from today …
ProudCanadian: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/fatca/comment-page-125/#comment-5609019
BorninCanada: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/expat_tax/comment-page-96/#comment-5608990
Swanee: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/09/19/question/comment-page-8/#comment-5608428
The UK government owned bank National Savings & Investments has barred US citizens opening a number of its accounts, including the desirable so called Pensioner Bonds offering a high rate of interest (4% for four years fixed) specifically targeted for those aged 65+. So you may be a UK citizen, spent your whole working life here, be retired here but barred from benefitting from something open to all non US tainted residents. I have written my MP several times about this discrimination – deafened by the silence.
@Aussie Dan –
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens-and-Resident-Aliens-Abroad
Wasn’t aware they’ve closed offices. The Beijing office was closed at the end of Nov 2014.
According to their webpage they now only have offices in Frankfurt, Paris, and London.
London and Paris are at the Embassies, and Frankfurt is at the Consulate. The hours are limited.
Paris is M-F for 3 hours a day, London is for 6 hours a day Tues-Thurs, and Frankfurt is only 3.5 hours on Tuesday.
Paris and London offer walk in assistance, and Frankfurt is by appointment only.
Also you got to remember that you’ve got the double whammy of holidays where they’ll probably not only observe US holidays, but also the ones in each respective country. So there’s another 20 or 25 days of downtime.
At the end of the day 90% of US ex-pats (I mean long term who have no real financial links to the US except for a crappy SS cheque they may get in future) probably plan to ever comply with the IRS so from their point of view there’s probably no need to expand service. Screw the ex-pats let them hang on the telephone for hours on end with some Homelander who assumes when you say you live in Birmingham (they assume Alabama) or have no idea how to spell Zurich or even which country it’s in. But hey they can always resort to Google Map to compensate for their clear lack of Geography or language skills other than perhaps Spanish.
@Old English – If an IBS Europe of sorts existed (and had a creditable group of people – Academia, Solicitors, IT guys, PR, Marketing, etc with independent auditable accounts) would you give?
Conversations need to be made with the ACA as well. They game plan is to comply with the US and keep their fingers crossed FATCA can be reformed someday. An IBS Europe’s mission should be to re-instate EU citizens financial rights who have ‘US taint.’. Obviously different missions but the ACA needs to wake up to what’s going on and get more aggressive. Appeasing the US is not going to work, forcing the EU to re-instate EU citizen’s rights seems to be a better bet.
@Don
I would love to see an IBS equivalent for the EU. I have my CLN and, unfortunately, shallow pockets, but am nonetheless 100% behind putting an end to this injustice. I would be supportive in any practible way within my talents and means!
@Bubblebustin.
“Anyone know the penalty for willfully misrepresenting your status to the bank?”
The penalty is they will open a bank account for you.
@Maz.. Wish we could all ask Martin Luther King what the penalty was for not sitting at the back of the bus….
@Bubblebustin
*Anyone know the penalty for willfully misrepresenting your status to the bank?*
Umm… u won’t get that free pen or bank jail? I will lie to a bank if I have to… This will get worse… we won’t be able to save, borrow or anything if we don’t stop this… Banks my family has been doing business with over 40 yrs have started to question everything we do with our accounts… even a few thousand dollars… be very careful how u answer questions… some of them are trick questions… only answer what they ask… do not explain yourself… I felt like I was crossing customs the other day when I had to take some money out from a bank
Discrimination by national origin as well as nationality has no place in the 21st century, but the Fatca choo-choo train will just carry on anyway…
A few questions…
1. The United States naturalisation fee is set at $680 whilst the United States renunciation fee is set at $2,350. The State Department argued that the main reason for the price increase for renouncing was due to the “arduous” administration of consular services caused by the increase in demand. But wouldn’t United States naturalisation require “arduous” administration as well (e.g. due diligence, background checks, etc)? My logic suggests that if you increase the price for a service (and especially at to $2,350 — a truly despicable amount), then there must be a stratospheric demand to renounce American citizenship. Which begs the question, are the U.S. Treasury and State Department being honest by saying that the total number of renunciants is trivial compared to the number of incoming immigrants? Someone really ought to investigate them. Unfortunately, there is no oversight of John Kerry and his cronies.
2. The “Internal” Revenue Service is an oxymoron. How exactly is extraterritorial Fatca an internal matter? US Persons (whoever they might be) are duly paying their taxes wherever they reside. And how exactly is worldwide citizenship-based taxation an internal matter? To me, “Internal” implies “within one’s own sovereign borders,” so, logically speaking, residence-based taxation would be practiced.
3. Shouldn’t all candidates running for the American presidency be required by law to prove knowledge of American history? Doesn’t Obama know the root cause of the American Revolution? Probably not, as he was too busy smoking marijuana (as per his admission).
If there is any ONE thread here on IBS that would make me triple my next donation, this is it! Canadian rights and protections have been destroyed.
I can’t open a bank account in the Netherlands, where I now live. Am dual UK USA but of course my British passport and driving licence show I was born in the US.
I’m going to the IBS meeting in London on the 2nd – hope every other UK dual will be there as well. I’ll support anything we can get going here. Especially an EU-wide protest. I’ve written my MP but haven’t heard back yet. Apparently he’s useless. I’m planning to renounce if things don’t get better, but will continue to back IBS and everyone else who’s trying to get rid of this tax gestapo.
Tricia: I will be adding this information about Canadian Direct Financial to addenda for the U.N. Human Rights Complaint. Thank you for finding this!
@Old English,
As @Help says, if you are in the area you might want to make it to John Richardson’s meeting on March 2 in London. John is our ADCS-ADSC co-chair and our legal counsel.
Thank you for your offer of support!
@Stephen Kish @Help
Yes, I am planning to attend. I’m about 70 miles away so do-able for me by train. I hope there is a good turnout.
I heard that if you lie to a bank in Switzerland about being a U.S. Person, it is criminal tax evasion. We expect to be accountless this year.
@Old English – IMO even getting the CLN doesn’t solve everyone’s problems. FFIs will still single out you and you’ll have to submit to the ‘US Person Biopsy’ every time. If you hold a UK passport, why on Earth should you continually have to prove you’re not American?
Also if the bank cocks up and sends off you data, you’ll have no recourse against them. Remember they’ve had everyone sign away their data protection rights and you’ve agreed they’re not responsible for errors.
If a legal challenge is mounted, I’d say which country is a consideration. What would be the implications of a legal challenge working its way through the English Courts if the UK votes itself out of the EU?
These are questions that would need to be answered.
At the end of the day the onus to report needs to be taken back off the banks and put back on the resident UK / EU citizen as before. Also all resident citizens are treated equally in terms of the tax system. That’s all we want.
I’m with Orwell. Why risk criminal charges while rewarding your bank with the use of your money? If you really want to give your bank the finger, withdraw your money.
@Don
Yes, I have already had the interrogation by my building society and had to produce my UK passport and CLN. At least it had the decency to use its own simple form rather than the IRS ones. I have accounts in 2 other FFIs which don’t appear to have done their which hunt as yet. In one I have ISAs only so they SHOULD be exempt from reporting in any case. But I have my doubts. Whatever, I am in this for the long haul.
@Old English – It’s going to be interesting starting in early 2016 when EU rules come into effect guaranteeing all resident EU citizens access to a basic bank account. EU banks won’t be able to turn away an EU with US indicia.
My got feeling if a legal challenge is made in an EU court, a European Court would not be very sympathetic to FATCA discrimination.
Positive discrimination based on place of birth as now implemented by these countries – in particular the EU countries- should be challenged in court. As in Canada it will have to be a grass roots campaign. It’s a long up hill battle now to regain the rights that have been taken away by these governments at the behest of the US
The Canadian “Access to Basic Banking Services Regulations” explicitly list the conditions under which a bank may refuse to open a retail deposit account.
Those conditions are:
(a) Suspect the account will be used for illegal purposes.
(b) Applicant has a history of fraud.
(c) Applicant has made a material misrepresentation to the bank.
(d) To protect themselves/employees/customers from violence or harassment.
(e) They don’t actually open accounts at that location.
Please note that citizenship is not one of those conditions. As long as you provide proper ID and you don’t meet any of the exclusions they are required to open the account.
Furthermore the refusal to open the account must be accompanied by a statement how to contact the “Agency” to complain. The “Agency” is not defined in this act, I am assuming it’s defined elsewhere.
The only possible excuse is that the Act refers to applying at a physical location, Canadian Direct has no physical location.
The text of the act may be found at http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/SOR-2003-184.pdf
@Just A Canadian
I haven’t looked at the link you provided, but based on what you are reporting, there are ample grounds to refuse accounts to U.S. citizens:
(a) The position of the U.S. government is that ALL accounts opened by U.S. persons abroad will be used for illegal purposes.
(b) If a U.S. citizen in Canada has any previous bank account anywhere, that would be evidence of fraud (because it is a U.S. citizen with a bank account that was presumptively used for illegal purposes).
(d) To have a U.S. citizen client invites at least harassment (and if the 30% withholding penalty is violence) and possibly violence from the U.S. government
So. quite frankly, I see no reason why any Canadian financial institution should be required to deal with a U.S. person.
In other words, lying is your best bet.
@Just A Candian – My understanding is that just as for Canadian privacy legislation, FATCA overules all other Canadian laws that might conflict with it – except the Charter….