#FATCA-Just Another Form? http://t.co/vZVDHXx2Yj Welcome to the Universe of the Condor- “Wonderful World of Forms, Threats and Penalties”
— Patricia Moon (@nobledreamer16) November 26, 2014
@USCitizenAbroad posted this comment on Brock but I am giving the comment its own thread so that it is not lost.
Even though Canadians rounded up and turned over by FATCA to the IRS are advised NOT to go to these people for help, for example, on whether they should or should not comply with laws of of a foreign government, or whether they are in fact a U.S. person, some will go stampeding to “Form People” for that first pass advice.
Form People (also known as “compliance condors” or “compliance vultures”) are mostly honest and hardworking, but they live in a special world — a world in which forms are sacred.
@USCitizenAbroad says this about Form People:
A ComplianceCondor wakes 2 “In forms we trust”.The most dedicated actually have FORM DREAMS http://t.co/vZVDHXx2Yj 8621 in 3D technicolor!
— Patricia Moon (@nobledreamer16) November 26, 2014
“Tricia and Stephen,
You are absolutely right when you say that “Wonderful World of Forms, Threats and Penalties” is completely normal from the perspective of the Compliance Condor. In fact, for most of them, the completion of forms is the fundamental obligation of citizenship (or at least U.S. citizenship).
Furthermore, very few of them see the system of taxes, forms as penalties as being immoral. They just see it as normal.
One could say that the Compliance Condors work “within the system”. But, the truth is that the Compliance Condors “Are The System”.
They make it work. They shape the law. They shape the expectation of the law. Once one Condor begins filing a specific form (example 3520 for the TFSA) the other Condors are sure to follow.
Because Condors are “Inside The Form” looking only at the Form, they can’t imagine what it means to be “Outside The Form” looking in. They can’t see the immorality, the injustice, the waste of human resource and the dehumanizing of the individual. In fact the Compliance Condors “aid and abet” each of these things – they take pride in doing it.
But, there’s much more.
In the “Form Industry” there is a hierarchy of forms. Those who are most experienced assist with the most complex forms.
Imagine the day in the life of a Compliance Condor when he/she reaches the point where he is assigned a 5471 [anyone out there own a Canadian (i.e. “foreign”) corporation?] or an 8621 [how about a single share of a passive investment company?].
After all, those who are most junior would start with an FBAR or perhaps a schedule B. The value of a Compliance Condor is a function of the forms to which he is entrusted. His sense of “self worth” is defined by the form that he is assigned.
A Compliance Condor would start the day by looking the mirror and saying:
“In forms we trust”.
The most dedicated Condors dream of Forms.
But, they do more than dream about Forms. Because their identity is a function of their forms, many of them go further than dreaming about forms. Those who are most dedicated actually dream about being specific line numbers on different forms . In social settings they confide about their dreams to other Condors.
In the industry, these are known as “Form Dreams” .
So, yes when the Compliance Condors write about FATCA, FBAR and other sacred instruments of confiscation, they are being sincere. They believe are being helpful.
They are NOT being dishonest And above all else, they are simply writing about the world they way they see it and the way they experience it.
And that Dr. Reader is exactly the problem!
P.S. Avoid “Form Crime” – The Compliance Condors will love you!”
— THIS SAINTLY MAN, revered by all FORM PEOPLE (and by the happily IRS compliant worldwide), is the CREATOR of the FORMS:
Lol, EmBee. Better than the original, I think. I can almost hear the finish, “THEY LOVE FORMS!”
@ Admin
Please delete my comment above so I can repost with a major spelling correction. Thanks.
What’s it like to midwife the birth of a form? Bill Yates, a former attorney with the IRS describes the process of developing FATCA form 8938 in painful detail. Warning: may contain scenes of graphic bureaucracy:
“Suffice it to say it a long and sometimes excruciating process, requiring endless meetings. By the time an attorney finally gets a project “dropped” at the Federal Register for publication, he or she is about ready to “drop,” as well.”
http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2013/07/01/fatca-interview-with-bill-yates-former-attorney-office-of-associate-chief-counsel-international-irs/
Bear witness to the birth of a new form, the W-8BEN-E:
The Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) imposes a new layer of withholding rules on U.S. persons making payments of U.S. source income to foreign entities. The FATCA withholding rules require a 30% nonrefundable withholding tax on certain payments of U.S. source income to foreign entities that fall within specifically defined categories. Payors of U.S. source income to foreign entities need to obtain the new Form W-8BEN-E from the foreign payee in order to document the payee’s FATCA status and substantiate exemptions from this withholding obligation…
Read more about this latest eye-glazing, mind-boggling wonder here:
http://www.ksmcpa.com/news-blog/new-fatca-withholding-rules
@bubblebustin, all the best IRS/Treasury forms come with built in pitfalls, sandtraps, quicksand, nooses, etc.
All should be marked with a safety warning:
“incomprehensible” “handle with extreme caution” “life altering consequences”
Pingback: The Isaac Brock Society | $45,473 more needed in 30 days to make the February 1 2015 payment for Canadian FATCA IGA lawsuit/ Il nous reste 45 473 $ à ramasser pour notre poursuite judiciaire
Pingback: $45,473 more needed in 30 days to make the February 1 2015 payment for Canadian FATCA IGA lawsuit/ Il nous reste 45 473 $ à ramasser pour notre poursuite judiciaire | Maple Sandbox
Pingback: The Isaac Brock Society | Court approves #FBAR Penalty – Known Unknown issues addressed but still likely unknown
Re Badger’s and Bubblebustin’s comments above:
Are there really some IRS forms that are not “intuitive” but yet must be made “on time”?
Part of U.S. Tax Court ruling filed April 26, 2017:
“…We acknowledge petitioner’s military service to this country and recognize that he emerged far from unscathed from his tours of duty in Afghanistan.
We understand that the procedural requirements for making a timely FEIE election are not exactly intuitive and that the scars petitioner incurred during his military service may have contributed to the tax delinquency at issue.
While these facts may be relevant to the penalty and additions to tax that the IRS determined, they do not alter the requirement of a timely election.
As to that requirement we must give effect to the regulations that the Secretary has issued under his delegated authority from Congress and to this Court’s prior construction of those regulations.
That being so, we unfortunately have no alternative but to hold that petitioner did not make a timely and valid FEIE election for 2010. He is therefore not entitled to exclude from gross income any foreign earnings under section 911…”
From Hodgen:
https://hodgen.com/redfield-v-commissioner/